If Bobby Orr Didn't Have Knee Issues, How Much Better Would His Career have Been?

[tinyzombies]

There is a scenario where Boston's blueline could have been Orr, Park, Bourque, but in 1981-82.

The reason Orr signed with Chicago in 1976 (5 yrs, 3m) was because the Eagle didn't tell him about Boston's offer to give him an 18% stake in the team. Does Orr, a very loyal guy, then decide in 1981 to sign back with Boston after hearing about Eagle's betrayal? Boston WOULD have gone ahead and traded for Park if they didn't have Orr, and would have drafted Bourque still as Park was aging. Does that give Boston enough to knock off the first place Canadiens and then Islanders on the way to a Cup win over Vancouver? Orr and Park would have been 34 yrs old, Bourque 22 (and a young McCrimmon).

Leveille - Pederson – Middleton
Marcotte - McNab – O’Reilly
Cashman - Kasper – K. Crowder
Jonathan - Fergus – B. Crowder
Gillis

Bourque – Orr
McCrimmon – Park
Milbury - O’Connell

Moffatt/Vachon


Or does he go to Edmonton and team up with Gretz?

Kurri – Gretzky – Anderson
Messier – Hagman - Lumley
Hunter –Callighen - Hughes
Semenko –Unger -Roulston

Lowe - Orr
Coffey - Siltanen
Huddy - Fogolin

Fuhr

 

[kytem2]

There is a scenario where Boston's blueline could have been Orr, Park, Bourque, but in 1981-82.

The reason Orr signed with Chicago in 1976 (5 yrs, 3m) was because the Eagle didn't tell him about Boston's offer to give him an 18% stake in the team. Does Orr, a very loyal guy, then decide in 1981 to sign back with Boston after hearing about Eagle's betrayal? Boston WOULD have gone ahead and traded for Park if they didn't have Orr, and would have drafted Bourque still as Park was aging. Does that give Boston enough to knock off the first place Canadiens and then Islanders on the way to a Cup win over Vancouver? Orr and Park would have been 34 yrs old, Bourque 22 (and a young McCrimmon). Boston also had an aging vet Rogie Vachon in nets. So you're talking a lot of age back there.

Leveille - Pederson – Middleton
Marcotte - McNab – O’Reilly
Cashman - Kasper – K. Crowder
Jonathan - Fergus – B. Crowder
Gillis

Bourque – Orr
McCrimmon – Park
Milbury - O’Connell

Vachon


Or does he go to Edmonton and team up with Gretz?

Kurri – Gretzky – Anderson
Messier – Hagman - Lumley
Hunter –Callighen - Hughes
Semenko –Unger -Roulston

Lowe - Orr
Coffey - Siltanen
Huddy - Fogolin

Fuhr

The Bruins' goalie was Mike Moffatt for every game in the playoffs, not the completely washed up Rogie Vachon.

With Moffatt as goalie, the Oilers would have annihilated the Bruins.

 

[tinyzombies]

Actually if Orr was healthy, the Park trade never would have happened.

***

"Harry Sinden knew Bobby Orr was leaving, but we didn't," Esposito said. "So, he traded to get the second-best defenseman in hockey. Park had been an All-Star every year."

 

[Tawnos]

i wonder if the real question isn't whether bobby orr would be the undisputed greatest player of all time, or if the biggest consequence to an alternate history with a healthy orr is where phil esposito would rank.

if bobby orr was healthy, would they have even needed to trade esposito and hodge for park and ratelle? and in the eight games before the trade in '76, espo scored at a 106 point pace without orr. once he was traded, he slowed down from that and scored basically 80 points a year for the last five full seasons of his career.

i don't know quite how to "read" that 106 point pace.

I'd be very surprised if you couldn't find an 8 game stretch with NY where Espo played at that kind of pace.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I'd be very surprised if you couldn't find an 8 game stretch with NY where Espo played at that kind of pace.

maybe so, and granted i don't actually know anything about the relative stylistic/system differences between cherry's bruins and the late 70s rangers, but i also notice that brad park's stats went significantly up after the trade.

