i cant say i understand the PA

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thinkwild

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Jul 29, 2003
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Exisled said:
You know what I find funny, thinkwild?

I find it funny the number of people, ("fans", apparently), who honestly EXPECT the Players to "fold", simply because it appears to be "inevitable". And to do it "for the good of the game".

That's "funny" to me.

Yes, "funny". The point is often made that the owners have the leverage, are stronger, they will win by overpowering to get what they want. Its inevitable.

Give in to the dark side Luke. What does this say of our ethics that we accept that and award them the higher ground? Ethically it seems wrong to me. Economists seldom write in support of the Cap either. You'd expect it would take quite a PR campaign to overcome that ethical and logical conundrum. At minimum, you would expect owners would be castigated for doing so, not receiving massive support. Or maybe modern ethics have just passed me by.
 

Lil' Jimmy Norton*

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Exisled said:
You know what I find funny, thinkwild?

I find it funny the number of people, ("fans", apparently), who honestly EXPECT the Players to "fold", simply because it appears to be "inevitable". And to do it "for the good of the game".

That's "funny" to me.

How 'bout this:


Dear Mr. Karmanos:

You, sir, should face the inevitable.

You are not Mike Ilitch. You will never BE Mike Ilitch.

You purchased a team which failed in it's first home. It is currently failing in it's second home.

Your team is NOT the Detroit Red Wings. They do not have the Revenue Streams to come CLOSE to the Detroit Red Wings. They do not have the FAN BASE of the Detroit Red Wings. They do not have 10 Stanley Cups to their credit, nor a long, STORIED History, and the distinction of being an Original 6 Team.

The Detroit Red Wings are bigger, stronger, more powerful, more profitable than your Team can ever HOPE to be.

You cannot compete. You are out-classed, sir. You have "lost" the battle.

Accept the inevitable. Do the honorable thing and allow your Team to fold, so that the League will no longer have to count YOUR losses against THEIR Revenues, or WORSE, be forced to drag the entire League down to YOUR level in an attempt to allow you to eke out a few more years of barely hanging on by a thread, only to have the "inevitable" finally happen anyway.

Do it "for the good of the game", Pete.

Sincerely,


Fans of the NHL



Now....

That "letter" could be sent to a NUMBER of Teams. And you could substitute a NUMBER of Teams for both the 'Canes AND the Wings in the situations brought up in that "letter". MOST here know which Teams they are. The League ITSELF knows which Teams they are.

But....

Because the OWNERS have a substantial MONETARY investment in NHL Hockey, a lot of "fans" would find that "letter" offensive and combative.

Not so, when directed towards the PLAYERS. Why? Because THEY have not "invested millions" in the League, in "hockey".

All THEY have invested is their lives. Most of them to the exclusion of everything else.

Ahhh Brotherhood Of The Union....Fold the team and 22 of our "brothers" are out of the league.. !!! :lol
 

Lil' Jimmy Norton*

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thinkwild said:
Yes, "funny". The point is often made that the owners have the leverage, are stronger, they will win by overpowering to get what they want. Its inevitable.

Give in to the dark side Luke. What does this say of our ethics that we accept that and award them the higher ground? Ethically it seems wrong to me. Economists seldom write in support of the Cap either. You'd expect it would take quite a PR campaign to overcome that ethical and logical conundrum. At minimum, you would expect owners would be castigated for doing so, not receiving massive support. Or maybe modern ethics have just passed me by.

As Tony Montana would say "Manny...Money is POWER ...!!! " Money talks and all this other bravado is the Bull**** walk. 42.5 now you see it next time you wont :lol
 

Lil' Jimmy Norton*

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Not so, when directed towards the PLAYERS. Why? Because THEY have not "invested millions" in the League, in "hockey".

All THEY have invested is their lives. Most of them to the exclusion of everything else.[/QUOTE]

Yes especially the economics class :lol
 

Exisled

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Feb 23, 2005
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thinkwild said:
Yes, "funny". The point is often made that the owners have the leverage, are stronger, they will win by overpowering to get what they want. Its inevitable.

Give in to the dark side Luke. What does this say of our ethics that we accept that and award them the higher ground? Ethically it seems wrong to me. Economists seldom write in support of the Cap either. You'd expect it would take quite a PR campaign to overcome that ethical and logical conundrum. At minimum, you would expect owners would be castigated for doing so, not receiving massive support. Or maybe modern ethics have just passed me by.


