I was going to give a big breakdown, but it comes down to two words: Alex Pietrangelo

Pucker77

Registered User
May 10, 2012
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Minnesota
It’s a pipe dream to get Pietrangelo and keep the team competent long term.

whatever you think Pietrangelo would sign with the Leafs for, the Blues have probably already offered that. You are going to have to pay a massive amount to get him to leave.

Staying competitive with 2 guys making $10+ mil is tough, the Leafs have 3 and if they want Pietrangelo, they will have 4.

The exact reasons people want to trade Marner or Nylander away are the exact reasons why teams will not offer a fair trade for them.

As an example: If you think Marner is a soft winger who is not worth his contract and that trading him will create cap flexibility for the Leafs, then why would another team offer a good trade for someone who could ruin their cap flexibility and is a soft winger not worth his contract?
 
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TMLisSRYinGerman

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Aug 4, 2020
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Please be patient with Marner. He has over 10 more years and already had great point producing season and he is also on the PK. I know some say he is 'soft' and so on but it's not only his fault we lost. This team is mentally weak and has clearly issues in that category. Sure we should upgrade the D and we could trade away Marner but not at this point please, when his value looks the lowest. Maybe he has a 100+ point season next year again? If you retain 1-2 mil or maybe even nothing he could net us a top 2 D-Men. Marner at 9 mil has a TON of value.

Signing Pietrangelo for 11 mil would not be good move since his value will only go down (who wants him in 4 years when he declines and will still make 11 mil for 3 more years? I for sure not). If you sign him the only player you should get rid of is JT which is unfortunately not going to happen.
 

Man Bear Pig

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Aug 10, 2008
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Fans always forget these players are people too. It's not only about money and logo on your jersey.
You arent going to find sympathy from this fanbase if you're Marner or Nylander at this point. Both of them squeezed out every single penny that they could and now they're feeling the wrath of playing here. When you come across as selfish and greedy, nobody cares about your humanity.
 

ruaware41

Typical
Oct 22, 2019
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Leaf fans love their shiny new toys. They think just pumping as many star names on the wrong side of 30 will fix the underlying issues of this team.

How did acquiring big strong #1 CENTRE two-way beast, plays the right way, franchise talent John Tavares help the Leafs? They got eliminated in the first round again, and then didn't even make the playoffs.

Pietrangelo's star never glowed brighter than Tavares's. Once this experiment fails we'll hop right back to the next big name on free agency.
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
Please be patient with Marner. He has over 10 more years and already had great point producing season and he is also on the PK. I know some say he is 'soft' and so on but it's not only his fault we lost. This team is mentally weak and has clearly issues in that category. Sure we should upgrade the D and we could trade away Marner but not at this point please, when his value looks the lowest. Maybe he has a 100+ point season next year again? If you retain 1-2 mil or maybe even nothing he could net us a top 2 D-Men. Marner at 9 mil has a TON of value.

Signing Pietrangelo for 11 mil would not be good move since his value will only go down (who wants him in 4 years when he declines and will still make 11 mil for 3 more years? I for sure not). If you sign him the only player you should get rid of is JT which is unfortunately not going to happen.
shea weber is 35 and leading the habs into the playoffs
heck chara is 43 and still gives everyone the fits
Giodarno is 36 and a very solid top D
burns/kieth/suter/bowmeester all guys still playing well into their mid 30s
 

hockeywiz542

Registered User
May 26, 2008
15,909
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SIMMONS: Why can’t the Leafs be more like the Raptors?

HOW LEAFS CAN LAND PIETRANGELO

How do you get an A-grade defenceman?

Kyle Dubas was asked the question at the Maple Leafs combative year-end availability.

He could have started by saying there aren’t many of them in the NHL. Probably less than 10 in all.

But one, Alex Pietrangelo, is a pending free agent. That’s Pietrangelo from just outside Toronto. He’s top five on my list.

And here’s how I get him.

I take Cody Ceci’s $4.5 million — he’s a free agent — and add it with Tyson Barrie’s $2.5 million. Both should be leaving. Now you take $3 million from either Alex Kerfoot, Kasperi Kapanen or Andreas Johnsson and you’ve got $10 million to play with in a soft free-agent class, considering the economics of all of professional sport.

