If Draft was Today!

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Big McLargehuge

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The Penguins aren't tanking the season though.

It's a little thing called "survival"

If the Penguins had the money do you really think Kovalev would be in New York or Straka would be in Los Angeles, or Lang would be in Detroit, or so on and so forth.

And the Penguins may be laughable, but they give it there best every game, I've seen some of the best hockey in my life this year, regardless of how "bad" this team is.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Handsome B. Wonderful said:
If the Penguins had the money do you really think Kovalev would be in New York or Straka would be in Los Angeles, or Lang would be in Detroit, or so on and so forth.

I understand they can't keep the guys, but the Oilers have been in precarious financial situation for too many years to count and that has not prevented them from trying their best to put a competitive product on the ice. They don't always succeed but they try.

Handsome B. Wonderful said:
And the Penguins may be laughable, but they give it there best every game, I've seen some of the best hockey in my life this year, regardless of how "bad" this team is.

Seems unbelievable to me but who am I to tell you different? Glad you enjoyed the season!
 

Big McLargehuge

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I haven't enjoyed the season, but this may be redundant but this is the best 12-42 team I've ever seen :p

They lose games, but unlike some other Pittsburgh teams they're entertaining. If the Pirates lose they're out of the game early and never come close, the Penguins are in it until they allow the second empty netter...
 

Gwyddbwyll

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Dec 24, 2002
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Are some of you serious about criticizing Mario for daring to smile/laugh at a game? Sheesh. Somebody probably made a joke. I know there are important PR protocols to follow but you got to lighten up sometime or you'd commit suicide. Especially when you're the owner of the Pens ;) Okay okay bad joke but still..
 

Samkow

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Jacobv2 said:
Understand that it's out of necessity. Lemieux, as an owner, has cut payroll in half and he's still expecting to lose as much as 5 million this season.

Mario is the only guy for the job. He's not a billionaire like Leonsis. He could sell the team, but without a new arena, they'd just be moved to the sunbelt.


From this statement alone it's pretty clear that you do have a personal vendetta against Mario and/or the Penguins in general. I've never seen Lemieux smiling/laughing in the press box- not even when the Penguins are winning- and I watch every game.
There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize Lemieux, I have no idea why you would make something up.

If the team is losing 5 Million this year despite having a payroll of around 20 Million, perhpas he should sell the team, or find a partner to invest in the team.

and in regards to the tanking, they defenitly could have got a better line up. FE, Arturs Irbe could have probobly be had for a 7th round draft pick with Carolina picking up 90% of his salary. A Goalie only two years removed from a Stanley Cup Final. I feel very bad for the fans who have to put up with a team that is only tredding water till the next CBA, and even after that, things probobly wont get better, unless the Arena is built, which could be too late to save the franchise.
 

Big McLargehuge

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Why would the Pens get Irbe when they could have just kept Hedberg?

The Penguins are playing for the future, they have four young goalies that have been playing this year. I'd rather have given J-S Aubin one last chance than go out and get Irbe, even if he is a favorite of mine.
 

Duster

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Feb 20, 2004
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Zherdev Fan said:
If the team is losing 5 Million this year despite having a payroll of around 20 Million, perhpas he should sell the team, or find a partner to invest in the team.

and in regards to the tanking, they defenitly could have got a better line up. FE, Arturs Irbe could have probobly be had for a 7th round draft pick with Carolina picking up 90% of his salary. A Goalie only two years removed from a Stanley Cup Final. I feel very bad for the fans who have to put up with a team that is only tredding water till the next CBA, and even after that, things probobly wont get better, unless the Arena is built, which could be too late to save the franchise.

