Line Combos: If Marleau plays in the top nine, which forward from 16/17 Leafs is pushed down?

biotk

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Whether Lucic/Maroon can play is debatable. There is never a guarantee that some nutbar trying to make a name for himself doesn't take a run at one of the kids but you can bet without Martin the number of attempts will be higher. I only recall Dotchin going knee on knee on Matthews and Sestito elbowing Andy last year as the major cheap sots. I think Kadri gave more cheap shots than the opposition gave the Leafs.

Let's wait and see what the lineup looks like in October to find out who Leaf management agrees with.

I agree. The Leafs rookies played with amazing confidence from the start, and the top 11 Leaf scorers missed a total of 10 games to injury/illness. People are free to assume that Martin had absolutely nothing to do with either of those facts (people who think that Martin's influence on opposing players only occurs when he is the ice) and that Martin's 2.5M salary returned 5 goals and 4 assists, but management disagrees.

How much does an injury to Matthews/Marner/Nylander cost the team? How much would you pay to reduce the chances of such an injury? And it doesn't have to be an injury that results in missing games. How much does 82 games of being worn down by constant crosschecks and other cheap shots cost? How much does it help the team if the stars are getting say 30% less of that? If I were the Leafs I would easily pay 2.5M and 9 minutes a game on the fourth line (it is not like the Leafs are desperate for offense anyway). That Martin played all 82 games last year is a pretty strong indicator of where the Leafs organization stands on this matter.

"Well, we don't get our faces washed very much," Babcock said when asked about Martin's influence thus far. "No one takes advantage of us, so it's kind of nice. If you're a kid, you haven't had to worry about that one bit."

"He just doesn't let anyone get smacked," Babcock said. "It's real simple for us. We've got a bunch of kids; I don't want them getting cross-checked and abused. We haven't had any of that because he looks after it."

"Well, it's huge," Leafs head coach Mike Babcock said last Friday when asked about Martin's impact. "I mean, we don't get slapped around ever. Last year, we got abused."
 
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saltming

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Common sense: Hyman.

Babcock: "Anybody but Hyman"

I think this narrative has no substance yet. If Marleau plays up to scratch I'm sure Babcock will slide Hyman down. If Babcock doesn't then we can start saying Babcock's son yada yada.
However if Marleau has no chemistry on that line, it sure wasn't broke with Hyman so why would you force a piece in there that doesn't fit? :dunno:
 

Trapper

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I think this narrative has no substance yet. If Marleau plays up to scratch I'm sure Babcock will slide Hyman down. If Babcock doesn't then we can start saying Babcock's son yada yada.
However if Marleau has no chemistry on that line, it sure wasn't broke with Hyman so why would you force a piece in there that doesn't fit? :dunno:

I'm not sure what kind of chemistry Matthews/Marleau will have.
They are both shooters though, it may work better on different lines.
40 goal scoring Matthews should be taking the bulk of the shots.
 

Eternal Leaf

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I think this narrative has no substance yet. If Marleau plays up to scratch I'm sure Babcock will slide Hyman down. If Babcock doesn't then we can start saying Babcock's son yada yada.
However if Marleau has no chemistry on that line, it sure wasn't broke with Hyman so why would you force a piece in there that doesn't fit? :dunno:

He'll never test it.

Hyman is playing with Matthews from game 1 to season's end. Book it.
 

saltming

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I'm not sure what kind of chemistry Matthews/Marleau will have.
They are both shooters though, it may work better on different lines.
40 goal scoring Matthews should be taking the bulk of the shots.
Which is why my personal thoughts are he Marleau will excel with Marner.
He'll never test it.

Hyman is playing with Matthews from game 1 to season's end. Book it.
Maybe but if it's for the above reason; that Marleau has no chemistry on Matthews line then it's about what make the best team no?
Hyman Matthews Nylander was one hell of a line last season.
 

GrizzLeaf

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If Babs wants to see Matthews and Nylander to put up bigger numbers this season, you put them together with Marleau. For at least the beginning of the season to see if they can all click together.

This becomes such a dangerous line that teams have to try and match against them allowing the Leafs second line gets a lot more breathing room and allows them to add more secondary pts.
 

kb

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Aug 28, 2009
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I agree. The Leafs rookies played with amazing confidence from the start, and the top 11 Leaf scorers missed a total of 10 games to injury/illness. People are free to assume that Martin had absolutely nothing to do with either of those facts (people who think that Martin's influence on opposing players only occurs when he is the ice) and that Martin's 2.5M salary returned 5 goals and 4 assists, but management disagrees.

