Proposal: I Came to Trade Gardiner Not to Bury Him

[Matthews34]

After bozak, jvr, komarov, gardiner hopefully gone Kadri is the only guy remaining from that Game 7 and Burke era (Rielly excused)

And I don't mind keeping Kadri

Rielly wasn't on that team yet. He was sent back to Junior.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

Only took a couple days for the Gardiner supporters to pop their heads up lol. It’s not just one game it’s every game. Guy is a zero sum player. Needs to go ASAP.

 

[Beleafer4]

Few issues

1 - I heard the Ferraro comment and its interesting, but they also faced the same pressure in Game 6 and played their best period of the series. Do or die, same D, same G.

2 - Jake's also played in a few elimination games and has always been a bright spot. This was substantially worse than any other playoff game he has played.

3 - Jake's at his worst WITH time because he has the chance to overthink. When pressured he relies on his skating, which allows him to skate himself out of trouble. When teams play passive and cut off his options is when he struggles.

This is on point.

Contrary to popular belief, gardiners biggest problem is that he's in his head/ over thinks.

That was what was magnified in G7.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Gardiner reminds me a lot of McCabe in the sense that there is so much volatility in his game. He can look like an all star or a scrub on any given night.

I'm honestly on the fence regarding his future. He was great in the playoffs last year, and he had a fantastic regular season for the most part, so it's very difficult to gauge his value to the team moving forward.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Only took a couple days for the Gardiner supporters to pop their heads up lol. It’s not just one game it’s every game. Guy is a zero sum player. Needs to go ASAP.

The guy plays among the most even strength minutes in the league, puts up 50 points, is on the ice for relatively few goals against per minute, does well in most measurable areas of the game, such as breakouts and puck carrying. But yeah, he is awful. Every game. Only reason for why he can put up all these numbers and isn't leaking goals against is obviously that the opposition takes pity on him, and he has been carried by defensive giants such as Polak, Carrick and Franson. Obviously.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Gardiner reminds me a lot of McCabe in the sense that there is so much volatility in his game. He can look like an all star or a scrub on any given night.

I'm honestly on the fence regarding his future. He was great in the playoffs last year, and he had a fantastic regular season for the most part, so it's very difficult to gauge his value to the team moving forward.

I'm on the fence too, but the more I think about it, the more I think maybe they should re-sign him (if the numbers line up)
It's too hard to find d-men these days. hainsey will be gone after next year, we're not sure how Zaitsev is going to pan out, Borgman may or may not stick, same with Rosen etc

 

[francis246]

Only took a couple days for the Gardiner supporters to pop their heads up lol. It’s not just one game it’s every game. Guy is a zero sum player. Needs to go ASAP.

This theory of zero sum is bullshit and it's been proven over and over and over again that just because you don't like a players game doesn't mean he is not effective. Gardiner doesn't pass the eye test sure, but his possession numbers and raw stats speak for itself. He is a good defenseman. He isn't horrible. Decision making is difficult for him but his overall game is not that bad. It may not be what this team needs to win a championships, but he himself is a good defenseman that can help many teams.

How many times are we gonna say this player isn't a championship player and they go to other teams and win. Maybe the problem isn't the players but rather the market itself.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

The guy plays among the most even strength minutes in the league, puts up 50 points, is on the ice for relatively few goals against per minute, does well in most measurable areas of the game, such as breakouts and puck carrying. But yeah, he is awful. Every game. Only reason for why he can put up all these numbers and isn't leaking goals against is obviously that the opposition takes pity on him, and he has been carried by defensive giants such as Polak, Carrick and Franson. Obviously.

Rose coloured glasses you’re sporting. He cost us not one but two game 7s there chum. Eye test wins out over analytics every time with your buddy Gardiner.

 

[BlueBaron]

The guy plays among the most even strength minutes in the league, puts up 50 points, is on the ice for relatively few goals against per minute, does well in most measurable areas of the game, such as breakouts and puck carrying. But yeah, he is awful. Every game. Only reason for why he can put up all these numbers and isn't leaking goals against is obviously that the opposition takes pity on him, and he has been carried by defensive giants such as Polak, Carrick and Franson. Obviously.

I think you are overstating things a bit, Jake has possession super powers, no doubt about that. He also makes questionable defensive decisions regularly enough for it to be very noticeable. No one (sane) questions his offensive talents which more than balance out his short coming.

Few players are perfect. You can be very good at several things and still have flaws. The question becomes is he the best long term solution at the #2 LHD spot or could his asset value and cap money be used elsewhere to make our team better.

It might be to soon to expect Dermott to step up and be in the top 4 but if management think he is ready that frees up an asset that can be used to fix the RHD problems.

