Speculation: If Leafs Brass view Nylander as a Winger

[Nithoniniel]

I am simply fed up with posters like yourself and others stating that this was a 7 game issue and keep saying that he is in the same level as Marner when that is not true at all.

Well, the first part has never been said, we've said it's a flaw of his but that it was never as bad as it was in the series, and as for the second part... you are pissed off because we like one of our top young players to the point that you feel the need to disparage him every chance you get? Why?

ignoring that seems to be irrational and a rational person admits it.

Nobody is ignoring it. Rationality dictates that you measure the impact of that flaw and evaluate it accordingly. That's what we've been trying to do.

That is why I've, for example, compared how in shambles his game was in these playoffs compared to how it's been at any other point in his career. Something that you, ironically, ignored.

 

[diceman934]

But my point is that he does take hits to make plays. I see it all the time. Perhaps your bias is tainting your view?
I couldn't count how many times he gets stapled in the corner fighting for the puck behind the net.
And if you've never seen a player pull up when they know they are about to get nailed for a puck they won't get to, I really don't think you're watching hockey. It's called being smart

Lol start watching games and you should be able to figure it out. I have no bias against him. I have an issue with his compete level as does his own coach who constantly stapled his ass to the bench when protecting leads as simply will not do what it takes to help the team win. Block a shot be physical and most importantly take a hard check to make a play. He fails to even go to a 50/50 puck when he may have to take a big check. He took this to a hole new level this year against physical teams and it the playoffs it was embarrassing so.

It is called being soft not smart. Giving up possession because of fear is not smart.

 

[diceman934]

Well, the first part has never been said, we've said it's a flaw of his but that it was never as bad as it was in the series, and as for the second part... you are pissed off because we like one of our top young players to the point that you feel the need to disparage him every chance you get? Why?


Nobody is ignoring it. Rationality dictates that you measure the impact of that flaw and evaluate it accordingly. That's what we've been trying to do.

That is why I've, for example, compared how in shambles his game was in these playoffs compared to how it's been at any other point in his career. Something that you, ironically, ignored.

I am not attacking him every chance I get but responding to people quoting me and defending my position.

I have always maintained that he avoids checks as he has always done so. When it is to the point that it hurts the team which severely affects our team negatively I am going to post my opinion about it. It is a fact that he played scared and it cost us and if that is irrational then I guess I am guilty.

This all started because I stated that there is no way I would sign him to a long term contract as he has a serious flaw in his game which he does. I said let’s sign him to a short two year deal to see if he can improve his flaw and as well as possibly a center and if his flaw remains then and only then trade him. Sounds rational to me.

 

[saltming]

Lol start watching games and you should be able to figure it out. I have no bias against him. I have an issue with his compete level as does his own coach who constantly stapled his ass to the bench when protecting leads as simply will not do what it takes to help the team win. Block a shot be physical and most importantly take a hard check to make a play. He fails to even go to a 50/50 puck when he may have to take a big check. He took this to a hole new level this year against physical teams and it the playoffs it was embarrassing so.

It is called being soft not smart. Giving up possession because of fear is not smart.

I agree he needs to toughen up a bit but you are way over the top with your view on him. If he was as soft as you portray he wouldn't be playing in the NHL
As for the coach stapling him to the bench when protecting a lead I think that has more to do with his defensive liabilities as opposed to your thoughts on his softness

 

[Knightnight]

I can see us running three lines with rather even minutes while the fourth line gets few in comparison. Playing him on the third line would allow him to invoke havoc with those offensive skills you mentioned against depth lines. If we can get the depth working well enough to build three strong lines, it could be quite the weapon for us.

Um no he won't. You don't wreak havoc from Babcocks 3rd line. For one he won't get the icetime as Babcock has slowly been increasing 34s line over the past 2 years and Kadri's line plays a lot against other teams top lines. Secondly you will always be looking over your shoulder to run to the bench because Babcocks incessant line matching. He will get 10 seconds 15 seconds ... Hard to get a flow. Thats what happened to the Bozak line for the past 2 years. Look at JVR Bozak and Marner ice time this year compared to even last.

 

[Nithoniniel]

This all started because I stated that there is no way I would sign him to a long term contract as he has a serious flaw in his game which he does. I said let’s sign him to a short two year deal to see if he can improve his flaw and as well as possibly a center and if his flaw remains then and only then trade him. Sounds rational to me.

Nothing wrong with it.

