If A.O. is Calder eligible, should Gretzky have been?

[Stephen]

Ovechkin should be eligible just as Makarov was eligible and Samsonov was eligible and just as Selanne and Bure should have been eligible.

Gretzky, for the record, also should have been eligible, and deserved it more than Ray Bourque, who didn't have nearly the kind of career Gretzky had.

 

[Verbeek]

If it is because of "politics", I find it interesting that the NHL would legitimize the quality of a competitor league by considering one of their players to no longer be a rookie. Also, I think it would be interesting, and appropriate, for the NHL to officially revisit the topic.

Just get over it. They didn't liegitimize the WHA, they were more into punishing the players for signing with WHA teams instead of the NHL clubs that drafted them.

I don't even know what you mean by "revisit the topic"... do you mean go back and hand Gretzky the Calder and just forget Bourque? Kinda weird. I'm sure Gretzky is over it, as it was his choice to sign in the WHA instead of the NHL, so he knew full well that he wouldn't be entilted to any NHL awards for a long long time.

Just think if the WHA and NHL never merged. If the WHA was strong enough to last.. what then? I think Gretzky had a 10 year commitment to the Oilers or something like that, so he knew full well what he was in for.

 

[David Puddy]

The World Hockey Association was a major league. That is why Gretzky was not eligible to win the Calder in his second major league season.

Ovechkin played in an elite league, which is not a major leauge, nor is it a minor league.

In addition to the NHL and WHA, there have been two other major hockey leagues, the Pacific Coast Hockey Associationand the Western Canada Hockey League. The PCHA was operational from 1911 through 1926. The WCHL was operational from 1921-1926.

 

[ScaredStreit]

I'd have to agree with you. But you can't compare Ovechkin to Gretzky. I honestly say that Gretzky is the most overrated player of all time. Yeah he was great, but come on. The guy rarely played defensively, or gave out the big hits (two things Ovechkin does). Offensively Gretzky's one of the best and in the top 5, but all around I find him VERY overrated. I'd take Lemieux, Bossy, Messier, Lafleur, Richard or Howe over him anyday if their prime were all availible.

Anyways yes I do think Gretzky should have been nominated and won the Calder in 80.

 

[David Puddy]

I'd have to agree with you. But you can't compare Ovechkin to Gretzky. I honestly say that Gretzky is the most overrated player of all time. Yeah he was great, but come on. The guy rarely played defensively, or gave out the big hits (two things Ovechkin does). Offensively Gretzky's one of the best and in the top 5, but all around I find him VERY overrated. I'd take Lemieux, Bossy, Messier, Lafleur, Richard or Howe over him anyday if their prime were all availible.

Anyways yes I do think Gretzky should have been nominated and won the Calder in 80.

Playing defensively at wing is a lot easier than doing it at center.

The players thought enough of Gretzy to award him the Lester B. Pearson Award five out of six times, and the sports writers thought enough of him to vote him the Hart Memorial Trophy nine out of ten times.

 

[Ogopogo*]

I'd have to agree with you. But you can't compare Ovechkin to Gretzky. I honestly say that Gretzky is the most overrated player of all time. Yeah he was great, but come on. The guy rarely played defensively, or gave out the big hits (two things Ovechkin does). Offensively Gretzky's one of the best and in the top 5, but all around I find him VERY overrated. I'd take Lemieux, Bossy, Messier, Lafleur, Richard or Howe over him anyday if their prime were all availible.

Anyways yes I do think Gretzky should have been nominated and won the Calder in 80.

I KNEW chooch had a twin brother. Good work buddy.

 

[Ogopogo*]

The World Hockey Association was a major league. That is why Gretzky was not eligible to win the Calder in his second major league season.

Ovechkin played in an elite league, which is not a major leauge, nor is it a minor league.

In addition to the NHL and WHA, there have been two other major hockey leagues, the Pacific Coast Hockey Associationand the Western Canada Hockey League. The PCHA was operational from 1911 through 1926. The WCHL was operational from 1921-1926.

You forgot the NHA - the precursor to the NHL. It ran from 1910 - 1917

 

[ScaredStreit]

Playing defensively at wing is a lot easier than doing it at center.