You are right. The problem is money. In a way this should be resolved partially by a new CBA. However, one thing people are forgetting is that the deal between the NHL and Russian hockey teams expires this summer. With what happened to Zherdev, expect teams likes CSKA etc.. to ask for astronomical transfer fees. Instead of $750K or $1 million transfer fees, expect much larger sums. Pittsburgh may not be able to afford Ovechkin regardless. The team barely managed to pay Fleury.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Duster said:
However, one thing people are forgetting is that the deal between the NHL and Russian hockey teams expires this summer. With what happened to Zherdev, expect teams likes CSKA etc.. to ask for astronomical transfer fees. Instead of $750K or $1 million transfer fees, expect much larger sums. Pittsburgh may not be able to afford Ovechkin regardless. The team barely managed to pay Fleury.

You raise a very good point. I personally hope and think it would be fair that the players be asked to contribute. themselves. They benefit from the long years of training as much (and currently MORE) than the owners financially so that seems the least they could do.
 

AEKaki

Registered User
Vlad The Impaler said:
It was against Ottawa. I saw it. I don't watch every game but I found this to be very alarming when his team is on the verge of pulling a record in consecutive losses.


I've seen him smile a couple of times.
Well, guy, he's human.
What do you expect.
Give him the money that Leonsis has, and the Pens will be in the playoffs again.
Or, give them an arena, and you won't see these "stupid" moves again.
 

Duster

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Vlad The Impaler said:
You raise a very good point. I personally hope and think it would be fair that the players be asked to contribute. themselves. They benefit from the long years of training as much (and currently MORE) than the owners financially so that seems the least they could do.

What is a concern is a possible manipulation of the draft like you have in baseball. The best player available will go to who can pay the most in terms of signing bonuses, transfer fees etc...rather than draft position. It would bypass the lottery system and some teams like Pittsburgh and most Canadian teams would be at a severe disadvantage.
 

Jason MacIsaac

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Jan 13, 2004
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1.) Pittsburgh - Ovechkin: Best player by a good margin and will bring people to the rink.

2.) Columbus - Barker: Columbus seems to be set up front for the future, in nets but not on the blueline, Barker is the best dmen.

3.) Washington - Malkin: Washington has enough grit right now and will look a a future #1 center after Lang leaves.

4.) Flordia(Chicago) - Olesz: Florida will trade up to get the future Czech star. Florida is set on defense and in nets but need another big time player.

5. Carolina - Schremp: Schremps skills and speed will fit in perfect with the teams new philosophy.

6.) Atlanta - Chipchura: Atlanta seems to like drafting from the WHL and will be looking for a power forward in the draft. It is either Chipchura or Ladd.

7.) NYR - Lisen: NYR will waste their pick on a scorer which they don't need.

8.) Phoenix - Radulov: Dogs have a good solid core of prospects, they will look to add some more scoring.

9.) Minnesoda - Wolski: Minny adds a garbage man, much like Smyth, Wolski will make his office in front.

10.) Edmonton - Schwarz: No need to explain this selection

11.) Anaheim - Green: Anaheim will want to pick up a great allround defensmen, his physical play an puck rushing make him suitable in Anaheim.

12.) Chicago (Florida) Montoya: Chicago will get their man in nets, Chicago has decent goaltender prospects but nothing great. Their have a well balanced prospect core.

13.) Buffalo - Smid: Buffalo needs a defensmen and the two best are gone, they will go to this big allround dmen.

14.) St Louis - ONeill: Why not take a chacne to get a potential Pronger clone. ONeill has great size, is physical but needs to develop his offense.

15.) Nashville - Ladd: Smashville goes for another tough PF, they will get a future Doan type player in Ladd.
 

Mizral

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I must admit, I'm not quite in 'draft mode' yet, so I'm not up to date with all of the guys to be selected in the top 20 of the draft. However, a few questions:

- I was under the impression that Alexandre Picard would be picked in the latter half of the 1st round, and I was quite hoping he would be around when the Canucks pick. Am I mistaken to believe this? I see some had him in their top 10, which was pretty shocking to me.

- Same goes for Mike Green, will he really go that high? I was expecting him to be more of a 12 - 18 sort of pick.

- Anyone think Devyn Dubyk will be around for the second Oilers pick (Flyers former 1st rounder)? I'd like to see them pick him up with that pick.