"Ethics" have little to do with it.

"Fear" is the motivating factor.

The NHL has based this entire "negotiation process", (a charitable description of the events to date, to be sure), upon FEAR ALONE.



Fear of the fans:

"The League will FOLD unless we get a Salary Cap. No more NHL Hockey, AT ALL!"

"Small Market teams will disappear without Cost Certainty. YOUR team will be HISTORY!!!"


Fear of the Players:

"This is the best deal you're gonna get ANYWHERE. And its only gonna get WORSE the longer you wait."

"The fans are on OUR side. They don't like you so much anymore. Give us what we want before they completely HATE you."

It's ridiculous.

Had Bettman and the League offered anything OTHER than a sharp stick in the eye to the Players, had they even ATTEMPTED to offer anything LESS than a crushing and humiliating defeat, had they given the Players the opportunity to hold their heads up and say "We did this for the good of the Game, for the health of the League"......

We'd be watching hockey RIGHT NOW.


Instead, what we GET is Gary Bettman, crouched like a vulture on the corpse of the NHL, crowing:

"Hear ME, Oh Hockey Gods: I am KING OF THE WORLD! I have EVERYTHING, and they have NOTHING! They WILL grovel at my feet, and EVERYONE will bear witness to it!!!"

I'm convinced that Gary has a Napolean Complex.
 

Lil' Jimmy Norton*

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Had Bettman and the League offered anything OTHER than a sharp stick in the eye to the Players, had they even ATTEMPTED to offer anything LESS than a crushing and humiliating defeat, had they given the Players the opportunity to hold their heads up and say "We did this for the good of the Game, for the health of the League


If you think 42.5 is a stick in the eye wait till they see 35....That'll feel like a 5 inch cannon blast right through their melon :lol
 
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Exisled

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Chuck Shick said:
Ahhh Brotherhood Of The Union....Fold the team and 22 of our "brothers" are out of the league.. !!! :lol

Once again......

INSTEAD.....Let's cater to the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR, shall we?

Let me see......

Restrict EVERY team in the League to the financial constraints which much be observed by the WEAKEST sisters, so that Teams which probably shouldn't even BE in existence can "survive"?

Sounds like an EXCELLENT plan. Let's do THAT!


And how 'bout THIS.....???

Yoke the entire 700+ membership of the Union with a system which will see the earning potential of the BEST Players fall, while the League MINIMUM for the WORST Players in the League INCREASES, so that the 22, (or 44......or 66), WORST Players in the NHL get to KEEP their jobs?

Brilliant? BRILLIANT!!! Let's do THAT, too!!!

That sounds like an amazingly sound business practice to me, too.


The NHL is not a CHARITY. NOR is the NHLPA.

If you can't "pull your weight", you should be CUT, rather than dragging everyone else down WITH YOU.



"For the GOOD OF THE GAME!"
 

Exisled

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Chuck Shick said:
If you think 42.5 is a stick in the eye wait till they see 35....That'll feel like a 5 inch cannon blast right through their melon :lol

And you'll laugh and laugh and LAUGH, posting little smilie faces ALL along the way, if the Players end up crawling back to the Owners with their tails between their legs to take that deal. Won't you?

You'll cheer the Owner's victory as if it were your own, because the "good guys" beat those "greedy millionaires".

And all while ponying up the money for those premium priced tickets.......

.......You know, the VASTLY OVERPRICED tickets which ARE vastly overpriced because of "supply and demand" and "the market" which these Owners so firmly believe in? (Well.....MOST of the time, anyway.)

And you'll say not a word as the Owners sit up in their boxes, raking in their added millions, looking down at you sitting in the best seat you could afford, (and too expensive at THAT, too), and giving each other the subtle elbow to the ribs, the sly wink and the knowing smile, and the:

"See. TOLD you it would work."



Geez......With fans like that.....

It's no WONDER the Players haven't "given in" for the "love of the game", or "for the fans."
 

Icey

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Jan 23, 2005
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thinkwild said:
Well, when it comes to UFA age, what is cake? I know the conventional wisdom is that owners want it higher and players lower, however, actual negotiations to date seem to disprove that thought.