57 points in 65 games in his last full NYR year, 6 points in 13 games before the trade, 53 points in 43 games after the trade. then seasons of 67, 79, and 39 in 40 games in '79 before a series of declining years (coinciding with cherry's departure but i'm not sure if that has anything to do with anything).

likewise, ratelle also saw a scoring bump after the trade, though he didn't keep his heightened pace for as long, possibly due to being eight years older than park.

but can anyone who actually remembers those late 70s bruins and rangers enlighten us here?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Bruins and Rangers

maybe so, and granted i don't actually know anything about the relative stylistic/system differences between cherry's bruins and the late 70s rangers, but i also notice that brad park's stats went significantly up after the trade.

57 points in 65 games in his last full NYR year, 6 points in 13 games before the trade, 53 points in 43 games after the trade. then seasons of 67, 79, and 39 in 40 games in '79 before a series of declining years (coinciding with cherry's departure but i'm not sure if that has anything to do with anything).

likewise, ratelle also saw a scoring bump after the trade, though he didn't keep his heightened pace for as long, possibly due to being eight years older than park.

but can anyone who actually remembers those late 70s bruins and rangers enlighten us here?

1975 thru 1979 Bruins and Rangers.

Bruins had coaching and roster stability with Don Cherry while the Rangers featured a revolving door - Ron Stewart, John Ferguson, Jean-Guy Talbot, Fred Shero all coached Phil Esposito.

For the first time in his NHL career, Phil Esposito had to skate on a regulation size NHL rink while Jean Ratelle played on the smaller Boston Garden rink. Note a number of older Bruins enjoyed this benefit. John McKenzie, John Bucyk, Ron Murphy, Ed Westfall, etc.

Brad Park's knees were a factor. Missed 24 games in 1975-76, 40 in 1978-79 and 48 in 1979-80.

 

[reckoning]

Actually if Orr was healthy, the Park trade never would have happened.

***

"Harry Sinden knew Bobby Orr was leaving, but we didn't," Esposito said. "So, he traded to get the second-best defenseman in hockey. Park had been an All-Star every year."

At the time of the big trade, Bep Guidloin (B's coach before Cherry) claimed that two years earlier the teams had tentatively agreed on a trade to send Esposito and Hodge to New York for Park, Gilbert, Tkaczuk; but Sinden got cold feet and backed out.

I think Sinden always wanted as much depth at defence as possible. For example in the early-80s, even though he already had Bourque and Park, he traded Al Secord for Mike O'Connell and used the #1 overall pick in '82 on Gord Kluzak.

Maybe he just liked to load up on defencemen. Perhaps Orr's knee problems caused him to make sure his future teams could withstand an injury on the blueline.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Orr's knees were shot when he signed with Chicago. Didn't matter if he had signed with Bruins, his career was over. No one, no one could skate like Orr when he was at his best. He could do everything as a player.
And he really revolutionized the defence position. Most defensemen were pluggers would get the puck and just pass it. Orr created the position where often the best player was your defenceman so he could skate with the puck from one end of the ice to the other.

Regarding the trade. Maybe it would not have made and difference. Montreal has absolutely dynamic teams in the 70s. Didn't they just lose 8 games in one season, and that was before shootouts.

Esposito certainly declined as player rapidly when he didn't have Orr and the other Bruins feeding him the puck in the slot where he such an effective player.

 

[overpass]

Since we're talking what ifs, what if Gordie Howe decides to retire a few years earlier in the 1970s? As a result, Mark Howe leaves the WHA and signs with the NHL club that drafted him, the Boston Bruins. Howe forms a big four on defence with Orr, Park, and Bourque.

 

[Bluesguru]

If Orr doesn't retire early

If Orr didn't have bad knees and ends up a Bruin for life, what's your answer to the following?

-- Do the Canadiens win 4 Cups in a row during the 70's?

-- Do the Bruins end up as the team of the 70's?

-- Does Esposito end up a Bruin for life?

 

[Killion]

If Orr didn't have bad knees and ends up a Bruin for life, what's your answer to the following?

-- Do the Canadiens win 4 Cups in a row during the 70's?

-- Do the Bruins end up as the team of the 70's?

-- Does Esposito end up a Bruin for life?

Merged with this thread Bluesguru.... same subject, topic..... and no, I dont think Boston capable even with a healthy Orr derailing the Canadiens & Esposito playing out his career in the black & gold. Those Habs' teams arguably the greatest ever in the history of the game, league. Genius on the ice, behind the bench, scouting, development & depth, management. Despite Orr & others on those Bruins clubs, no, not seeing it. A Hell of a lot more competitive absolutely however, the Canadiens, raise the level of their already extreme stratospheric perches. They had a lot more in the tank than one might imagine given their outstanding record & winning ways. More than up to the task of taking on even more formidable opponents than they faced during their peak years.