If Pietrangelo has an inclination to come home, you can probably sign him somewhere between $8-$9 million a year. If the Leafs have Pietrangelo on one pair, perhaps with Jake Muzzin and Morgan Rielly on the second pair, that changes everything about the team.

Does Pietrangelo want to leave St. Louis? We don’t know.

Does he want to come to Toronto? We don’t know.

We do know this: Free agents won’t be getting the kind of money they would have received under regular circumstances. It makes Pietrangelo possible. One signing could change everything for the Leafs.

And didn’t we think that once before?
 
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biotk

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Jan 3, 2017
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And here’s how I get him.

I take Cody Ceci’s $4.5 million — he’s a free agent — and add it with Tyson Barrie’s $2.5 million. Both should be leaving. Now you take $3 million from either Alex Kerfoot, Kasperi Kapanen or Andreas Johnsson and you’ve got $10 million to play with in a soft free-agent class, considering the economics of all of professional sport.

If Pietrangelo has an inclination to come home, you can probably sign him somewhere between $8-$9 million a year.

There is this thing called armchair GM of capfriendly that Simmons really should check out. Yes, make one for next year it won't have Ceci or Barrie and you can remove one of KKJ - I removed Kerfoot because he has the highest cap. When I do that I have 10.4M to work with! Victory!

Unfortunately, that is with a roster of only 8 forwards, 3Ds and 2Gs. Adding Piet would bring them up to 4Ds, but I still think they would probably want to play games with a couple more players.

If you take away all three of Kerfoot, Kapanen and Johnsson and fill up the roster with much cheaper replacements so you have 12Fs, 5Ds and 2Ds you are still only looking at having a little more than 9M for Pietro - and that is while carrying no spares.

And, as I have said repeatedly, the cap is not going up for at least 3 years - and at that point it will probably be going up very slowly for the next couple years after that. With Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Pietro, any other player on your roster who is an RFA or UFA is gone because you can't give them a raise. It would be those 5 surrounded by 13 AHL level players for the duration of Matthews' contract.

This isn't a fairy tale. The big-4 contracts cause massive problems. Big-5 would cause even bigger problems.
 
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Disgraced Cosmonaut

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Oct 26, 2002
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There is this thing called armchair GM of capfriendly that Simmons really should check out. Yes, make one for next year it won't have Ceci or Barrie and you can remove one of KKJ - I removed Kerfoot because he has the highest cap. When I do that I have 10.4M to work with! Victory!

Unfortunately, that is with a roster of only 8 forwards, 3Ds and 2Gs. Adding Piet would bring them up to 4Ds, but I still think they would probably want to play games with a couple more players.

If you take away all three of Kerfoot, Kapanen and Johnsson and fill up the roster with much cheaper replacements so you have 12Fs, 5Ds and 2Ds you are still only looking at having a little more than 9M for Pietro - and that is while carrying no spares.

And, as I have said repeatedly, the cap is not going up for at least 3 years - and at that point it will probably be going up very slowly for the next couple years after that. With Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Pietro, any other player on your roster who is an RFA or UFA is gone because you can't give them a raise. It would be those 5 surrounded by 13 AHL level players for the duration of Matthews' contract.

This isn't a fairy tale. The big-4 contracts cause massive problems. Big-5 would cause even bigger problems.
This a well thought-out post.
The 8-4-2 player split, with AP on D, shows you that one bigger contract will have to go for several pieces.
 

Bluebear

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Nov 30, 2018
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If was going to sign AP to the Leafs, Marner would be the contract I'd move out. AP will be expensive, will need to clear tons of space. I would try to get a hot D prospect for Marner. failing that I would just trade him for the best futures deal on the table, and be happy knowing I made room for AP and brought some balance to the cap. Marner is great, but he gets paid to be a premier player and his game lacks 2 key elements(physicality and and prime time shot). A lot of people would rather trade Nylander, but his lower salary works better for the team, if adding AP.