And what is the cake the players want? Their rights to free agency?

The cake I was referring to was on the owners side. They can't keep FA at the age it is, lower qualifying offers, limit rookie contracts, and take away arbitration rights. There is no way in hell anyone would agree to that, and that is what the owners want. They have to give up on something and the one thing they seem unwilling to do is put FA for the NHL at where it is in the NFL, you know the system they claim works so well. They are basically holding player hostage for 12 years. Rookie cap is $850, 000 qualifiying offers are only 75% and now the player can't even go to arbitration and they have to put with it until they turn 30.

The players are willing to keep FA where it is as long as the owners give up on the qualifying offers at 75% and no arbitration. So far, the owners don't seem to be willing to do that.
 

me2

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Exisled said:
And you'll laugh and laugh and LAUGH, posting little smilie faces ALL along the way, if the Players end up crawling back to the Owners with their tails between their legs to take that deal. Won't you?

You'll cheer the Owner's victory as if it were your own, because the "good guys" beat those "greedy millionaires".

And all while ponying up the money for those premium priced tickets.......

.......You know, the VASTLY OVERPRICED tickets which ARE vastly overpriced because of "supply and demand" and "the market" which these Owners so firmly believe in? (Well.....MOST of the time, anyway.)

And you'll say not a word as the Owners sit up in their boxes, raking in their added millions, looking down at you sitting in the best seat you could afford, (and too expensive at THAT, too), and giving each other the subtle elbow to the ribs, the sly wink and the knowing smile, and the:

"See. TOLD you it would work."


Sooner the better :bow:
 

Icey

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Exisled said:
And you'll laugh and laugh and LAUGH, posting little smilie faces ALL along the way, if the Players end up crawling back to the Owners with their tails between their legs to take that deal. Won't you?

You'll cheer the Owner's victory as if it were your own, because the "good guys" beat those "greedy millionaires".

And all while ponying up the money for those premium priced tickets.......

.......You know, the VASTLY OVERPRICED tickets which ARE vastly overpriced because of "supply and demand" and "the market" which these Owners so firmly believe in? (Well.....MOST of the time, anyway.)

And you'll say not a word as the Owners sit up in their boxes, raking in their added millions, looking down at you sitting in the best seat you could afford, (and too expensive at THAT, too), and giving each other the subtle elbow to the ribs, the sly wink and the knowing smile, and the:

"See. TOLD you it would work."



Geez......With fans like that.....

It's no WONDER the Players haven't "given in" for the "love of the game", or "for the fans."

Your wrong on one point. The owners don't sit in their boxes and look down on us. They don't even show up to the games. They just collect their money and don't give a crap about the team or the fans and people who think they do are just wrong. I can't tell you how many times last season I looked down at the owners suite at a game only to see it dark.
 

Lil' Jimmy Norton*

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Exisled said:
Once again......

INSTEAD.....Let's cater to the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR, shall we?

Let me see......

Restrict EVERY team in the League to the financial constraints which much be observed by the WEAKEST sisters, so that Teams which probably shouldn't even BE in existence can "survive"?

Sounds like an EXCELLENT plan. Let's do THAT!


And how 'bout THIS.....???

Yoke the entire 700+ membership of the Union with a system which will see the earning potential of the BEST Players fall, while the League MINIMUM for the WORST Players in the League INCREASES, so that the 22, (or 44......or 66), WORST Players in the NHL get to KEEP their jobs?

Brilliant? BRILLIANT!!! Let's do THAT, too!!!

That sounds like an amazingly sound business practice to me, too.


The NHL is not a CHARITY. NOR is the NHLPA.

If you can't "pull your weight", you should be CUT, rather than dragging everyone else down WITH YOU.



"For the GOOD OF THE GAME!"

Ya that Yashin is one of your best players , how about John LeClair what 9 mil a year...they are stealing money. Now what makes you the hockey snob ?? Look down your nose at your 3rd and 4th liners ?? I see your one of these punks who thinks their **** don't stink. Hmmm 42.5 million to spread out over a roster of 22...the salary will fall in line per skill level. No the NHL is not a charity it is a professional hockey league that pays its players an average of 1.8 million F'n dollars each. So get off the PA Kool-Aid Cuz ! By the way those guys that you call dragging everyone down...are the same guys that punch the snot out of anyone that F's with your star players so be careful there ok Punchy !
 

