Ansar Khan: I reckon this is the plan...

[njx9]

Green, Z and Vanek aren't exactly garbage, their history of PP production is incredible. I guess this year they all got together, discussed things, and decided to play awful on the powerplay.

Or, of course, there's the alternate explanation that when you're relying on a bunch of guys over 30, their production tends to decline. Z's PP production at 26 is entirely irrelevant to his PP production at 36. Green is not the same player he was when he was PPG with Washington.

Let's stop acting like Blashill is the sole reason (though I don't think he's blameless) that a team, who's best players are all at an age where production invariably declines, has declining production.

Better coaching might mean that a team that lacks any semblance of 1st line talent might have the 28th best PP instead of the 30th. Some actual talent would move the needle FAR more.

 

[Bench]

And I heard it was a girl but they went with Ken anyway out of obligation

There's no limit on an NHL agent cut. So we'll just guess it's like 4%, which would be average? The combined cut of those 3 latest contracts would be nearly $3.5 million dollars. That's just their latest deals.

I'd name my kid whatever you want if I could negotiate with Ken Holland on behalf of a Michigan born kid.

 

[InjuredChoker]

the weird thing is that, usually, when a player declines, ages etc. his ES production suffers the most. they lose their legs, can't win puck battles anymore etc. on the PP the production doesn't decline as sharply since it doesn't need as much physical skillset.

however, with wings players this season, almost the opposite has happened. veterans are producing great 5on5. some are producing better rate 5on5 than they are on the PP. insane.

zetterberg is on pace to have his 3rd best season in 5on5 production since '08.

 

[Bench]

It actually works both ways though. And for some guys its completely valid.

All teams use complimentary pieces on the PP and these guys should not be considered the problem. So yes, in the instance of abdelkader, its reasonable to say his numbers would improve with a more functional pp. However, to expect him or other complimentary pieces to drive PP success is simply unrealistic.

You don't hold pp struggles against the complimentary pieces. These struggles should be held against the PP drivers (Green, Kronwall, Z, Nyquist and Vanek)

Here's my problem, though.

If Abdelkader is a "complimentary piece" and he can't "drive the PP" then why the hell is he signed to a $30 million dollar deal over 7 years. He stopped being complimentary when he got the max UFA term possible and is #6 in total ice time per game among forwards.

So now we loop back around to, "Well he's only getting that ice because the team sucks." OK, cool. Why does the team suck? Is it because guys like Abdelkader are being paid and treated like core players? Maybe that's part of it, you know? Maybe the serpent is eating its tail.

 

[SirloinUB]

Here's my problem, though.

If Abdelkader is a "complimentary piece" and he can't "drive the PP" then why the hell is he signed to a $30 million dollar deal over 7 years. He stopped being complimentary when he got the max UFA term possible and is #6 in total ice time per game among forwards.

So now we loop back around to, "Well he's only getting that ice because the team sucks." OK, cool. Why does the team suck? Is it because guys like Abdelkader are being paid and treated like core players? Maybe that's part of it, you know? Maybe the serpent is eating its tail.

Bolded is an entirely different issue though. If you want roast kenny for handing out a 7 year deal, go right ahead.

However, in the cap era you can't have 10 players on the PP who you would consider "drivers"; simple math indicates you need a few complimentary pieces for your pp. So my point is that expecting Abdelkader (or other complimentary pieces) to drive the PP success is crazy, even if they are viewed as a long term asset by management.

 

[Pavels Dog]

letang isn't a great PPQB.

Well he's the kind of d-man that people here would say we need in order to become better and start playing a decent PP. I think he's good. Maybe not miles better than Green on the PP though.

when was pitts PP that bad? must have been closer to decade ago.

10/11. It wasn't all that great last year either, 16th.

Or, of course, there's the alternate explanation that when you're relying on a bunch of guys over 30, their production tends to decline. Z's PP production at 26 is entirely irrelevant to his PP production at 36. Green is not the same player he was when he was PPG with Washington.

Let's stop acting like Blashill is the sole reason (though I don't think he's blameless) that a team, who's best players are all at an age where production invariably declines, has declining production.

Better coaching might mean that a team that lacks any semblance of 1st line talent might have the 28th best PP instead of the 30th. Some actual talent would move the needle FAR more.

So Zetterberg is able to produce better numbers on ES than he has in years (ALREADY more ES points than last season, and same total as the year before.. with 22 games left), but he's become so bad that he can't produce when there's more time and space, the situation where it's logical that things are easier for him? Vanek's also a beast at ES with a major bounce-back season, why does he lose 100% of his hockey IQ when the other team loses a player? I don't expect 30 goals from Green but he is scoring at about half the pace he was last season on the PP. Half.