Um no he won't. You don't wreak havoc from Babcocks 3rd line. For one he won't get the icetime as Babcock has slowly been increasing 34s line over the past 2 years and Kadri's line plays a lot against other teams top lines. Secondly you will always be looking over your shoulder to run to the bench because Babcocks incessant line matching. He will get 10 seconds 15 seconds ... Hard to get a flow. Thats what happened to the Bozak line for the past 2 years. Look at JVR Bozak and Marner ice time this year compared to even last.

A big reason why the third line is getting less and less ice time is because he hasn't trusted the third line we had. Babcock has historically liked to roll several lines, and he hasn't really gone out of his way to control the minutes for a line before as he did with Bozak and JvR.

 

[therealkoho]

You might just be the only one who has ever said that about Bäckström. And saying that Kuznetsov is some consistency away from a selke-level center like Barkov seem pretty absurd. I can't say that I agree with anything you said there.


When Matthews has had Brown on his wing instead of Nylander, his production has dropped off considerably, and his underlying metrics even more. What you said here goes against pretty much every measurement we have of what happens on the ice.


He played center almost exclusively in Sweden, except that short time with his father that you mentioned.

And he was a center at the WC until Bäckström came over. If anyone who gets pushed to the wing by Bäckström isn't a center, we don't have a whole lot of them.


Jeez. When he is absolutely engaged he could be considered to be something that his on-ice results suggest he has already far surpassed?

What's next? When Matthews has a good day, he's a decent top line center?


He would be their best center by far. It's ignorant on two fronts to suggest otherwise. Nobody who knows how the Montreal situation is would claim something like this. Nobody who actually is educated on the results Nylander has got as a center would claim something like this.

well it is your opinion and as such you are welcome to it incorrect or not

the guys who get really successful in the nhl other then Gretzky and Bossy and maybe the Sedins, are all killers with big time survival instincts, it's been that way since day 1 and it will continue to be in the future, whether this is the non-fight league matters not, it's still a mans game

a user who goes by 666 posted this last year
Auston Matthews - Full Stats, Line Combos and Game Logs
you may find it enlightening

 

[Knightnight]

So you think Willy can drive a 3rd line at centre and take minutes away from 34 (who already does not play enough minutes) or 43 who Babcock trusts. Who would be Willys dream wingers to give him this 17 minutes of icetime. Cause he won't produce playing 13-15 minutes without a couple of stud wingers. Not looking for a fight just watched how Babcock has run the bench this past 2 years. If Mathews averages 18.5 and Kadri 17. That leaves 24.5 between your 3rd and 4th line less PK. Just don't see that happening.

 

[Boutette]

So you think Willy can drive a 3rd line at centre and take minutes away from 34 (who already does not play enough minutes) or 43 who Babcock trusts. Who would be Willys dream wingers to give him this 17 minutes of icetime. Cause he won't produce playing 13-15 minutes without a couple of stud wingers. Not looking for a fight just watched how Babcock has run the bench this past 2 years. If Mathews averages 18.5 and Kadri 17. That leaves 24.5 between your 3rd and 4th line less PK. Just don't see that happening.

Why? Are JvR and Bozak going to be on the 3rd line again?

 

[Iapyi]

The obsession some seem to have with Nylander at centre is mis-placed. As of right now he is not an NHL caliber centre and I doubt he ever will be.

 

[Nithoniniel]

a user who goes by 666 posted this last year

I suggest you read 666's post history and ask yourself if that's really who you want to get your arguments from.

There is nothing there that I don't know. In that first season, Matthews with Brown had some production that was entirely unsustainable. Meanwhile, he and Nylander was snake bit. This was pointed out to that poster, who ignored it. As he has done with everything that goes against what he wants to believe. This season, the regression in their numbers that we warned about came to pass.

There is no statistical support for saying that Brown has been even close to as good as Nylander on that line.

The obsession some seem to have with Nylander at centre is mis-placed. As of right now he is not an NHL caliber centre and I doubt he ever will be.

There is no obsession. Those of us who argue for Nylander as a competent center does so based on his history of being better at the position outside the NHL, and his history of performing at the position in the NHL, with results that are better than at the wing when he's away from Matthews. It's a rational conclusion arrived by examening the evidence in front of us.

What are you basing your opinion that he is not an NHL caliber center on?

So you think Willy can drive a 3rd line at centre and take minutes away from 34 (who already does not play enough minutes) or 43 who Babcock trusts. Who would be Willys dream wingers to give him this 17 minutes of icetime. Cause he won't produce playing 13-15 minutes without a couple of stud wingers. Not looking for a fight just watched how Babcock has run the bench this past 2 years. If Mathews averages 18.5 and Kadri 17. That leaves 24.5 between your 3rd and 4th line less PK. Just don't see that happening.