Exisled

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Chuck Shick said:
Ya that Yashin is one of your best players , how about John LeClair what 9 mil a year...they are stealing money.

Define "stealing". Don't recall Yashin OR LeClair holding a gun to anyone's head. Nor do I recall any reports of missing checkbooks.

The Owners, (yep, that's right, folks), the OWNERS of the New York Islanders and the Philadelphia Flyers THREW that money away. Plain and simple. Just blew it RIGHT out their rears. With the help of their respective GM'S, of course.

And WHY? Because they WANTED those Players. Against all reason, despite evidence CLEARLY pointing to the facts that those Players weren't worth CLOSE to that kind of money.....they wanted them ANYWAY. Bravo to them. They got PRECISELY what they deserved.

As an Isles fan I can unequivocally state MY personal belief that Alexei Yashin is THE most over-rated, THE most over-PAID, Player in the HISTORY of the NHL. And if he NEVER plays another game in an Isles uni, it will be too soon for me.

Chuck Shick said:
Now what makes you the hockey snob ?? Look down your nose at your 3rd and 4th liners ?? I see your one of these punks who thinks their **** don't stink.

AHahahahahaha!

That's rich. You don't know me. Know NOTHING about me. Hockey snob, indeed.

One of my favorite current Players in the NHL is STEVE WEBB! My favorite ALL TIME Islander is Bobby Nystrom. How's THAT for "snobbery"?

I don't look down 3rd and 4th liners. They have a role to play, just as the "elite" Players do. How many 4th Liners are there IN the NHL? What I AM saying is that the League MIGHT be BETTER off were they to simply GET RID of the 22.....or 44.....or 66.......of the WORST 4th Liners in the League. They certainly wouldn't be any WORSE off, now would they?

Chuck Shick said:
Hmmm 42.5 million to spread out over a roster of 22...the salary will fall in line per skill level.

And once the salaries "fall in line", with the "elite" Players taking up the Lion's share of the Cap, just WHO do you think will be taking the BIGGEST HIT, Mr. I Support the Grunts of the League? Who do YOU think will be out of a job because Owner's and GM's can bring in a Minor Leaguer to fill THEIR spot, for LESS MONEY?

The Brodeur's? The Lidstrom's? The Sakic's?

Not bloody likely.

Your beloved 3rd and 4th Liners will be the FIRST to go. And QUICKLY, too.

Chuck Shick said:
No the NHL is not a charity it is a professional hockey league that pays its players an average of 1.8 million F'n dollars each.

<sigh>

There's that "$1.8M average salary" again......

Let me guess. Math isn't your "strong suit", is it?




As for the REST of your post......

Doesn't warrant a response, as far as I'm concerned, but I WILL say THIS:

By the "tone" of your post, I am not the one getting "punchy".
 

MRWRISTER

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Exisled said:
You know what I find funny, thinkwild?

I find it funny the number of people, ("fans", apparently), who honestly EXPECT the Players to "fold", simply because it appears to be "inevitable". And to do it "for the good of the game".

That's "funny" to me.

How 'bout this:


Dear Mr. Karmanos:

You, sir, should face the inevitable.

You are not Mike Ilitch. You will never BE Mike Ilitch.

You purchased a team which failed in it's first home. It is currently failing in it's second home.

Your team is NOT the Detroit Red Wings. They do not have the Revenue Streams to come CLOSE to the Detroit Red Wings. They do not have the FAN BASE of the Detroit Red Wings. They do not have 10 Stanley Cups to their credit, nor a long, STORIED History, and the distinction of being an Original 6 Team.

The Detroit Red Wings are bigger, stronger, more powerful, more profitable than your Team can ever HOPE to be.

You cannot compete. You are out-classed, sir. You have "lost" the battle.

Accept the inevitable. Do the honorable thing and allow your Team to fold, so that the League will no longer have to count YOUR losses against THEIR Revenues, or WORSE, be forced to drag the entire League down to YOUR level in an attempt to allow you to eke out a few more years of barely hanging on by a thread, only to have the "inevitable" finally happen anyway.

Do it "for the good of the game", Pete.

Sincerely,


Fans of the NHL



Now....