It takes a tinfoil hat to put our PP woes down to the age or quality of our players. It would make much, much more sense if this team was awful at ES and at least okay/mediocre on the PP where their old, slow but skilled and smart players have more room. I don't even expect a top 20 PP out of this group. I just don't think there's any reason other than coaching that they're among the worst in history.

 

[Frk It]

It actually works both ways though. And for some guys its completely valid.

All teams use complimentary pieces on the PP and these guys should not be considered the problem. So yes, in the instance of abdelkader, its reasonable to say his numbers would improve with a more functional pp. However, to expect him or other complimentary pieces to drive PP success is simply unrealistic.

You don't hold pp struggles against the complimentary pieces. These struggles should be held against the PP drivers (Green, Kronwall, Z, Nyquist and Vanek)

Bolded is an entirely different issue though. If you want roast kenny for handing out a 7 year deal, go right ahead.

However, in the cap era you can't have 10 players on the PP who you would consider "drivers"; simple math indicates you need a few complimentary pieces for your pp. So my point is that expecting Abdelkader (or other complimentary pieces) to drive the PP success is crazy, even if they are viewed as a long term asset by management.

In this context, the correct word is complementary.

(Sorry, not trying to be a snob... just a pet peeve of mine!)

 

[InjuredChoker]

Well he's the kind of d-man that people here would say we need in order to become better and start playing a decent PP. I think he's good. Maybe not miles better than Green on the PP though.

he's probably worse than green. not the current version though.

those people are wrong on the pp part.

doughty is the dman i want second most in the league and he also sucks on the powerplay.


but i don't usually consider pp success that important.

10/11. It wasn't all that great last year either, 16th.

you mean the year when crosby and malkin both missed half the season?

% wise they might have been 16th last year (didn't check) but in per pp minutes rate and overall goals, they were 12th. not as good as one can expect from that group but marginals were pretty small. half a dozen bounces in their favor and they'd have had a top 5 PP.

Vanek's also a beast at ES with a major bounce-back season, why does he lose 100% of his hockey IQ when the other team loses a player?

vanek's production on the mad advantage is fine, even better than what he had in minny overall. only guy on the wings whose doing fine there.

 

[Bench]

Bolded is an entirely different issue though. If you want roast kenny for handing out a 7 year deal, go right ahead.

However, in the cap era you can't have 10 players on the PP who you would consider "drivers"; simple math indicates you need a few complimentary pieces for your pp. So my point is that expecting Abdelkader (or other complimentary pieces) to drive the PP success is crazy, even if they are viewed as a long term asset by management.

How is it a different issue if Abdelkader is being counted on to score goals?

Abdelkader has the 4th highest cap hit among forwards and 3rd highest salary this year. He's one of our key veterans. If he's not a driver, who the hell is? Old man Zetterberg? Frans "career high 20 PP points" Nielsen? 20-year-old Larkin? Or Nyquist and Tatar?

So if there's no drivers, how the hell is this team pushed against the cap? And why can't we blame Abdelkader for soaking up that cap while not performing? If you need to pair him with an elite center, but you don't have any room for an elite center...

I'm just struggling to understand why there's so much critical armor built around these players because we call them ALL complimentary players.

 

[SirloinUB]

In this context, the correct word is complementary.

(Sorry, not trying to be a snob... just a pet peeve of mine!)

Thanks for keeping my point clear

 

[Frk It]

I'm just struggling to understand why there's so much critical armor built around these players because we call them ALL complimentary players.

Stop that... don't make me smack your hand.

Thanks for keeping my point clear

Did I miss an inside joke or something?.... darnit.

 

[SirloinUB]

How is it a different issue if Abdelkader is being counted on to score goals?

Abdelkader has the 4th highest cap hit among forwards and 3rd highest salary this year. He's one of our key veterans. If he's not a driver, who the hell is? Old man Zetterberg? Frans "career high 20 PP points" Nielsen? 20-year-old Larkin? Or Nyquist and Tatar?

So if there's no drivers, how the hell is this team pushed against the cap? And why can't we blame Abdelkader for soaking up that cap while not performing? If you need to pair him with an elite center, but you don't have any room for an elite center...

I'm just struggling to understand why there's so much critical armor built around these players because we call them ALL complimentary players.

Personally, I identify the offensive drivers as Green, Nielsen, Kronwall, Z, Nyquist and Vanek. Those are the guys we should look at when the PP struggles, not the guy who crashes the net for screens and deflections.


Obviously it was on an entirely different scale but would you have blamed Holmstrom when the PP hit some struggles in the 08-09 years? Or would you look to Z, Dats, Lidstrom, Franzen, Rafalski and coaching to right that ship?