How much does an injury to Matthews/Marner/Nylander cost the team? How much would you pay to reduce the chances of such an injury? And it doesn't have to be an injury that results in missing games. How much does 82 games of being worn down by constant crosschecks and other cheap shots cost? How much does it help the team if the stars are getting say 30% less of that? If I were the Leafs I would easily pay 2.5M and 9 minutes a game on the fourth line (it is not like the Leafs are desperate for offense anyway). That Martin played all 82 games last year is a pretty strong indicator of where the Leafs organization stands on this matter.

"Well, we don't get our faces washed very much," Babcock said when asked about Martin's influence thus far. "No one takes advantage of us, so it's kind of nice. If you're a kid, you haven't had to worry about that one bit."

"He just doesn't let anyone get smacked," Babcock said. "It's real simple for us. We've got a bunch of kids; I don't want them getting cross-checked and abused. We haven't had any of that because he looks after it."

"Well, it's huge," Leafs head coach Mike Babcock said last Friday when asked about Martin's impact. "I mean, we don't get slapped around ever. Last year, we got abused."

This is very well put. No one can quantify his value adequately. What he brought to the team was the presence that allowed the kids to be who they were, and that was be a team with a bit of swag. They felt safer. They weren't abused on a nightly basis. Take away Martin, and it is safe to say they take more abuse.
 

cupcrazyman

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The easy answer seems to be just slotting Marleau into Hyman's spot

Marleau Matthews Nylander
JVR Bozak Marner
Komarov Kadri Brown
Martin Moore Hyman

We'll see how Marleau fits into the lineup come training camp though or maybe a trade is made.

Marleau-Matthews-Marner 27g,40g,19g
JVR-Kadri-Nylander 29g,32g,22g
Komarov-Bozak-Brown 14g,18g,20g
Martin-Moore-Hyman 5g,11g,10g
 

Buds17

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As things stand, I guess Hyman would switch to his natural RW position and go to the 4th line. Thought there'd be a pencilled in the lineup forward traded, but who knows if that'll happen. Marleau will definitely be in the top 9 though. Don't see Komarov (or even Brown) on the 4th line either.
 

Menzinger

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I think this narrative has no substance yet. If Marleau plays up to scratch I'm sure Babcock will slide Hyman down. If Babcock doesn't then we can start saying Babcock's son yada yada.
However if Marleau has no chemistry on that line, it sure wasn't broke with Hyman so why would you force a piece in there that doesn't fit? :dunno:

Yeah, I think folks are underestimating how much babcock likes Marleau - his comments after Marleau signed here were absolutely overjoyed
 

saltming

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Yeah, I think folks are underestimating how much babcock likes Marleau - his comments after Marleau signed here were absolutely overjoyed
Trapper had a good point that Marleau might not find chemistry with Matthews though as they both like to be the trigger man which brings back Babcock comment that Hyman is on that line because of the lesson he learn from dats and Zetterberg; they want someone to get them the puck because they always want it on their stick.
I think a line of Marleau Bozak and Marner will be really good. We will have a solid 1 2 3 combo punch for the season. All 4 lines will be well balanced and we should be better overall in our own zone.
 

gabeliscious

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Jan 8, 2009
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marleau matthews nylander
jvr bozak marner
kapanen kadri brown
martin komorov hyman
moore/leivo
 

Menzinger

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Trapper had a good point that Marleau might not find chemistry with Matthews though as they both like to be the trigger man which brings back Babcock comment that Hyman is on that line because of the lesson he learn from dats and Zetterberg; they want someone to get them the puck because they always want it on their stick.
I think a line of Marleau Bozak and Marner will be really good. We will have a solid 1 2 3 combo punch for the season. All 4 lines will be well balanced and we should be better overall in our own zone.

But then where does JVR go (admittedly via trade would be ideal), because I can't see Babcock wanting to put him beside Kadri and get the toughest usage.
 

saltming

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But then where does JVR go (admittedly via trade would be ideal), because I can't see Babcock wanting to put him beside Kadri and get the toughest usage.

That's the million dollar question.
Pending a trademaybe her slides down?
JVR Kadri Komo?
I think it's awesome we have too many good players to play in the top 9.
 

Menzinger

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That's the million dollar question.
Pending a trademaybe her slides down?
JVR Kadri Komo?
I think it's awesome we have too many good players to play in the top 9.

So Brown goes down to the 4th line?

It's definitely a good problem to have. But if Babcock wants to have a "shutdown" line go forwards (ie how the Kadri line was used last season) I have a hard time seeing JVR be a good fit there.

This discussion is likely a good reason why management tried to trade JVR already this offseason
 

Mess

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While JVR remains a Leaf it would seem that Hyman would be the one that would likely fall out of the top 9 to make room for Marleau.