That "letter" could be sent to a NUMBER of Teams. And you could substitute a NUMBER of Teams for both the 'Canes AND the Wings in the situations brought up in that "letter". MOST here know which Teams they are. The League ITSELF knows which Teams they are.

But....

Because the OWNERS have a substantial MONETARY investment in NHL Hockey, a lot of "fans" would find that "letter" offensive and combative.

Not so, when directed towards the PLAYERS. Why? Because THEY have not "invested millions" in the League, in "hockey".

All THEY have invested is their lives. Most of them to the exclusion of everything else.

How fans of the pre 2004 Boston Red Sox would have agreed. And remember a time when Wayne Gretzky called New Jersey a Mickey Mouse Operation.
 

Exisled

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MRWRISTER said:
How fans of the pre 2004 Boston Red Sox would have agreed. And remember a time when Wayne Gretzky called New Jersey a Mickey Mouse Operation.

Please tell me you're joking.

Despite the BoSox until recent futility in breaking the Curse, they have NEVER had any difficulty in drawing fans to the ballpark. They have a very loyal fan-base. It would be an understatement of comic proportions to say that the same cannot be said about the Carolina Hurricanes.

As for the Devils....

Mickey Mouse they might have been at the time when Gretzky dubbed them as such.

But there is ONE difference between the Dev's and the 'Canes that CANNOT be overlooked.

The New Jersey Devils, after SUCKING for the first 5 years in Jersey, decided to make a COMMITMENT to EXCELLENCE.

They hired Lou in '87. They made the Play-Offs in his first year as Pres./GM. They followed that up by falling ONE GAME SHORT of the Stanley Cup Finals in his second year. They missed the Play Offs in his third year, but the standard had been set.

They scouted relentlessly. They drafted expceptionally well. They made SMART business decisions, and even SMARTER "hockey" decisions. They hit the jackpot when they were "given" Scott Stevens.

The are three time Stanley Cup Champions. They are four time Stanley Cup Finalists. They are five time Division Champs.

Their Roster currently consists of a Calder Trophy and two time Vezina Trophy Winner, a Selke Trophy Winner, a Norris Trophy Winner, and a Conn Smythe Trophy Winner.

Again.....the Devils made a Commitment to excellence. A Commitment to Winning. They achieved BOTH.

All Peter Karmanos cares about is his bottom line.
 

Steve L*

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DR said:
fine, but as long as the NHL insists on an entry draft, QO's, RFA and other restriction of movement by the players, they will have to negotiate for those rights.

dr
They dont in other sports, they are applied unilaterally and contracts are applied worldwide so players cannot move until a fee is payed or their contract ends.
 

Lil' Jimmy Norton*

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Exisled said:
One of my favorite current Players in the NHL is STEVE WEBB! My favorite ALL TIME Islander is Bobby Nystrom. How's THAT for "snobbery"?

I don't look down 3rd and 4th liners. They have a role to play, just as the "elite" Players do. How many 4th Liners are there IN the NHL? What I AM saying is that the League MIGHT be BETTER off were they to simply GET RID of the 22.....or 44.....or 66.......of the WORST 4th Liners in the League. They certainly wouldn't be any WORSE off, now would they?



And once the salaries "fall in line", with the "elite" Players taking up the Lion's share of the Cap, just WHO do you think will be taking the BIGGEST HIT, Mr. I Support the Grunts of the League? Who do YOU think will be out of a job because Owner's and GM's can bring in a Minor Leaguer to fill THEIR spot, for LESS MONEY?

The Brodeur's? The Lidstrom's? The Sakic's?

Not bloody likely.

Your beloved 3rd and 4th Liners will be the FIRST to go. And QUICKLY, too.



<sigh>

There's that "$1.8M average salary" again......

Let me guess. Math isn't your "strong suit", is it?




As for the REST of your post......

Doesn't warrant a response, as far as I'm concerned, but I WILL say THIS:

By the "tone" of your post, I am not the one getting "punchy".

You may want to check your math and also Steve Webb is not in the NHL anymore, he actually sat in the press box last year for the Pens until they cut him and then the Isles picked him up for a six pack of Blatz beer and a case of tape then they told him to hit the road cause all that hammerhead could do is run and headhunt players...he was like a plumber who shows up on the job without his toolkit. He'd be lucky to crack the lineup on my beer league team.

