Speculation: I need elite speculation on Josh Leivo

Randy Randerson

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Jul 28, 2016
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Hyman is the champ for the role he plays, effert he gives and his salary
I'll disagree with that - Hyman looks like a really good checking liner that's shoehorned into a scoring role with elite linemates. He's all effort all the time for sure, but he's woefully ineffective at finishing chances that are created for him, creating chances for his linemates and drawing any defensive interest when we have the puck to give a little more space for his linemates to work. Definite NHL'er, just don't think he's good at the role he's played in at all
 
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LeafsOHLRangers98

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I'll disagree with that - Hyman looks like a really good checking liner that's shoehorned into a scoring role with elite linemates. He's all effort all the time for sure, but he's woefully ineffective at finishing chances that are created for him, creating chances for his linemates and drawing any defensive interest when we have the puck to give a little more space for his linemates to work. Definite NHL'er, just don't think he's good at the role he's played in at all
I'd like to see a Hyman-Gauthier-Brown shutdown line and then set these 3 loose on the rest of the league:

Grundstrom-Matthews-Nylander
Johnsson-Tavares-Marner
Marleau-Kadri-Kapanen

-Grundstrom plays the same game as Hyman with MUCH better hands, and he was our second best forward after Johnsson in the Calder Cup playoffs.
 
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Randy Randerson

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I'd like to see a Hyman-Gauthier-Brown shutdown line and then set these 3 loose on the rest of the league:

Grundstrom-Matthews-Nylander
Johnsson-Tavares-Marner
Marleau-Kadri-Kapanen

-Grundstrom plays the same game as Hyman with MUCH better hands, and he was our second best forward after Johnsson in the Calder Cup playoffs.
I'm not sure if Gauthier is gonna make it, but agree on moving Hyman down. I think Hyman played center his whole way up, so that might be worth a look as the 4th line PK specialist. Grundstrom looks tailor made as a replacement for what Hyman does well with enough offensive talent to be effective when we have the puck as well, that line will be so dangerous if defenses can't just forget about 1/3 of the line

really agree in principle, and I like Hyman, I just think he's misused
 
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Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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I'll disagree with that - Hyman looks like a really good checking liner that's shoehorned into a scoring role with elite linemates. He's all effort all the time for sure, but he's woefully ineffective at finishing chances that are created for him, creating chances for his linemates and drawing any defensive interest when we have the puck to give a little more space for his linemates to work. Definite NHL'er, just don't think he's good at the role he's played in at all

If he was effective as a finisher, he would be an elite power forward...
 
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Stephen

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I'm not sure if Gauthier is gonna make it, but agree on moving Hyman down. I think Hyman played center his whole way up, so that might be worth a look as the 4th line PK specialist. Grundstrom looks tailor made as a replacement for what Hyman does well with enough offensive talent to be effective when we have the puck as well, that line will be so dangerous if defenses can't just forget about 1/3 of the line

really agree in principle, and I like Hyman, I just think he's misused

Having developed Gauthier for so many years, they really ought to try him out as their 4th line center to start the year on that fourth line. Won't get a lot of ice time, but maybe he proves himself as a PKer.
 
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Randy Randerson

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If he was effective as a finisher, he would be an elite power forward...
if he were an elite power forward, he would be worthy of his lineup spot, so that tracks for me. Grundstrom could be that, like a Dustin Brown type

the word "elite" might be strong for both, really just talking about competency as a top 6 type forward, like a Chris Kreider level

Having developed Gauthier for so many years, they really ought to try him out as their 4th line center to start the year on that fourth line. Won't get a lot of ice time, but maybe he proves himself as a PKer.
I think the signing of Tavares means the time to tinker with the lineup (at least for long stretches) is effectively over. I wish we'd done more of it in the last couple of years to see what we have in guys like Leivo when it didn't matter as much

I guess we could try Gauthier for a bit, but I don't think he's been great in the NHL to this point
 
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Vexed

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Frankly when you have as much elite talent as we do in our top 9 really you cannot expect every other spot around those guys to be filled by top end talent as well. Hyman, for what it's worth, does what he is supposed to do and does it well. Would it be nice to fill that spot with a player with better hands? Of course, is it likely that is going to happen? Probably not. It's possible one of the Marlies can do that eventually but they haven't yet and until they do there is really no other viable option. There's no liability with him there and that's really what matters most at this point
 

Menzinger

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I thought he was pretty much done his last stint, but his playoffs with the Marlies might earn him another look if he has a good camp.