However it might not have the effect the Leafs hoped in the form of Mathews ES goal production.
 

Menzinger

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While JVR remains a Leaf it would seem that Hyman would be the one that would likely fall out of the top 9 to make room for Marleau.

However it might not have the effect the Leafs hoped in the form of Mathews ES goal production.

Though as long as the line as a whole produces the same or even more I doubt the Leafs as an organization care of Matthews individual rate mildly declines.
 

saltming

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So Brown goes down to the 4th line?

It's definitely a good problem to have. But if Babcock wants to have a "shutdown" line go forwards (ie how the Kadri line was used last season) I have a hard time seeing JVR be a good fit there.

This discussion is likely a good reason why management tried to trade JVR already this offseason
Agreed on all points.
Maybe Babcock will try to spread the defense through the line up?
 

meefer

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Asking Marleau to play 1st line minutes at his age when Babcock is going to want to play Matthews line more than last year just doesn't make sense, unless you believe in the fountain of youth. Marleau's on ice time has been trending down the last three years, as has his productivity. What makes anyone think he can magically recapture those minutes? He's gone from 19.35m/game 3 years ago to 17.09 last year. I suspect Babcock will wish to play Matthew's line at least 19 m/game this year, up from his 17.38 last year. Where does Marleau get the legs for a 2 m/g increase at his age? Ok, for a 10 game/20 game period of time, maybe, but over the course of a season I don't see it being viable.
 

biotk

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Asking Marleau to play 1st line minutes at his age when Babcock is going to want to play Matthews line more than last year just doesn't make sense, unless you believe in the fountain of youth. Marleau's on ice time has been trending down the last three years, as has his productivity. What makes anyone think he can magically recapture those minutes? He's gone from 19.35m/game 3 years ago to 17.09 last year. I suspect Babcock will wish to play Matthew's line at least 19 m/game this year, up from his 17.38 last year. Where does Marleau get the legs for a 2 m/g increase at his age? Ok, for a 10 game/20 game period of time, maybe, but over the course of a season I don't see it being viable.

This confuses total ice-time with ES ice time. While Marleau's ES ice time has been falling, it has not fallen dramatically like his overall time has (mainly due to a change from significant PK minutes to none). Marleau's average ES ice time last year was 14:04, which would place him 4th among Leafs' forwards after Matthews (15:05) Kadri (14:19) and Marner (14:17). You might notice that three of them played on different lines, as ice-time differs between linemates due to who goes on first when changing on the fly (generally Matthews, Kadri and Marner) and who goes off first (generally not Matthews, Kadri or Marner). Hyman, Nylander, and Brown all played fewer ES minutes per game last year than Marleau did. McDavid played an average of 17:17 at ES last year - none of his linemates (Maroon, Drai, Lucic etc) came anywhere close to that.

If Matthews increased his ES ice time to 16 minutes, it would not be a problem for Marleau to play alongside him and only play 14.
 

A1LeafNation

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I'd like to see these lines in camp:

Hyman Matthews Brown
Marleau Nylander Kapanen
JVR Bozak Marner
Komarov Kadri Soshnikov
Martin Moore Leivo

Babcock said Marleau can take left handed draws...does that mean Nylander will take the RH draws? And Nylander has chemistry with Kapanen.

5 lines get to show their stuff.
 

meefer

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This confuses total ice-time with ES ice time. While Marleau's ES ice time has been falling, it has not fallen dramatically like his overall time has (mainly due to a change from significant PK minutes to none). Marleau's average ES ice time last year was 14:04, which would place him 4th among Leafs' forwards after Matthews (15:05) Kadri (14:19) and Marner (14:17). You might notice that three of them played on different lines, as ice-time differs between linemates due to who goes on first when changing on the fly (generally Matthews, Kadri and Marner) and who goes off first (generally not Matthews, Kadri or Marner). Hyman, Nylander, and Brown all played fewer ES minutes per game last year than Marleau did. McDavid played an average of 17:17 at ES last year - none of his linemates (Maroon, Drai, Lucic etc) came anywhere close to that.

If Matthews increased his ES ice time to 16 minutes, it would not be a problem for Marleau to play alongside him and only play 14.

Thank you for the input. I was using Hockey Reference and they didn't have the ES breakdown. However, do you not think that Marleau's usage at 14 min/ will likely - only because of age - decrease yet again this year? Yes, he's a wonderful skater, but time waits... . Though, your point helps me accept that he may be better able to fit with Matthews than I previously thought, especially as Babcock is very good at changing his line combinations during a game, when he wishes to do so.
 

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