I guess based on your genius, when the NHL does return their only going to have 2 lines ? no more 3rd and 4th liners ..??? hmmmm news to all of us, thanks for the heads up :lol
 
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Beukeboom Fan

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Russian Fan said:
I just don't see why they should ''suck it up'' to owners who are not willing to budge on anything. Fans perceive this as a true statement on how bad the economics are & I think it's all related to the P.R. the owners/Bettman/Daly did so far.

They spend too much time to give the fans what they want to hear instead of really getting it done.

Everyone blame Goodenow here but what he did so far was brilliant if you ask me. He did everything in order the NHL can't go into the impasse stuff by removing the ''philosophical differences'' slash/CAP vs NO CAP.

The owners won't get everything , at least that's not what I think as of today.

P.S to you personally DR, I understand that you can be tired to be in the minority here, it's exhausting.

You mean all that PR like asking the union if they want to examine the books to REALLY determine what sort of financial shape the league is in?

Or do you mean the PR when Bettman apologize's to the fans for not being able to get this done, when the PA just slings mud. (BTW, I'm not saying the owners don't sling their share of mud.)

To impasse or not isn't based on Cap/No Cap. The players "version" of the cap wasn't anywhere remotely close to what the owner says the league needs to survive. And I expect if it goes down that path, the league can point that out to the NLRB.

How brilliant do you have to be to flush $1B down the toilet for your constituants? When the average career is probably 5 or 6 years, how brilliant are you to flush 20% of your LIFETIME (in most cases) earning potentail down the toilet.
 

kdb209

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Steve L said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DR
fine, but as long as the NHL insists on an entry draft, QO's, RFA and other restriction of movement by the players, they will have to negotiate for those rights.

dr

They dont in other sports, they are applied unilaterally and contracts are applied worldwide so players cannot move until a fee is payed or their contract ends.

No they most certainly are not applied unilaterally. The draft and any other restraint on labor can only exist in the context of a negotiated CBA. Barring a CBA, they are blatant anti trust violations.

If the PA ever did vote to decertify, you can kiss the draft, RFAs, QOs, and any other restraints goodbye. Every player (including all draft eligable players) would be a UFA. Of course there would be no protection from the union either - no minimum salaries, no guaranteed contracts. There would be no standard contracts, everything would be negotiated individually between a player and a team.
 

Exisled

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Feb 23, 2005
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Chuck Shick said:
You may want to check your math

Nope. My math is fine, thank you.

Yours, on the other hand, is a little off.

From the NHL's very own site:

NHL Teams paid 796 Players during the '03-'04 Season. (Source: NHL.com)

Total Player SALARIES: 1,318,500,000 (Source: HockeyZonePlus)

$1,318,500.000 / 796 Players = $1,656,407.04

That's not $1.8M, it's $1.66M. A pittance of a difference, I know, and hardly worth mentioning, but stick with me on this one.....

Now, taking into account that of the 796 Players listed, 540 of them make LESS than $1.5M, while another 58 make between $1.5M and $1.99M, that leaves a WHOPPING 198 NHL Players who made more than $2M last season. (Again, from the NHL's own site). The "$1.8M Average Salary" is DISINGENUOUS, at best.

Doesn't take a genius to figure out the OBVIOUS, now DOES it?

When SIXTY EIGHT PERCENT of the work force is making LESS than what you CLAIM is the "Average Salary", then how can it TRULY be the "Average".

Again.....the claim is disingenuous.


I've discussed this at length on another Message Board. I'll use the same analogy here:


Say you take a look at a small business. They have 5 Employees. Their annual Payroll is $500,000.

That sounds GREAT, right? The "Average Salary" of the 5 Employees of that Company is $100,000 per year. Looks like those five guys are doing okay, doesn't it?

Until you take a closer look.

Then you see that the "Director of Marketing" is pulling down an Annual Salary of $400,000.

The four telemarketers who work for him are making $25,000 each.

How REAL is that "$100,000 Average Salary" to the four guys who are taking home $25K? What benefit is that "$100,000 Average Salary" to them?

Kinda changes the perspective, doesn't it?

The Yashin's, Jagr's, Pronger's, Lidstrom's, Joseph's, et al, are driving this alleged "Average Salary" UP.

The TRUTH is that the "median" salary in the NHL is roughly $800 - $900K.