Please use the reply function.

There will be about 50 even strength minute per game on average. I expect our top three lines to get about 14-16 each of those, with the remaining 5-6 to the fourth line. I expect Matthews, Kadri, and Nylander to be on a top PP unit that just like most top PP units get the majority of ice time. That should add around 3 minutes to each of these players. I suspect that the fourth line will go to guys that play heavy PK roles, and sometimes complementary PP roles, bringing up the ice time for some of them.

 

[Iapyi]

I suggest you read 666's post history and wonder if that's really who you want to get your arguments from.

There is nothing there that I don't know. In that first season, Matthews with Brown had some production that was entirely unsustainable. Meanwhile, he and Nylander was snake bit. This was pointed out to that poster, who ignored it. As he has done with everything that goes against what he wants to believe This season, the regression in their numbers that we warned about came to pass.

There is no statistical support for saying that Brown has been even close to as good as Nylander on that line.


There is no obsession. Those of us who argue for Nylander as a competent center does so based on his history of being better at the position outside the NHL, and his history of performing at the position in the NHL, with results that are better than at the wing when he's away from Matthews. It's a rational conclusion arrived by examening the evidence in front of us.

What are you basing your opinion that he is not an NHL caliber center on?

My own opinion is all I need. I have nothing to prove to anyone.

 

[Boutette]

There will be about 50 even strength minute per game on average. I expect our top three lines to get about 14-16 each of those, with the remaining 5-6 to the fourth line. I expect Matthews, Kadri, and Nylander to be on a top PP unit that just like most top PP units get the majority of ice time. That should add around 3 minutes to each of these players. I suspect that the fourth line will go to guys that play heavy PK roles, and sometimes complementary PP roles, bringing up the ice time for some of them.

I'm not so certain the 4th line will be as you describe, unless the team does some significant trading/diving into the UFA pool to definitively pull in players who are superior to what we currently have now. Right now there's not a lot to distinguish the group of forwards we will have (outside of Matt Martin) as definitive 3rd/4th line players. those with NHL calibre skill at PK (Kapanen, Johnsson, Brown) also have decent offensive upside. Those with potentially better possession or comparatively good offensive skills (Leivo, Lindholm, Grundstrom, Aaltonnen) aren't exactly suited to traditional 4th line 5 minute a night plug roles. Some of these players are also suited to PP time (Leivo, Grundstrom) while others have shown more effectiveness off the rush (Kapanen, Johnsson). Unless the team makes the effort to trade/pickup players that suit your description, what would make more sense is a 1A/1B + 3A/3B setup whose specific time would vary between what team the Leafs are facing and what line is on a 'most effective' run among the bottom 6.

 

[diceman934]

I suggest you read 666's post history and ask yourself if that's really who you want to get your arguments from.

There is nothing there that I don't know. In that first season, Matthews with Brown had some production that was entirely unsustainable. Meanwhile, he and Nylander was snake bit. This was pointed out to that poster, who ignored it. As he has done with everything that goes against what he wants to believe. This season, the regression in their numbers that we warned about came to pass.

There is no statistical support for saying that Brown has been even close to as good as Nylander on that line.


There is no obsession. Those of us who argue for Nylander as a competent center does so based on his history of being better at the position outside the NHL, and his history of performing at the position in the NHL, with results that are better than at the wing when he's away from Matthews. It's a rational conclusion arrived by examening the evidence in front of us.

What are you basing your opinion that he is not an NHL caliber center on?


Please use the reply function.

There will be about 50 even strength minute per game on average. I expect our top three lines to get about 14-16 each of those, with the remaining 5-6 to the fourth line. I expect Matthews, Kadri, and Nylander to be on a top PP unit that just like most top PP units get the majority of ice time. That should add around 3 minutes to each of these players. I suspect that the fourth line will go to guys that play heavy PK roles, and sometimes complementary PP roles, bringing up the ice time for some of them.

Lol.

Nylander is not playing ahead of Marner on the top PP unit.

Using non NHL play as a reason why Nylander is a center is silly. Look at all the forwards in the NHL majority were centers before the NHL. Nothing Nylander has done as a center in the NHL has shown me that he can be an NHL Center. He was highly sheltered in his first year call up and did ok but since not so much.

He is not trusted defensively right now as a winger by his coach and you think he would be getting the same minutes as the top 2 lines??? What kind of rational thinking came up with that.