- Lastly, any idea where Kyle Chipacubara or whatever his last name is will go?
 

thestonedkoala

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Jason one problem with that: Minnesota needs DEFENSE! We got enough garbage men up front (Burns, Foy, Wanvig, Johnson, Weimer (if he resigns)) but we need a potential game breaker in back. If O'Neill isn't gone by then, Minnesota will grab him.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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thestonedkoala said:
Jason one problem with that: Minnesota needs DEFENSE! We got enough garbage men up front (Burns, Foy, Wanvig, Johnson, Weimer (if he resigns)) but we need a potential game breaker in back. If O'Neill isn't gone by then, Minnesota will grab him.

Do you know that for sure? :p

That will depend whether they adhere to the "fill the needs" philosophy or the "BPA" model. So far, their drafting suggests it is the latter and IMO, this is the best way to go.
 

Jacob

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Feb 27, 2002
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Zherdev Fan said:
If the team is losing 5 Million this year despite having a payroll of around 20 Million, perhpas he should sell the team.
Because they'd be moved. Get it? It's such a simple concept.

and in regards to the tanking, they defenitly could have got a better line up. FE, Arturs Irbe could have probobly be had for a 7th round draft pick with Carolina picking up 90% of his salary.
Uhh, right. Because they'd rather pay 90% to trade him than 100% to buy him out. What's that term I'm thinking of, is it armchair GM?
 

Cosmo_Kramer

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Vlad, if you're going to criticize a team for doing poorly, please come up with a better example then tanking the season. The Penguins are having enough trouble, they don't need you trying to turn off the last .0003% of people that actually still attend games.

In my humble opinion, the bigger picture is that it goes against sportsmanship for an organization to tank it like that. It's a competitive league and by its nature, the product should be about competition. But we've got this new trend now of teams taking it easy and tanking. It cheapes the sports in its entirety.

It's bad for the sport. It's even bad on a materialistic level because it makes the entire NHL a lesser product.

No, what's bad for the sport is the 70 million dollar teams that go out and buy their players-- New York Rangers-- and inflate the salary of lesser players so smaller-market teams have no choice but to trade off their players.

The Pittsburgh Penguins are not the enemy. They are a victim of this financial crisis called the NHL. And now you want to punish them further for trying to atleast survive in the NHL until a new CBA?

But this situation of tanking is unacceptable and it must NOT be rewarded.

It seems to me that when you suggest the team is "tanking" you would say that the players are not trying. And for that I must put attention to your ignorance. If you had watched the Ottawa game-- Which you have toldus you had-- then you would have seen one of the hardest working teams on ice. The fact of the matter is that they just don't have the talent level to match up to any of the teams in the league.

And for this willing to continue the season--with no hope-- you want to punish them for it.

It must be nice to not have to go through any of this with your team. It must be nice to have an all-star player that your team can afford. It must be nice to turn on a television and watch your favorite team win.

Until you stand in our shoes, and feel what it feels like to have this bad of a team, then I'll ask you to just stop trying to criticize them more just because you feel that there record makes them look like they're tanking the season.


If you want someone to blame, look no further than the owners, not the players. The owners gave the players the salary that got themselves in trouble, and so the owners will have to control themselves, and other owners, from continuing this financial mess, because without restraining themselves, this won't be the last team you see "tanking" the season.
 

thestonedkoala

Guest
Vlad if everything goes as rightly as plan:

They have five defensemen: Heid, Michalek, Reitz, Bolduc, and Misharin...Not exactly the best group, just good depth, maybe Heid and Schultz could pair up but we got enough forwards, not enough defensemen. If Reitz and Michalek come up in the offseason, we'll have 1 defenseman that we drafted in the minors. Heid.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Feb 27, 2002
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Cosmo_Kramer said:
Vlad, if you're going to criticize a team for doing poorly, please come up with a better example then tanking the season. The Penguins are having enough trouble, they don't need you trying to turn off the last .0003% of people that actually still attend games.