And I'm not suggesting than Abby is blame free, but you have to recognize what his role is. He doesnt drive the offense, he complements it.

I think your last point is entirely valid. This team just has too many complementary pieces.

 

[SirloinUB]

Did I miss an inside joke or something?.... darnit.

No joke or satire. Just a genuine thank you the correction.

 

[lomekian]

the weird thing is that, usually, when a player declines, ages etc. his ES production suffers the most. they lose their legs, can't win puck battles anymore etc. on the PP the production doesn't decline as sharply since it doesn't need as much physical skillset.

however, with wings players this season, almost the opposite has happened. veterans are producing great 5on5. some are producing better rate 5on5 than they are on the PP. insane.

zetterberg is on pace to have his 3rd best season in 5on5 production since '08.

From the outside its impossible to be certain whether the PP failure is more on the players or the coaching, but given how the majority of our PP guys are producing somewhere near their peak at 5 on 5 but are all enjoying the worst season of their careers in PP production, there has to be a finger pointed at the coaches in a big way.
Particularly when certain people (Nyquist for example) are continually failing while being used in a role that is different to that which they absolutely killed it at under babcock.

 

[Bench]

Stop that... don't make me smack your hand.

Man I never proofread posts and it's awful sometimes reading the quotes. Nails on chalkboard.

But I think for all intensive purposes you understood the post.

 

[Frk It]

No joke or satire. Just a genuine thank you the correction.

All good bud, no worries.

Man I never proofread posts and it's awful sometimes reading the quotes. Nails on chalkboard.

But I think for all intensive purposes you understood the post.

I knew what you meant, it's just one of those commonly misused things that irk me. But I won't beat you up on it Benchy :p

 

[Bench]

Are you being nice on me or did you gloss over intensive purposes? That's my pet peeve, Professor High Brow.

 

[Frk It]

Are you being nice on me or did you gloss over intensive purposes? That's my pet peeve, Professor High Brow.

Being nice!

 

[InjuredChoker]

From the outside its impossible to be certain whether the PP failure is more on the players or the coaching, but given how the majority of our PP guys are producing somewhere near their peak at 5 on 5 but are all enjoying the worst season of their careers in PP production, there has to be a finger pointed at the coaches in a big way.
Particularly when certain people (Nyquist for example) are continually failing while being used in a role that is different to that which they absolutely killed it at under babcock.

the PP being so bad, the discrepancy between PP and ES scoring.. i think everyone involved with the wings PP is at fault here. including the coaching staff and in a big way, yes.

 

[waltdetroit]

vanek's production on the mad advantage is fine,

It may be a typo, but "mad advantage" is a perfect term for the PP

 

[Run the Jewels]

It sounds like Drew Miller could be our big trade deadline move.

Miller, 33, is a veteran of 551 NHL games and, like Gilbert, would be able to remain in the AHL as an insurance policy until he is needed because he has already cleared waivers. Miller, a potential unrestricted free agent on July 1, told MLive he'd like to be moved before the deadline to get a chance to play in the NHL again.

 

[Retire91]

or they could just wait for a call up and get him for free with Holland paying half his salary. lol

 

[Kyleftlx]

I'm a little bit annoyed that Miller voiced his complaints like that. The team gave him legitimate chances to play and he played poorly. Shut up and do your job. If you perform, you'll be in the NHL. This isn't a Jurco situation where Miller didn't have a chance at all this season, this is 100% Miller just not being good enough. Would any other team even offer him a deal heading into this season? I doubt it.

 

[jkutswings]

I'm a little bit annoyed that Miller voiced his complaints like that. The team gave him legitimate chances to play and he played poorly. Shut up and do your job. If you perform, you'll be in the NHL. This isn't a Jurco situation where Miller didn't have a chance at all this season, this is 100% Miller just not being good enough. Would any other team even offer him a deal heading into this season? I doubt it.

I haven't seen the comments themselves, so I can't speak to the degree of professionalism in whatever language he used.

But I definitely don't have a problem with the concept of him asking to be traded.

I agree he hasn't played well enough to hold a roster spot, but the guy is 33 years old, and on the minor league affiliate of a team that's toward the bottom of the standings, with no immediate improvement in sight. If he can latch on elsewhere, even as emergency depth, and have a chance to join a playoff team...Why is that a bad thing?

EDIT: Just saw his comments, and there's nothing in poor taste:

http://detroitsportsnation.com/detr...wings-drew-miller-wants-out-of-detroit/91013/

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I don't think Miller is mad at the Red Wings. He just wants a shot at the NHL, and if it is with another team then so be it.

Problem is if nobody wants him for free, who is going to take him in a trade?