The best would be to make a trade for really young D about to hit their stride. (if that is even out there for trade)
 

BertCorbeau

F*ck cancer - RIP Fugu and Buffaloed
Jan 6, 2012
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With regarding to AP, it depends on how you think he'll age.

I haven't watched him enough but his style lends me to think he can remain a top 4 D through his contract, being a top pairing d-man for 3-4 more seasons.

TBH if they're looking at a core shake up, I wouldn't be opposed to signing him. But in doing so I'd move one of Marner or Nylander for futures to create the cap space.

I'd do this because in order to remain competitive in the latter years of those contracts, the Leafs will need to invest in developing talent around $27 million in AP, JT, and Muzzin.

Make no mistake this is a change from a more offensive group to a more balance defensive group.
 

robertmac43

Forever 43!
Mar 31, 2015
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I take Cody Ceci’s $4.5 million — he’s a free agent — and add it with Tyson Barrie’s $2.5 million. Both should be leaving. Now you take $3 million from either Alex Kerfoot, Kasperi Kapanen or Andreas Johnsson and you’ve got $10 million to play with in a soft free-agent class, considering the economics of all of professional sport.
What about the rest of the roster? Still need to fit in some forwards and D with now no money.
 

Nylander88

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Aug 13, 2016
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Tavares is 29 and his contract already looks very suspect. Pietrangelo is already 30 (almost 31). I don't think the Leafs will have fun navigating one 30+ player making 11 million long term, let alone adding another
It's this for me. We don't need to add yet another massive contract for someone headed into the downside of their career. Might not be this year or next, but the contract will end up looking bad at some point. Not to mention you're for sure saying bye to Rielly if you do that, or being forced to unload one of the "big 4". Move one of Johnsson,Kerfoot, Kapanen for Adam Larsson and be done with it. Sign a Gudas, Borowiecki,Demelo to go along with him and that's that. I'll be shocked if Dubas' does anything huge with a big 4 piece.
 

Golden_Jet

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
22,241
10,792
SIMMONS: Why can’t the Leafs be more like the Raptors?

HOW LEAFS CAN LAND PIETRANGELO

How do you get an A-grade defenceman?

Kyle Dubas was asked the question at the Maple Leafs combative year-end availability.

He could have started by saying there aren’t many of them in the NHL. Probably less than 10 in all.

But one, Alex Pietrangelo, is a pending free agent. That’s Pietrangelo from just outside Toronto. He’s top five on my list.

And here’s how I get him.

I take Cody Ceci’s $4.5 million — he’s a free agent — and add it with Tyson Barrie’s $2.5 million. Both should be leaving. Now you take $3 million from either Alex Kerfoot, Kasperi Kapanen or Andreas Johnsson and you’ve got $10 million to play with in a soft free-agent class, considering the economics of all of professional sport.

If Pietrangelo has an inclination to come home, you can probably sign him somewhere between $8-$9 million a year. If the Leafs have Pietrangelo on one pair, perhaps with Jake Muzzin and Morgan Rielly on the second pair, that changes everything about the team.

Does Pietrangelo want to leave St. Louis? We don’t know.

Does he want to come to Toronto? We don’t know.

We do know this: Free agents won’t be getting the kind of money they would have received under regular circumstances. It makes Pietrangelo possible. One signing could change everything for the Leafs.

And didn’t we think that once before?

Without Ceci and Barrie, Leafs only have 5 million in space.

One thing I didn’t understand was Kyle saying the leafs have some cap space that the public don’t see.
 

Nylander88

Registered User
Aug 13, 2016
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It's doable.

Move Nylander and one of Kapanen/Johnsson (preferably Kap) and there's enough space for Pietrangelo.

Where it gets tricky is filling out the forward corps. I wonder if Corey Perry and Joe Thornton would take league minimum to play bottom-6. I'm also assuming Robertson will crack the roster next season.
That's moving those players for no money back either. Teams usually don't take 7 mil contracts and give no salary back
 

Nylander88

Registered User
Aug 13, 2016
4,915
4,821
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SIMMONS: Why can’t the Leafs be more like the Raptors?

HOW LEAFS CAN LAND PIETRANGELO

And here’s how I get him.