Don't worry, there is zero chance I will turn anyone. Mario and friends have done this themselves :p

Cosmo_Kramer said:
No, what's bad for the sport is the 70 million dollar teams that go out and buy their players-- New York Rangers-- and inflate the salary of lesser players so smaller-market teams have no choice but to trade off their players.

Can't disagree with that, although the Rangers are screwing themselves in the process, which is nice. They don't get much sympathy from me either.

Cosmo_Kramer said:
The Pittsburgh Penguins are not the enemy. They are a victim of this financial crisis called the NHL. And now you want to punish them further for trying to atleast survive in the NHL until a new CBA?

Please keep in mind all NHL teams were part of the process of negociating the last CBA. The small market teams are the ones who orchestrated their downfall. The richer teams actually signed a CBA they could live up to. I don't think the word "victim" applies much, here.

Also, I do not want to punish them for trying to survive. Rather, I don't want them to be rewarded for a trend that is just hurting the NHL at large.

Cosmo_Kramer said:
It seems to me that when you suggest the team is "tanking" you would say that the players are not trying. And for that I must put attention to your ignorance. If you had watched the Ottawa game-- Which you have toldus you had-- then you would have seen one of the hardest working teams on ice. The fact of the matter is that they just don't have the talent level to match up to any of the teams in the league.

I think they are doing ok, work ethics-wise. I think it's management that is absolutely doing their best to tank.

Cosmo_Kramer said:
And for this willing to continue the season--with no hope-- you want to punish them for it.

That's the irony. No. In fact, if the NHL did not reward teams that tank it, the poor guys on the ice for Pittsburgh right now would not be in this situation. Management might not have done such a great job to empty everything and make a glorious "run" for last place.

Cosmo_Kramer said:
It must be nice to not have to go through any of this with your team. It must be nice to have an all-star player that your team can afford. It must be nice to turn on a television and watch your favorite team win.

I've long ago ceased to root for a team in particular because of the business-first attitude in this sport and the lack of sportsmanship. This is a glowing example here.

Cosmo_Kramer said:
Until you stand in our shoes, and feel what it feels like to have this bad of a team, then I'll ask you to just stop trying to criticize them more just because you feel that there record makes them look like they're tanking the season.

Been in your shoes. Saw team deconstruction and all sorts of things. Looked at it objectively. Decided to stop rooting for a team in particular and just enjoy good games of hockey.

Cosmo_Kramer said:
If you want someone to blame, look no further than the owners, not the players. The owners gave the players the salary that got themselves in trouble, and so the owners will have to control themselves, and other owners, from continuing this financial mess, because without restraining themselves, this won't be the last team you see "tanking" the season.

I agree with you that the owners are responsible in great part. So are the greedy players and their bloodsucking agents.

I also agree it won't be the last time we see a team tanking but that's only as long as the current, crappy pick system is in place. It's looking worse and worse as time goes by. They had to actually work a lottery system, which proves that the NHL acknowledges that there is a sportsmanship problem in this league and that spineless owners/managers do try this stunt. The bad news is, their solution has not worked all that well so far.

You know what? I don't understand the resentment. I think your anger might be better directed at your team's management. You're telling me your players have to fight for their lives and give a tremendous effort because of a lack of talent, you're telling me about the the .0003% people in attendance. That's all due in part to lack of spine by your management to actually put a competitive product. That lack of spine is caused by the current lottery system.

But hey, you take offense when someone suggests that we should actually hope things are oing to change and that this type of "effort" should not be rewarded.

I agree with you that a new CBA must be worked out. One where (for a change) the poor owners will grow a brain and sign something they can live up to. But a healthy league also must be the result of an OVERALL competitive product leading to overall market health.

The problem I see here, is that the Pens fans I am talking to are looking at the situation in a self-centered fashion. That's the quickest route to shortsightedness. I realize what the draft is for, and on paper it looks good. But it's clearly not working. We've had examples in the past and because nobody did much about it, we're having more examples this year, including a glowing example in Pittsburgh.