That's a FAR cry from Bettman's "$1.8M Average Salary". Roughly HALF.

Yep. MY math is JUST fine.

Chuck Shick said:
and also Steve Webb is not in the NHL anymore, he actually sat in the press box last year for the Pens until they cut him and then the Isles picked him up for a six pack of Blatz beer and a case of tape then they told him to hit the road cause all that hammerhead could do is run and headhunt players...he was like a plumber who shows up on the job without his toolkit. He'd be lucky to crack the lineup on my beer league team.

How many of the guys in your "beer league" have ever had the honor of donning an NHL Jersey, and had 16,000+ fans chanting THEIR names every time they skated out on the ice?

(I'll wait here while you compile that undoubtedly extensive list.)

Bash Webb all you like, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that he's accomplished a lot more with the VERY limited Hockey skill-set he's been given than you, or any of your "beer league" buddies have. No?

And as for Webb not being in the NHL anymore.....he finished the Season on an NHL Roster, and played two games in the Play Offs. Considering his limited ability, he's not expected to see MUCH ice time.

And guess what....

Pavol Demitra isn't "in" the NHL anymore, either. Neither is Paul Kariya.

Wonder if THOSE guys could "crack the line-up" on your "beer league team".

Chuck Shick said:
I guess based on your genius, when the NHL does return their only going to have 2 lines ? no more 3rd and 4th liners ..??? hmmmm news to all of us, thanks for the heads up :lol

I REFUSE to believe that ANYONE is THAT dunder-headed. Please tell me you're not serious.

Where did Kariya and Selanne play in Colorado last year?

Second Line.

Where did Kariya play in Anaheim? FIRST Line. Why? Because there wasn't anyone BETTER than him to play on the Ducks First Line.

The Avs have more talented Players than Anaheim. Paul was king in Anahiem, but has to take a back seat to Sakic and Forsberg in Denver.

Where did Brett Hull play in Detroit?

THIRD LINE, wasn't it?

Luc Robitaille? FOURTH LINE.

And why was THAT? Because Detroit was STACKED with Offense.

Where would those two play on a team like the Pens? The Predators? The Coyotes?

You get rid of the 22.....or 44......or 66.....or 88 WORST Fourth Liners in the NHL by contracting Teams, and who takes their spots on the SURVIVING Teams?

Why......

Guys who USED TO BE on the THIRD LINES, of course!!!

There are fewer jobs. And ALL of this "talent" floating around looking for a "spot".

Former First Liners, (the GOOD ones), from the contracted Teams become Second Liners on the SURVIVING Teams. Pushing former Second Liners on the surviving Teams down to the Third Line. Which pushes former Third Liners on the surviving Teams down to the Fourth Line.

I'm not talking about only having "2 lines", or "no more 3rd and 4th liners".

I'm talking about MORE TALENT, BETTER PLAYERS, on the "3rd and 4th lines".

Get it?



And by the way.....you're welcome. Always glad to give someone a "heads up" when I can.
 

mudcrutch79

Registered User
Jul 5, 2003
3,903
0
The Big Smoke
www.mc79hockey.com
Exisled said:
When SIXTY EIGHT PERCENT of the work force is making LESS than what you CLAIM is the "Average Salary", then how can it TRULY be the "Average".

Because average is a defined mathematical term meaning "a number that typifies a set of numbers of which it is a function"?

You can argue that it's disingenuous of Bettman to use it-and it is, but that is the average.
 

me2

Go ahead foot
Jun 28, 2002
37,903
5,595
Make my day.
Exisled said:
Nope. My math is fine, thank you.

Yours, on the other hand, is a little off.

From the NHL's very own site:

NHL Teams paid 796 Players during the '03-'04 Season. (Source: NHL.com)

Total Player SALARIES: 1,318,500,000 (Source: HockeyZonePlus)

$1,318,500.000 / 796 Players = $1,656,407.04

That's not $1.8M, it's $1.66M. A pittance of a difference, I know, and hardly worth mentioning, but stick with me on this one.....

You are counting players that only played a few games as if they had played a full year. ie

9 players earning 1.8m/y, 100% of the games.
10 players earning 1.8m/y, but only 10% of the games in NHL and 90% in minors.