 

[Bluesguru]

Merged with this thread Bluesguru.... same subject, topic..... and no, I dont think Boston capable even with a healthy Orr derailing the Canadiens & Esposito playing out his career in the black & gold. Those Habs' teams arguably the greatest ever in the history of the game, league. Genius on the ice, behind the bench, scouting, development & depth, management. Despite Orr & others on those Bruins clubs, no, not seeing it. A Hell of a lot more competitive absolutely however, the Canadiens, raise the level of their already extreme stratospheric perches. They had a lot more in the tank than one might imagine given their outstanding record & winning ways. More than up to the task of taking on even more formidable opponents than they faced during their peak years.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I posted this without even looking what threads were out there, was unaware of a similar Orr thread going on.

Gotta remember though, the Bruins with Brad Park gave Montreal a challenge for 3 consecutive years.

Let's say Orr is healthy, then the Espo deal never goes down. Now you got Orr & Vadnais back on the blue line. It's plausible that Boston might win 1 or even 2 series during that time.

And lets say Orr is healthy and the Bruins still steal Brad Park from NY, then I absolutely think the Bruins win 2 of those Cups with an Orr/Park tandem.

Thanks again!

 

[Killion]

Thanks for your thoughts.

I posted this without even looking what threads were out there, was unaware of a similar Orr thread going on.

Gotta remember though, the Bruins with Brad Park gave Montreal a challenge for 3 consecutive years.

Let's say Orr is healthy, then the Espo deal never goes down. Now you got Orr & Vadnais back on the blue line. It's plausible that Boston might win 1 or even 2 series during that time.

And lets say Orr is healthy and the Bruins still steal Brad Park from NY, then I absolutely think the Bruins win 2 of those Cups with an Orr/Park tandem.

Thanks again!

Mods & regulars posting here see new threads, frequent cases of amnesia & deja vu at the same time and... "Aha!... yes, now I remember. Not losing my mind.".

Put it this way.... I wouldnt entirely discount that with a healthy Orr, some missing pieces added to the Bruins, Cheevers in top-form that they wouldnt maybe take a Cup or two from the Habs. It is possible, absolutely, but... I find it doubtful. Cherry was no Bowman and the organization didnt have the same depth. But yes, if Orr was 100% & the Bruins lineup tweaked, its possible. That "Orr Factor", you'd be foolish to discount what he was capable of & not to imagine that he was something the Habs as great as they were would have been unable to contain. He was in a League of his own and as a Defenceman you just couldnt deal with him in the same way you could with a Bobby Hull, a Gretzky or Lemieux.

 

[Sens Rule]

Currently he has the benefit of not having a tail end of career ("The Bossy Effect"). Just to balance out his potential accolades.

Except he is missing like 6-8 very productive 27-34 year old seasons.

Orr could easily have had the career arc of Gretzky. 20 years. 18-38 years old. Retire after 38 year old season. Still very, very good the last 3/4 seasons. Orr could have had 1800-2000 points.

 

[frontsfan2005]

If Orr plays until the end of the 1984-85 season, he would've been 37 years old at the end of the season and the oldest player in the NHL.

If he does play until 1985, which pretty much adds 10 years to his career, and if he averages 90-100 points a year, he finishes around 1800 points.

The only way he plays in 1985-86 is if he is within striking distance of breaking Gordie Howe's point record.

He definitely would not have played until 1990, he would have been 42 years old at the end of that season. He would have been more than four years older than Borje Salming, who was the oldest player in 1989-90, as he was finishing his career in Detroit.

 

[ManofSteel55]

I don't think he would be viewed as "better". He would have had a few more years of his prime, but he would have certainly slowed down and played a number of years while past his prime, like nearly all legends do. Some would remember his later years and let that tarnish their opinion of him - again, like they do with other legends.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't think he would be viewed as "better". He would have had a few more years of his prime, but he would have certainly slowed down and played a number of years while past his prime, like nearly all legends do. Some would remember his later years and let that tarnish their opinion of him - again, like they do with other legends.

That didn't apply to Gretzky, why would it to Orr?

 

[Johnny Engine]

That didn't apply to Gretzky, why would it to Orr?