If he is a center this year I would expect him to be highly sheltered and not get no where near the minutes as the top two lines 5 0n 5 very similar to Bozak line...and likely less as Bozak can win faceoffs on both sides of the ice.

 

[kindalaidback]

Lol.

Nylander is not playing ahead of Marner on the top PP unit.

I don't know what Marner has to do with this again, but you are aware that teams can stack their units, right?

 

[Battle Lin]

you never know until you play someone there for a decent stretch of games, maybe marner can play center well, you gotta play them there to find out

with an aging 3c maybe off the team, and not many options in free agency, someone should get a chance

 

[diceman934]

I don't know what Marner has to do with this again, but you are aware that teams can stack their units, right?

Right teams can stack PP units but there was no mention of Marner and Nylander plays the same spot on the Power play on the right half wall and he is not going to play ahead of Marner on there.
Try to keep up.

 

[Knightnight]

I suggest you read 666's post history and ask yourself if that's really who you want to get your arguments from.

There is nothing there that I don't know. In that first season, Matthews with Brown had some production that was entirely unsustainable. Meanwhile, he and Nylander was snake bit. This was pointed out to that poster, who ignored it. As he has done with everything that goes against what he wants to believe. This season, the regression in their numbers that we warned about came to pass.

There is no statistical support for saying that Brown has been even close to as good as Nylander on that line.


There is no obsession. Those of us who argue for Nylander as a competent center does so based on his history of being better at the position outside the NHL, and his history of performing at the position in the NHL, with results that are better than at the wing when he's away from Matthews. It's a rational conclusion arrived by examening the evidence in front of us.

What are you basing your opinion that he is not an NHL caliber center on?


Please use the reply function.

There will be about 50 even strength minute per game on average. I expect our top three lines to get about 14-16 each of those, with the remaining 5-6 to the fourth line. I expect Matthews, Kadri, and Nylander to be on a top PP unit that just like most top PP units get the majority of ice time. That should add around 3 minutes to each of these players. I suspect that the fourth line will go to guys that play heavy PK roles, and sometimes complementary PP roles, bringing up the ice time for some of them.

Again no. Bozak and Jvr had there fair share of pp icetime. Bozak got some extra shifts because of defensive zone face offs. There icetime was 14 min, per game. Not even close to 43, 34, 29, 11, 12 or 16 once he moved to 43s line. The only steady pker in that top 6 was 11 and 12 to a lesser extent. So you expect 16 won't be on the top pp unit? That would be interesting. If thats the case and 29is on the top unit he will likely have the same icetime as 16 had before his line change. About 14-15 min a game.

 

[kindalaidback]

Right teams can stack PP units but there was no mention of Marner and Nylander plays the same spot on the Power play on the right half wall and he is not going to play ahead of Marner on there.
Try to keep up.

You trynna tell me to keep up, but you can't read:

I expect our top three lines to get about 14-16 each of those, with the remaining 5-6 to the fourth line. I expect Matthews, Kadri, and Nylander to be on a top PP unit that just like most top PP units get the majority of ice time.

oh no, someone dared not to mention Marner in a William Nylander thread about... William Nylander. They are all centering their own line but will play together on the PP. That's what Nithoniniel was talking about.

1) Willie and Matthews played on their off-wings for, like, half a season, and I also trust the coaching staff to know what to do. 2) We do not even know how the units will look like, so we're speculating. Which is fun. 3) People don't always have to mention Marner if they wanna talk about players on our team.

 

[Knightnight]

Lets assume no UFA signs
11 34 16
12 43 28
? 29 24
is 29 going to take ice time away from 34 or 43? Based on how Mike has used his 3rd and 4th lines i just don't think so

Lets say we bring in JT

11 34 ?
12 JT ?
? 43 ?

where do you think players fall and also what is the top PP line in this situation?

 

[diceman934]

You trynna tell me to keep up, but you can't read:



oh no, someone dared not to mention Marner in a William Nylander thread about... William Nylander. They are all centering their own line but will play together on the PP. That's what Nithoniniel was talking about.

1) Willie and Matthews played on their off-wings for, like, half a season, and I also trust the coaching staff to know what to do. 2) We do not even know how the units will look like, so we're speculating. Which is fun. 3) People don't always have to mention Marner if they wanna talk about players on our team.

Get over your self..,

I clearly explained that they both played the same position on the PP the only open spot if Mathews moves with Kadri and Marner is the net front person and I do not think he will play there. Like I said try to keep up.