$18m total salary / 19 players. $947K per player. OMG the players are being robbed $853K each! :rolleyes:


Now, taking into account that of the 796 Players listed, 540 of them make LESS than $1.5M, while another 58 make between $1.5M and $1.99M, that leaves a WHOPPING 198 NHL Players who made more than $2M last season. (Again, from the NHL's own site). The "$1.8M Average Salary" is DISINGENUOUS, at best.

How many played full seasons at NHL level, how many were part time fill ins?

Doesn't take a genius to figure out the OBVIOUS, now DOES it?

Ummmm no.....


When SIXTY EIGHT PERCENT of the work force is making LESS than what you CLAIM is the "Average Salary", then how can it TRULY be the "Average".

Mean vs median. When did the NHL claim half the players were making more than $1.8m?


Again.....the claim is disingenuous.

Only to those incapable of working out that average usually means arithmetic mean not median. :dunno:

Disingenuous would be dividing Total payroll paid by total players to skew the numbers rather than using FTEs...... :dunce:

The TRUTH is that the "median" salary in the NHL is roughly $800 - $900K.

That's a FAR cry from Bettman's "$1.8M Average Salary". Roughly HALF.

Yes and its Bettman that tried to protect the guys on $800K but offering them a lower rollback %. Goodenow wanted them hit harder than Bettman.



You get rid of the 22.....or 44......or 66.....or 88 WORST Fourth Liners in the NHL by contracting Teams, and who takes their spots on the SURVIVING Teams?

Former First Liners, (the GOOD ones), from the contracted Teams become Second Liners on the SURVIVING Teams. Pushing former Second Liners on the surviving Teams down to the Third Line. Which pushes former Third Liners on the surviving Teams down to the Fourth Line.

1st liners take a pay cut you are now a 2rd liners.
2nd liners take a pay cut you are now 3rd liners
3rd liners take a pay cut you are now 4rd liners
4th liners take a pay cut you are now AHL scrubs

Everbody get a paycut since more talent is crammed onto teams. :handclap:
 
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Lil' Jimmy Norton*

Registered User
Jan 31, 2005
1,056
0
Pittsburgh, PA
How many of the guys in your "beer league" have ever had the honor of donning an NHL Jersey, and had 16,000+ fans chanting THEIR names every time they skated out on the ice?

(I'll wait here while you compile that undoubtedly extensive list.)

Bash Webb all you like, but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that he's accomplished a lot more with the VERY limited Hockey skill-set he's been given than you, or any of your "beer league" buddies have. No?

Maybe you've heard of someone by the name of Joe Mullen, 17 years in the NHL... Hall of Famer, 3 stanley cups, 1 with Calgary, 2 with Pittsburgh. 502 Goals... Have you heard of him ??, Steve Webb couldn't carry his bag into the rink..He plays in our beer league. How about Dave Hannan..?? 3 cups.. 2 with Edmonton and 1 with Colorado Have you heard of him ....??? He also plays in our beer league !! Not only have they had 16000 fans cheering them they've skated the Stanley Cup around the ice a total of 6 times combined. The closest Steve Webb is ever going to get to the cup is if he drives up to Toronto and visits the Hockey Hall of Fame and someone takes his picture while he stands beside it !!!! :lol

As far as your mathematics go Me2 took you out to the woodshed with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch...ouch thats going to leave a mark :lol
 
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Steve L*

Registered User
Jan 13, 2003
11,548
0
Southampton, England
Visit site
kdb209 said:
No they most certainly are not applied unilaterally. The draft and any other restraint on labor can only exist in the context of a negotiated CBA. Barring a CBA, they are blatant anti trust violations.

If the PA ever did vote to decertify, you can kiss the draft, RFAs, QOs, and any other restraints goodbye. Every player (including all draft eligable players) would be a UFA. Of course there would be no protection from the union either - no minimum salaries, no guaranteed contracts. There would be no standard contracts, everything would be negotiated individually between a player and a team.
Im talking about non North American sports.
 

AM

Registered User
Nov 22, 2004
8,463
2,512
Edmonton
Average and Median

mudcrutch79 said:
Because average is a defined mathematical term meaning "a number that typifies a set of numbers of which it is a function"?

You can argue that it's disingenuous of Bettman to use it-and it is, but that is the average.

Which is more accurate?

Well, when it comes to money and you're paying it, the average and the number of datum is all you care about.
 
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