I take Cody Ceci’s $4.5 million — he’s a free agent — and add it with Tyson Barrie’s $2.5 million. Both should be leaving. Now you take $3 million from either Alex Kerfoot, Kasperi Kapanen or Andreas Johnsson and you’ve got $10 million to play with in a soft free-agent class, considering the economics of all of professional sport.

If Pietrangelo has an inclination to come home, you can probably sign him somewhere between $8-$9 million a year. If the Leafs have Pietrangelo on one pair, perhaps with Jake Muzzin and Morgan Rielly on the second pair, that changes everything about the team.

Does Pietrangelo want to leave St. Louis? We don’t know.

Does he want to come to Toronto? We don’t know.

We do know this: Free agents won’t be getting the kind of money they would have received under regular circumstances. It makes Pietrangelo possible. One signing could change everything for the Leafs.

And didn’t we think that once before?
You completely forgot that Engvall will make 1.25 mil this year. Not 925k. Campbell will count for 1.65 mil this year on his new contract. Muzzin will cost us an extra 1.65 million (4mil to his shiny new 5.65mil contract). Just Holl will start counting for 2 mil this coming year, a 1.325 mil raise from his 675k he counted for this season. Then you have Dermott and Mikheyev extensions to consider. So that 10 mil you just magically made appear with moving a 3mil guy for no salary...you instantly lost 4.275 million just in pay raises. So quick math now..you realistically, with moving a third liner for nothing but picks or a prospect back, have 5.725million to play with. You have to give pay raises out to Dermott or Mikheyev unless you want to just also let them go or try and move them for whatever you can get. You have Kyle Clifford who I guess you'll just be letting walk. And roster spots that still need filled out. Every player you add chips at that. Robertson in on the third line, money saved, but now you have to take 850k off of that figure you're working with. There's a lot more to it than just "boom, look at this 10 million I found guys!"
 

Legion34

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
17,986
8,088
It’s a pipe dream to get Pietrangelo and keep the team competent long term.

whatever you think Pietrangelo would sign with the Leafs for, the Blues have probably already offered that. You are going to have to pay a massive amount to get him to leave.

Staying competitive with 2 guys making $10+ mil is tough, the Leafs have 3 and if they want Pietrangelo, they will have 4.

The exact reasons people want to trade Marner or Nylander away are the exact reasons why teams will not offer a fair trade for them.

As an example: If you think Marner is a soft winger who is not worth his contract and that trading him will create cap flexibility for the Leafs, then why would another team offer a good trade for someone who could ruin their cap flexibility and is a soft winger not worth his contract?

because the leafs care about cap hit. Not cash.... marner is owed 750k this year in a global pandemic. And 7 million over 5.
Which is JVR money.

Marner has massive value in a pandemic
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,850
51,520
It's this for me. We don't need to add yet another massive contract for someone headed into the downside of their career. Might not be this year or next, but the contract will end up looking bad at some point. Not to mention you're for sure saying bye to Rielly if you do that, or being forced to unload one of the "big 4". Move one of Johnsson,Kerfoot, Kapanen for Adam Larsson and be done with it. Sign a Gudas, Borowiecki,Demelo to go along with him and that's that. I'll be shocked if Dubas' does anything huge with a big 4 piece.

But to be fair to Pietrangelo, the issues that could cause Tavares to decline prematurely at 31 may not apply in his case. I can't comment on the wear and tear on him as a defenseman, but he's a great skater and could last a lot longer as an elite player. Still, I wouldn't go out on a limb to sell the idea that he could be our Chara for the next decade at his age, but I think Tavares is a player who is destined to age a little bit more noticeably than others who have better skating. Hell, even a 36 year old Spezza looks more sprite than him on some nights.
 

ruaware41

Typical
Oct 22, 2019
1,459
1,384
Players get older and get worse over time. Tavares was once the player that carried his mediocre team on his back to win a playoff round. Go follow the Blues game tonight. Vancouver is up 2-0 so you got at least 2 games to see how he plays. It's something at least aside from name value, not the worst way to get a good way to get an understanding of the player. Near the end of the first , 0-0 right now
 

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