Even under a new CBA, Mario may have alienated the fanbase for several years. This situation, overall, is just not good. To see my position as an "attack" on the Pittsburgh market or its fans is just completely untrue. I truly feel sorry for what you are ging through. But you're going through it, in part, because you disagree with my position.
 

EroCaps

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Aug 24, 2003
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A lot of fans would relish a Ovechkin-Semin one-two, but if the Caps keep winning these irritatingly boring, hard-fought games in the face of adversity, that dream will be kaput.

Barker- Eminger- Coliaicovo -/Ouellet, would be alright.
 

clefty

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Your message is long and I will reply to it in more details later :)

I'd like to address that bit right now, though. I fully sympathize with what Pens fans have to go through. However, one always needs to look at the bigger picture and that's why I am trying to do here.

In my humble opinion, the bigger picture is that it goes against sportsmanship for an organization to tank it like that. It's a competitive league and by its nature, the product should be about competition. But we've got this new trend now of teams taking it easy and tanking. It cheapes the sports in its entirety.

It's bad for the sport. It's even bad on a materialistic level because it makes the entire NHL a lesser product.

If we focus on Pittsburgh fans now, it's bad for them too. How can you feel good about this if, for instance, you paid hard-earned money for seasons-tix? It's just an injustice and near-theft.

The question is not to punish Pens fans. Heck, I'd love for Pens fans to get a bright future. But this situation of tanking is unacceptable and it must NOT be rewarded. Or it will be repeated elsewhere and more fans will get screwed up in another city, not to mention that as I already said, it cheapens the sport at large as well as screw up the NHL at large.

Are you going to enjoy your Pens game featuring Ovechkin in 6 years when (example totally out of the blue, it could be any team) the Red Wings come to twon with a depleted lineup of AHLers because they are trying to tank it to draft some Czech kid by the name of Marek Puckev? No, you're going to be bored to death. You're going to wonder why the **** you paid tickets at that price to see a one-sided effort leading to a boringly predictable effort.

And you'd feel even worse if unlike you or I, you had zero interest in prospects and were just there to enjoy a good game of hardfought hockey.

This goes beyond what Pens fans may selfishly feel they deserve. It goes right at heart to the issue of what the NHL is supposed to offer as a product and what is becoming a problem in this league. I remember when it was a 21-team league it wasn't much of a problem. You had maybe 1, perhaps 2 teams tanking when the draft year was UNBELIEVABLE. Sure, that sucked. But at least the problem was smaller.

Now it's every year. And some years, you see teams to go to such unbelievable lengths to tank it that it is just disgusting. This is one of those cases. The NHL needs a new system where teams will not be rewarded in such a way. Hard to do, but needs to be addressed as soon as possible. This is not acceptable, IMO.

Well thats irrelevant because the Penguins aren't tanking the season :)

They simply play too hard too often for that to be the case. This Penguins team is the first team to forecheck regularly, work along the boards and in the corners and backcheck effectively in years. Its been really refreshing to see the effort and commitment put in pretty much every night. The wins aren't there right now because the team lacks that extra skill and experience.

Look at their attitude. You should have seen the reactions of players and coaches when Ric Jackman scored that OT winner the other night (maybe you did). It was like they just won a Game 7. Conversley, while in the midst of that terribe streak, the guys were as dejected as you could imagine during the press conferences. Sometimes, I thought Eddie Olczyk was going to start crying, he's probably aged about 10 years in the last 4 months. Brush that aside as good acting or whatever, but to me and many others, theres no doubting the team was feeling the effects of the losing streak, and the desire to win was just as great (if not greater) as any other team in the league.

And who tanks a season in January? If the Penguins were going to pick a time to start tanking things in, why do it January and not, say, March. Additionally, of the 18 games the Penguins lost, 10 of them were decided by two goals or less - its not like they were being mercilessly slaughtered night after night. Besides, telling your team of rookies to tank the season is not something a rebuilding team does. It teaches bad habits and causes a rift between players and management. The Penguins have invested far too much into their youth development to do this.