Getting a contract means he’s at least got a shot, but I get the impression Babcock isn’t much of a fan, and that’s a hard mountain to climb
 

Randy Randerson

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Frankly when you have as much elite talent as we do in our top 9 really you cannot expect every other spot around those guys to be filled by top end talent as well. Hyman, for what it's worth, does what he is supposed to do and does it well. Would it be nice to fill that spot with a player with better hands? Of course, is it likely that is going to happen? Probably not. It's possible one of the Marlies can do that eventually but they haven't yet and until they do there is really no other viable option. There's no liability with him there and that's really what matters most at this point
I think generally speaking, in the fairly rare situations that teams end up with as many elite core forwards as we have, they don't also have a glut of good ceiling supplementary players which we do. So I don't agree with this in out particular situation, we've got guys to plug in there who are probably going to be better overall impacts than Hyman.

And I agree that he does what he's supposed to, which specifically is to be the 1st guy to a dump in and pin it long enough for reinforcements to get there, but I think we have guys who would be effective at that while also being capable offensive players. Leivo is much more effective at getting the puck back and doing something useful with it than Hyman is, but I don't know if he's got the speed to get there in time as often as Hyman does...but Kapanen, Grundstrom, Brown, Johnsson probably all have those kinds of wheels and affinity for forechecking to be at least passable at the thing Hyman does well while doing the other things much better. It's worth a try if nothing else

also, I don't think the "our core is elite so we have to sacrifice elsewhere" attitude will serve us well if it means accepting a worse option where a better one exists
 

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I'll disagree with that - Hyman looks like a really good checking liner that's shoehorned into a scoring role with elite linemates. He's all effort all the time for sure, but he's woefully ineffective at finishing chances that are created for him, creating chances for his linemates and drawing any defensive interest when we have the puck to give a little more space for his linemates to work. Definite NHL'er, just don't think he's good at the role he's played in at all
This is not true. This is an opinion dressed up as a fact.

Hyman has skill, the thing I’d say he lacks is offensive position IQ. I think he helps whatever line he’s on more than he harms it.

This is a player who put up 54 points in his last year of Big 10 College Hockey and 40 points in his 2nd full NHL season.

I think a lot of Leafs fans like to blame Hyman when Matthews and/or Nylander aren’t producing and I think it’s ridiculous.
 

Randy Randerson

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This is not true. This is an opinion dressed up as a fact.

Hyman has skill, the thing I’d say he lacks is offensive position IQ. I think he helps whatever line he’s on more than he harms it.

This is a player who put up 54 points in his last year of Big 10 College Hockey and 40 points in his 2nd full NHL season.

I think a lot of Leafs fans like to blame Hyman when Matthews and/or Nylander aren’t producing and I think it’s ridiculous.
well, this is a player who shot 6.4% in a full season on one of the most dangerous lines in hockey while getting a disproportionately large number of breakaways and HD area chances. He managed to get up to 10% this year and didn't look good doing it imo, and 40pts playing with those linemates in his 2nd year (at 25 years old, lets not ignore that he's not a normal 2nd year player, he took a long time to get to the NHL) isn't very impressive

the Big 10 argument is lacking some bigtime context - he was 22 on a team that didn't have another important player over the age of 20, playing against teams that had the same kind of age distribution. If you watch his highlights from that year, there wasn't many impressive plays, lots of hard working goals

I'm not blaming Hyman for Matthews/Nylander not producing, they have produced, I believe that Hyman doesn't help them produce. He's stone handed and shoots center-mass way too often from dangerous areas. I think that it at least warrants trying someone else there to see what happens, and I think if you can't accept that premise then you should look at why you're being so defensive of Hyman
 