The players thought enough of Gretzy to award him the Lester B. Pearson Award five out of six times, and the sports writers thought enough of him to vote him the Hart Memorial Trophy nine out of ten times.

I don't agree it's easier for a winger, rather then a center at all. Center is considered a forward position, but commonly referred to as the 3rd defensemen. Usually wingers only need to worry about covering the points, where as the centermen has the general center area of the ice inside of the defensive zone-where most goals occur from. Centers have to cover MUCH more on defense then wingers, and yeah in a way I guess you could consider that easier. But it goes to the person who plays their position, as a rounded person-not just scoring.

Don't get me wrong Gretzky was a GREAT player, even if I think he's overrated, he still makes my top 5 best centers of all time.

 

[David Puddy]

You forgot the NHA - the precursor to the NHL. It ran from 1910 - 1917

Is the National Hockey Association considered a major league?

I will have to look into the criteria for a hockey league to be considered a "major league." The HHOF site may have some information.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Is the National Hockey Association considered a major league?

I will have to look into the criteria for a hockey league to be considered a "major league." The HHOF site may have some information.

The NHA was more worthy of the title "major" than the WHA ever was. The NHA was the same league as the NHL. The reason the NHA disbanded and the NHL was formed was because the rest of the league owners hated Eddie Livingstone, the Toronto owner and the easiest way to get rid of him was to start another league - taking all of the players with them.

 

[David Puddy]

The NHA was more worthy of the title "major" than the WHA ever was. The NHA was the same league as the NHL. The reason the NHA disbanded and the NHL was formed was because the rest of the league owners hated Eddie Livingstone, the Toronto owner and the easiest way to get rid of him was to start another league - taking all of the players with them.

The tallent level of the WHA was close to the tallent of the NHL after the WHA started to gain the service of European players. The one very negative thing that makes the WHA questionable is the fact that several teams folded midway through seasons.

Also, the fact that the NHL merged with the WHA and took four of their remaining six teams (Edmonton, Winnipeg, Hartford and Quebec) into the NHL lends credence to the "major league" status.

I know that the NHA was the forerunner of the NHL, but I have never seen anything that lists it as a major league.

Looking at baseball history, the Western League became the American League in 1900 and was declared a major league by league president Ban Johnson for the 1901 season. By the 1903 season, the National League recognized the American League as a major league.

Is their some historical panel for hockey that recognizes which leagues were major leagues?

 

[albertGQ]

Just get over it. They didn't liegitimize the WHA, they were more into punishing the players for signing with WHA teams instead of the NHL clubs that drafted them.

I don't even know what you mean by "revisit the topic"... do you mean go back and hand Gretzky the Calder and just forget Bourque? Kinda weird. I'm sure Gretzky is over it, as it was his choice to sign in the WHA instead of the NHL, so he knew full well that he wouldn't be entilted to any NHL awards for a long long time.

Just think if the WHA and NHL never merged. If the WHA was strong enough to last.. what then? I think Gretzky had a 10 year commitment to the Oilers or something like that, so he knew full well what he was in for.

Gretzky couldn't have signed with the NHL, he was an underager.

And he knew what he was getting into. He even stated that in his Ultimate Gretzky DVD. He thought once he signed that contract with the Oilers of the WHA, that he would never play in the NHL because he would be playing in the WHA for his entire career

 

[Ogopogo*]

The tallent level of the WHA was close to the tallent of the NHL after the WHA started to gain the service of European players. The one very negative thing that makes the WHA questionable is the fact that several teams folded midway through seasons.

Also, the fact that the NHL merged with the WHA and took four of their remaining six teams (Edmonton, Winnipeg, Hartford and Quebec) into the NHL lends credence to the "major league" status.

I know that the NHA was the forerunner of the NHL, but I have never seen anything that lists it as a major league.

Looking at baseball history, the Western League became the American League in 1900 and was declared a major league by league president Ban Johnson for the 1901 season. By the 1903 season, the National League recognized the American League as a major league.

Is their some historical panel for hockey that recognizes which leagues were major leagues?