A team struggling for wins does not automatically equate to a team tanking the season. I cannot agree the Penguins have given in on the season. I've simply seen too much that tells me the contrary.
 
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Luigi Lemieux

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clefty said:
Well thats irrelevant because the Penguins aren't tanking the season :)

They simply play too hard too often for that to be the case. This Penguins team is the first team to forecheck regularly, work along the boards and in the corners and backcheck effectively in years. Its been really refreshing to see the effort and commitment put in pretty much every night. The wins aren't there right now because the team lacks that extra skill and experience.

Look at their attitude. You should have seen the reactions of players and coaches when Ric Jackman scored that OT winner the other night (maybe you did). It was like they just won a Game 7. Conversley, while in the midst of that terribe streak, the guys were as dejected as you could imagine during the press conferences. Sometimes, I thought Eddie Olczyk was going to start crying.

And who tanks a season in January? If the Penguins were going to pick a time to start tanking things in, why do it January and not, say, March. Additionally, of the 18 games the Penguins lost, 10 of them were decided by two goals or less - its not like they were being mercilessly slaughtered night after night.

A team struggling for wins does not automatically equate to a team tanking the season. I cannot agree the Penguins have given in on the season. I've simply seen too much that tells me the contrary.
not saying that i agree with him, but he means from a management point of view, not the players' work ethic.
 

clefty

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I know that, but ultimately it comes down to the players. The reasons for management making the decisions that they have made has been explained, re-explained and explained again for good measure. And if the Penguins managemenr were intent of tanking the season, why would they continue to keep icing their best players? Wouldn't Malone and Orpik be down in Wilkes-Barre? Would they not have shipped out Tarnstrom and Morozov by now?

Just providing another perspective on the subject.
 

Cosmo_Kramer

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Vlad The Impaler said:
Don't worry, there is zero chance I will turn anyone. Mario and friends have done this themselves :p

Yeah, well that's fair weather fans who have abandoned their team when they need them the most. (You'll probably say that the managment has abandoned the fans, but I disagree. I think they did the best they could with what they had--even if it's the worst talent on ice.)

You just can't deny the fact that a middle income family is not going to want to spend 80 dollars a ticket and waste their time to go watch a losing team trying to play a trap system. I'm sure they'd rather spend it watching the symphony.

Please keep in mind all NHL teams were part of the process of negociating the last CBA. The small market teams are the ones who orchestrated their downfall. The richer teams actually signed a CBA they could live up to. I don't think the word "victim" applies much, here.

Yes, but back during that CBA agreement some of the small market teams now were big market teams back then. But I do agree with you that it is the owners fault.

Also, I do not want to punish them for trying to survive. Rather, I don't want them to be rewarded for a trend that is just hurting the NHL at large.

So you believe that the players and the fans should be punished, because if your sole reason is to punish the managment, you also have to realize that you will punish the fans and the players because their effort that they put into the season was for nothing.

I think they are doing ok, work ethics-wise. I think it's management that is absolutely doing their best to tank.

Yes, I agree that they might be trying to tank, but are you telling me that you wouldn't do the same if you were put into the same situation? The team they put out there may be the best they can do and still survive in the NHL.

That's the irony. No. In fact, if the NHL did not reward teams that tank it, the poor guys on the ice for Pittsburgh right now would not be in this situation. Management might not have done such a great job to empty everything and make a glorious "run" for last place.

Well that's speculation--along with your speculation that they're tanking the season. I don't think that the main reason they "emptied everything" was to make a "glorious run for last place." It was for the most part the buisness side of the NHL. (And that is what has happened because of the state the NHL is in.)

If Mario doesn't turn the team around after the CBA--and hopefully a salary cap and shared revenue system-- and after they get a new arena, then yes I will agree with you that they should be punished and I'll even go further to say that they wouldn't deserve a team anymore.

I find it very sad that, because of the owners fiscal spending, the fans themselves are the victims in the matter. If anything, we deserve to see our teams have equal opportunity to compete in this team, and not have to see our managment resort to "tanking" the season, as Vlad calls it.
 
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