The Shadow

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Feb 9, 2013
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I'll disagree with that - Hyman looks like a really good checking liner that's shoehorned into a scoring role with elite linemates. He's all effort all the time for sure, but he's woefully ineffective at finishing chances that are created for him, creating chances for his linemates and drawing any defensive interest when we have the puck to give a little more space for his linemates to work. Definite NHL'er, just don't think he's good at the role he's played in at all

He has improved and will continue to do so. Marchand wasn't a superstar when he first entered the league either. I think a lot of people will be pleasantly surprised at how much better he will be
 
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Randy Randerson

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He has improved and will continue to do so. Marchand wasn't a superstar when he first entered the league either. I think a lot of people will be pleasantly surprised at how much better he will be
that's an outlier case, Nylander might not end up being that good let alone Hyman. I hope you're right, but I don't see it

Hyman's an NHL player for sure, I'd just like to see some other things tried in the top 6, see if we can find a combo that's really overwhelming
 

Puckstuff

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I'd like to see a Hyman-Gauthier-Brown shutdown line and then set these 3 loose on the rest of the league:

Grundstrom-Matthews-Nylander
Johnsson-Tavares-Marner
Marleau-Kadri-Kapanen

-Grundstrom plays the same game as Hyman with MUCH better hands, and he was our second best forward after Johnsson in the Calder Cup playoffs.

I really like Grundstrom as well; but ideally he should play a full year in the AHL like Nylander, Johnsson, Liliegren and Kapanen
 

Puckstuff

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The issue I have with Hyman; I think Babcock is seriously overrating is ability to get pucks. He does it well; but the whole he leaves offensively almost negates it; when I think Kapanen and Brown are also great puck retrievers while twice as good offensively.
 

Battle Lin

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Dec 18, 2015
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seems like we been saying this every summer, well heres leivos chance to make the team, hes not up against tough competition so lets see how he does
 

Battle Lin

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if his skating doesnt improve he will never make it...of all the main hockey skills, stick handling, passing, skating, and shot, skating might be number 1, i mean you gotta skate good to gain edge over others

hyman, brown, and kapanen should be very important to our forward defense and PK moving forward...they can skate man, they cover ice, thats what its all about, covering the ice, with skating and motor and hustle, you need this forward forechecking defense, as well as your defensemen playing good D to win, then your skilled offensive guys can do the rest...plus kapanen, brown, and hyman have more than solid enough offense and hands for their roles

you dont need elite speculation on leivo, you need elite speed on leivo, then he be good enough to play on 1st line...same with gauthier, cause how awesome would a 6'5 240 pound body with defense look at the 4C right now, but gauthier has to up that speed more too and be able to cover the ice better just like leivo or they wont stay on team
 

DarkKnight

Professional Amateur
Jan 17, 2017
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Getting a contract means he’s at least got a shot, but I get the impression Babcock isn’t much of a fan, and that’s a hard mountain to climb
He got a decent look this year, but he tailed off and looked bad a couple games. At least he's some short term insurance at center
 

moon111

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Ennis lead an NHL team in scoring. Leivo had the 6th highest pts/60 (although to be fair in only 13 games) in `16-`17.

Deciding who makes your fourth line is sure a good first world problem to have.
 

White Shadow

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Would the difference between a 4th and 5th round pick sway your decision to trading a guy who you saw as more useful? They chose Leivo over Soshnikov

And the premise of this (latest) little anti Leivo rant of yours is that the leafs aren't interpreting Leivo as more valuable than Tyler "scrap heap" Ennis. If you want to spin my position that they have given us lots of reason to believe they see Leivo as more valuable than that guy, that's fine...Engvall, Korshkov, Brooks, etc are all also more valuable than Ennis fwiw



Haha, you're allowed to take big interpretive liberties like this, but someone else saying that the leafs literally using a protection slot on Leivo means they see some value in him is spinning it. Never change man
I'm not saying anything about Ennis' value. I am talking about adding someone, anyone to try out for that spot is an indication of their confidence in Leivo.