I don't know who "officially" determines major vs. minor. Myself, I look that the players that were in the league to make that determination.

The NHA was comprised of virtually every player that was a star in the early NHL so, I consider it a major league. Guys like Joe Malone, Didier Pitre etc.

With the WHA, players like Andre Lacroix and Rob Ftorek were stars but they failed to shine in the NHL. I am somewhat on the fence with the WHA because it was not exactly an equal to the NHL as the PCHA, NHA and WCHL were but, players like Gretzky, Stoughton, Messier, Gartner and Nilsson went on to excellent stints in the NHL after their WHA experience.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Ovechkin should be eligible just as Makarov was eligible and Samsonov was eligible and just as Selanne and Bure should have been eligible.

Gretzky, for the record, also should have been eligible, and deserved it more than Ray Bourque, who didn't have nearly the kind of career Gretzky had.

we are comparing one of the greatest forwards to ever play to one of the greatest defenseman to ever play the game.
This is like comparing Joe Montana to Lawrence Taylor in football careers. You jsut cant do it IMO.
Both Gretz and Bourque had HOF careers at the positions they played. Comparing the points that Gretzky had to what Bourque had is foolish and makes no sense.

 

[Ogopogo*]

we are comparing one of the greatest forwards to ever play to one of the greatest defenseman to ever play the game.
This is like comparing Joe Montana to Lawrence Taylor in football careers. You jsut cant do it IMO.
Both Gretz and Bourque had HOF careers at the positions they played. Comparing the points that Gretzky had to what Bourque had is foolish and makes no sense.

IMO you can definitely compare them. I have Gretzky as the #1 player on my list and Bourque comes in at #8.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I'd have to agree with you. But you can't compare Ovechkin to Gretzky. I honestly say that Gretzky is the most overrated player of all time. Yeah he was great, but come on. The guy rarely played defensively, or gave out the big hits (two things Ovechkin does). Offensively Gretzky's one of the best and in the top 5, but all around I find him VERY overrated. I'd take Lemieux, Bossy, Messier, Lafleur, Richard or Howe over him anyday if their prime were all availible.

Anyways yes I do think Gretzky should have been nominated and won the Calder in 80.

Wow. I don't think any voters have ever clamoured to have Bossy or Lemieux as Selke finalists. You can't criticize Gretzky for his defensive play, and not criticize Lemieux and Bossy for their defensive deficiencies. Richard and Howe were great all-round forces, but there are six-year-olds who know that.

As for the debate: I don't care. And here's why I don't care: Wayne doesn't care. I don't think Wayne looks back on his career and says "Geez, my career isn't complete because I didn't win the Calder in 1980." I'd be surprised if Wayne has thought about it in the last 25 years. If he has, it's likely only been when someone asked him about it. I'm sure Wayne thinks more about his four Stanley Cups, his plethora of statistical records, his nine Hart Trophies, his record five Pearson Trophies (named the best player in the league by his PEERS), his Olympic gold medal, his World Cup trophy, his family, his many friends in the game, and pulling off a true miracle: winning a playoff series with the Phoenix Coyotes.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

IMO you can definitely compare them. I have Gretzky as the #1 player on my list and Bourque comes in at #8.

how? they played 2 differant positions, you cannot look at the stats and say so and so who was better. both had HOF careers at their position.
Might as well compare Orr to Mario or Robinson to Howe then

 

[ScaredStreit]

how? they played 2 differant positions, you cannot look at the stats and say so and so who was better. both had HOF careers at their position.
Might as well compare Orr to Mario or Robinson to Howe then

I agree. In my oppinion the only positions in hockey you can compare are LW and RW. I Wouldn't even compare C to them, since it's a different position, although obviously a lot closer then defense is.

It's like comparing Gretzky to Roy.

 

[Ogopogo*]

how? they played 2 differant positions, you cannot look at the stats and say so and so who was better. both had HOF careers at their position.
Might as well compare Orr to Mario or Robinson to Howe then

There are several things you can compare other than stats. When I have more time, perhaps I will get into it.

 

[Jumptheshark]

it was politics

also

Up to about 1990--the NHL consider all other european leagues as amatuer and beneath them