 

[Notsince67]

Lets assume no UFA signs
11 34 16
12 43 28
? 29 24
is 29 going to take ice time away from 34 or 43? Based on how Mike has used his 3rd and 4th lines i just don't think so

Lets say we bring in JT

11 34 ?
12 JT ?
? 43 ?

where do you think players fall and also what is the top PP line in this situation?

Honestly...and I don't want to start a war but if JT is acquired, Nylander is traded for a top defender...likely on the right side. It would be the smart thing to do to free up Cap and plug the holes

 

[cookie]

The obsession some seem to have with Nylander at centre is mis-placed. As of right now he is not an NHL caliber centre and I doubt he ever will be.

It's not an obsession, Nylander's had success playing center in the AHL, in international tournaments, and in Sweden. He did not look out of place in his first year on the Leafs either, showing tons of promise. The Leafs have obviously been grooming him for the center position by having him take faceoffs and be in charge of out of zone transitions on the Matthews line... if we are to assume that Bozak is not part of the Leafs' long term plans, Nylander can (and should) be up to the task of playing a sheltered role as early as next year. He'll be that much stronger next year and consequently that much more suited for the job.

And y'all are making a big deal about playing time. Fact is that line compositions are never set in stone and that having three balanced lines not only diversifies our attack but it also keeps our players on their toes. Offense is not the issue with the team. Rather, it is the overall commitment to defense. Spreading out our talents ensures that no one gets a free ride riding on another's coattails but also helps Babcock better manage his players, especially those that aren't playing the right way. And there's also the sports science aspect as well...

 

[cookie]

Right teams can stack PP units but there was no mention of Marner and Nylander plays the same spot on the Power play on the right half wall and he is not going to play ahead of Marner on there.
Try to keep up.

Marner's had a great year on the PP this year. Nylander had a great year the year before, just one less point than Marner this year. Assuming that PP production isn't replicable year-to-year, it's not beyond reason that Nylander could have a fruitful 2018-19 campaign. We will find out who plays in front of who as the year progresses.

Incidentally, if we end up drawing power plays at a rate closer to league average, both Marner's unit and Nylander's unit could do tons of damage next year. I'm more concerned about Matthews's rather lacklustre PP output and the issues the potential JVR and Bozak departures might cause..

 

[Nithoniniel]

My own opinion is all I need. I have nothing to prove to anyone.

That's your prerogative. I don't really see the point of coming to a discussion board if all you want to do is state opinions and then not discuss them though.

Nylander is not playing ahead of Marner on the top PP unit.

Never said so. Perhaps you shouldn't jump to conclusions.

He is not trusted defensively right now as a winger by his coach and you think he would be getting the same minutes as the top 2 lines??? What kind of rational thinking came up with that.

The thinking that Babcock is a big fan of rolling three lines, and has done that as much as he can with the exception of Bozak last season. There's also the little thing that he has directly said that it's how he wants the lines to be, multiple times. Three pairings of two, with a puck retriever with all of them. Beat teams with depth.

Babcock hasn't even limited the ice time for Nylander when he put him on the fourth line, no reason to think that will happen on the third line. He has not limited the ice time for Nylander before when he's been center. In the last stretch, he could have hidden Willy in easy minutes but instead he used him in the same way as he used Matthews, and Willy put up some pretty good results and had the coach praising him.

There's no better indicator of how Babcock trusts Nylander as a center than how he was used when he played that position. That was as someone he was comfortable sending out there against guys like Malkin.

Get over your self..

The person saying I have never said something I never said should get over himself? That's rich.

Nylander has played both sides on the PP. There is absolutely no reason to somehow think that they can't both be on the PP just because they have normally both operated off of the right half-boards. Players change position on the PP, it happens all the time. Obviously I want Marner to run that PP, I love him from that spot.

Are you that oversensitive about Marner that you need to jump in to defend him just because he wasn't mentioned? I didn't think I had to. The only guys I mentioned were the centers, because I talked about how they'd be on different lines but play on the same PP.

Again no. Bozak and Jvr had there fair share of pp icetime. Bozak got some extra shifts because of defensive zone face offs. There icetime was 14 min, per game. Not even close to 43, 34, 29, 11, 12 or 16 once he moved to 43s line. The only steady pker in that top 6 was 11 and 12 to a lesser extent. So you expect 16 won't be on the top pp unit? That would be interesting. If thats the case and 29is on the top unit he will likely have the same icetime as 16 had before his line change. About 14-15 min a game.

Why should Bozak in the last season be the end of all comparisons? It was an anomaly more than anything else.

Thanks for using the reply function btw, it really makes it easier to make sure I don't lose the thread.