Another poster mentioned the "Bossy effect", where prime-only percentages are used in a statistically unreasonable way to pump up a (although great) player who was never quite as good as Gretzky and Lemieux.

That doesn't really apply to Orr. I don't think anyone feels they have to explain away, say, Potvin's 137-point lead over Orr's career totals using per-game numbers, or try to claim that Orr might have smashed Howe's records before Gretzky did.

 

[The Panther]

There are a lot of players in the 70s, 80s, 90s who put up way better numbers in Boston than with their other teams. (That trend was sort-of ended by Joe Thornton and the closing of Boston Garden.) I don't know if it was the small-ice surface, the teams' style, the aggressive fans, or what, but this applied to a lot of players.

Examples:
Phil Esposito
Ken Hodge
Barry Pederson
Cam Neely
Joe Juneau
Adam Oates (in points, anyway)

Orr would've done very well if he'd stayed with Boston through the early-80s. The question is, would he have stayed with Boston?

 

[BobbyAwe]

i wonder if the real question isn't whether bobby orr would be the undisputed greatest player of all time, or if the biggest consequence to an alternate history with a healthy orr is where phil esposito would rank.

if bobby orr was healthy, would they have even needed to trade esposito and hodge for park and ratelle? and in the eight games before the trade in '76, espo scored at a 106 point pace without orr. once he was traded, he slowed down from that and scored basically 80 points a year for the last five full seasons of his career.

I think they might have traded Esposito anyway? The feeling on Espo was that he, already a slowish skater, was slowing down even more and would soon be only a power play specialist. If you take his last 2 years with Boston combined with the rest of his career with the Rangers, 47% of his goals were on the power play, so I think their assessment was right, although he and Ratelle scored about the same number of points after the trade in their remaining years.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

a correction: in '91, oates not only placed exactly the same in league scoring as he did in boston (3rd), he also was on pace for a mind-boggling 158 points if prorated to '93's 84 game schedule. that would have placed him second, leapfrogging lafontaine and only two points behind mario.

I think they might have traded Esposito anyway? The feeling on Espo was that he, already a slowish skater, was slowing down even more and would soon be only a power play specialist. If you take his last 2 years with Boston combined with the rest of his career with the Rangers, 47% of his goals were on the power play, so I think their assessment was right, although he and Ratelle scored about the same number of points after the trade in their remaining years.

interesting. i wonder if orr would have cared whether they had espo there or paek/ratelle. and even if he did, would he have been too much of a choirboy to say anything to management?

 

[BobbyAwe]

interesting. i wonder if orr would have cared whether they had espo there or paek/ratelle. and even if he did, would he have been too much of a choirboy to say anything to management?

I think because of their friendship he would have wanted Esposito to stay, but other than that I don't think he would have been upset with the trade? Ratelle was just as effective as Espo at that point.

 

[BobbyAwe]

One Bobby stat that is particularly impressive is that, in his last 3 years (one with Boston, 2 with Chicago) wherein he played only 36 total games virtually on one leg, he had 45 points. Over a point a game when he shouldn't have even been playing. Apart from the knee he would have been at his absolute best at that age. No telling what those years would have been like?

Also in that first year with Chicago, (1976-77) in which he played 20 games, he was one of only 2 players on the team that was in the "plus" column (+/-). He led the team at +6 and the other guy was +1.

 

[VanIslander]

He would have had more than the mere 7 great seasons he had.

(He was impressive his rookie and sophomore season as a youngster with potential. They weren't among his all-time great seasons.)

 

[The Panther]

One Bobby stat that is particularly impressive is that, in his last 3 years (one with Boston, 2 with Chicago) wherein he played only 36 total games virtually on one leg, he had 45 points. Over a point a game when he shouldn't have even been playing. Apart from the knee he would have been at his absolute best at that age. No telling what those years would have been like?

Also in that first year with Chicago, (1976-77) in which he played 20 games, he was one of only 2 players on the team that was in the "plus" column (+/-). He led the team at +6 and the other guy was +1.

Those stats have always jumped out at me, too. With Chicago, in 26 total games, he had 27 points and was +8. Obviously too small a sample to extract anything meaningful, but it pro-rates to 83 points and +25. In either 1976-77 or 1978-79, those would have been easily the best such rates on the whole team.

(He was impressive his rookie and sophomore season as a youngster with potential. They weren't among his all-time great seasons.)

He was the Norris winner in his second season, however...