You really keep clinging to that protection of Leivo as if it means something..ask yourself who else of value was not protected in favour of Leivo...the answer is no one.

If I were to ask you, do you favour death by drowning or death by suffocation and you chose death by drowning would that necessarily infer that you really like death by drowning?
 

Randy Randerson

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I'm not saying anything about Ennis' value. I am talking about adding someone, anyone to try out for that spot is an indication of their confidence in Leivo.

You really keep clinging to that protection of Leivo as if it means something..ask yourself who else of value was not protected in favour of Leivo...the answer is no one.

If I were to ask you, do you favour death by drowning or death by suffocation and you chose death by drowning would that necessarily infer that you really like death by drowning?
the way this little exchange started was you quoting my post with "not more valuable, no". So yes, you specifically did say something about Ennis' value in comparison to Leivo

the (first) guy they chose Leivo over has nothing but NHL games played since the expansion draft. He's not an impact player, he is a young, cheap NHL'er with ok upside. Spin that however you'd like I guess
 
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well, this is a player who shot 6.4% in a full season on one of the most dangerous lines in hockey while getting a disproportionately large number of breakaways and HD area chances. He managed to get up to 10% this year and didn't look good doing it imo, and 40pts playing with those linemates in his 2nd year (at 25 years old, lets not ignore that he's not a normal 2nd year player, he took a long time to get to the NHL) isn't very impressive

the Big 10 argument is lacking some bigtime context - he was 22 on a team that didn't have another important player over the age of 20, playing against teams that had the same kind of age distribution. If you watch his highlights from that year, there wasn't many impressive plays, lots of hard working goals

I'm not blaming Hyman for Matthews/Nylander not producing, they have produced, I believe that Hyman doesn't help them produce. He's stone handed and shoots center-mass way too often from dangerous areas. I think that it at least warrants trying someone else there to see what happens, and I think if you can't accept that premise then you should look at why you're being so defensive of Hyman
I think Hyman playing on his weak side on LW doesn’t help his cause.

I don’t think Hyman should be on that line, I just think the notion that he’s some 4th line heart and soul guy is ridiculous. His production has increased with each subsequent year. I do agree most of his production is a result of his linemates, but Hyman on that line is not making the team worse.

I think Matthews and Nylander need a player to play fetch with. Hyman is capable in that role, but I’d much rather try Johnsson or Grundstrom (if he shows well) there.

Fact is, the Leafs are pretty weak on LW, Hyman should be playing on his strong side, but I don’t think the other options are as versatile as he is in that role.
 

Randy Randerson

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I think Hyman playing on his weak side on LW doesn’t help his cause.

I don’t think Hyman should be on that line, I just think the notion that he’s some 4th line heart and soul guy is ridiculous. His production has increased with each subsequent year. I do agree most of his production is a result of his linemates, but Hyman on that line is not making the team worse.

I think Matthews and Nylander need a player to play fetch with. Hyman is capable in that role, but I’d much rather try Johnsson or Grundstrom (if he shows well) there.

Fact is, the Leafs are pretty weak on LW, Hyman should be playing on his strong side, but I don’t think the other options are as versatile as he is in that role.
I agree with the off-wing idea, Hyman is definitely a guy who uses his body to defend the puck so having his stick to the inside probably hurts him - to me, that just adds to the "fish out of water" feeling about playing him there

I think Hyman is a 4th liner on this team, but only because this team has the luxury of a 3rd line that is better than some of the 1st lines on lottery teams. In a vacuum, I think Hyman will show to be a ~3rd line player over his career. If he can play center (I know he played there most of the way up, has the size/speed/faceoff ability so might be worth a shot) he might slot in really well as the 4th line C

We have the good fortune of a bunch of more talented wingers knocking on the NHL's door, so I think we should use that to our advantage - try a Johnsson/Grundstrom/Kapanen on that line and see if they can fill the chase role well enough that their increased talent level makes the line more effective overall. I think we're really seeing this the same
 
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