I think most of us agree what we need more than anything is a Tanev type without the injury baggage to play on the top pair and in the final moments of the game. The problem is without knowing who is available and what our options are beyond free agency it's hard to say for sure if sacrificing Gardiner is the best move or not.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

This theory of zero sum is bull**** and it's been proven over and over and over again that just because you don't like a players game doesn't mean he is not effective. Gardiner doesn't pass the eye test sure, but his possession numbers and raw stats speak for itself. He is a good defenseman. He isn't horrible. Decision making is difficult for him but his overall game is not that bad. It may not be what this team needs to win a championships, but he himself is a good defenseman that can help many teams.

How many times are we gonna say this player isn't a championship player and they go to other teams and win. Maybe the problem isn't the players but rather the market itself.

Yea it’s the leafs market that causes him to turn the puck over time and time again, got it.

 

[francis246]

Rose coloured glasses you’re sporting. He cost us not one but two game 7s there chum. Eye test wins out over analytics every time with your buddy Gardiner.

Gardiner didn't cost us anything in 2013. He was our best defenseman... that in itself was the issue. Jake had to be the best defenseman that year. He has not had a reasonable d-partner ever and yet he still produces, makes good breakouts and has the best possession numbers.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

Gardiner didn't cost us anything in 2013. He was our best defenseman... that in itself was the issue. Jake had to be the best defenseman that year. He has not had a reasonable d-partner ever and yet he still produces, makes good breakouts and has the best possession numbers.

Might want to go back and review the tape of the OT winning goal in 2013. And it’s totally his partners fault when he throws pizzas up the middle over and over and over again.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Rose coloured glasses you’re sporting. He cost us not one but two game 7s there chum. Eye test wins out over analytics every time with your buddy Gardiner.

I'm speaking about facts. They are impervious to the color of ones glasses.

Yeah, he's had bad games. You claimed he is always bad, and is bad every game. That's factually wrong.

I think you are overstating things a bit, Jake has possession super powers, no doubt about that. He also makes questionable defensive decisions regularly enough for it to be very noticeable. No one (sane) questions his offensive talents which more than balance out his short coming.

Few players are perfect. You can be very good at several things and still have flaws. The question becomes is he the best long term solution at the #2 LHD spot or could his asset value and cap money be used elsewhere to make our team better.

It might be to soon to expect Dermott to step up and be in the top 4 but if management think he is ready that frees up an asset that can be used to fix the RHD problems.

I think most of us agree what we need more than anything is a Tanev type without the injury baggage to play on the top pair and in the final moments of the game. The problem is without knowing who is available and what our options are beyond free agency it's hard to say for sure if sacrificing Gardiner is the best move or not.

I don't know what I'm overstating. I'm stating what he has done, what he has achieved and in which circumstances. Everything but the sarcasm at the end is objective truth.

 

[Gallagbi]

Yea it’s the leafs market that causes him to turn the puck over time and time again, got it.

It takes a very "special" fan to blame him for 2013 when he was arguably the best D on the ice for either team.

 

[francis246]

Yea it’s the leafs market that causes him to turn the puck over time and time again, got it.

People said the same thing about kessel, he's a defensive liability blah blah blah blah. It has a lot to do with the expectations. For what Gardiner is he is good. He is a puck moving dman, he is going to have a lot of turn overs.

If dermott is supposed to be similar to Gardiner than you better get ready to have this conversation of trading dermott too. All high end PMD's will burn you a lot. But that's the risk that is involved with the reward. Liljegren and Dermott both project to be puck moving defenders they will make a lot of turn overs in the future so I hope we are ready to have that conversation about trading them in the future as well

 

[BlueBaron]

I'm speaking about facts. They are impervious to the color of ones glasses.

Yeah, he's had bad games. You claimed he is always bad, and is bad every game. That's factually wrong.


I don't know what I'm overstating. I'm stating what he has done, what he has achieved and in which circumstances. Everything but the sarcasm at the end is objective truth.

I probably didn't phrase that properly. What I meant to say is that thinking someone is a bad fit for us is not the same as saying they are garbage.

 

[francis246]

Might want to go back and review the tape of the OT winning goal in 2013. And it’s totally his partners fault when he throws pizzas up the middle over and over and over again.

The person I blame the most is matt frattin for missing an open net that would have iced the game.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

It takes a very "special" fan to blame him for 2013 when he was arguably the best D on the ice for either team.

Go review the the OT goal again there pal. All the good he did that series was erased with one play. Zero Sum player.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

The person I blame the most is matt frattin for missing an open net that would have iced the game.

That’s what we call a bait and switch.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I probably didn't phrase that properly. What I meant to say is that thinking someone is a bad fit for us is not the same as saying they are garbage.

For sure. And like I've said before, we definitely need to raise the question of whether the average Gardiner game being good weighs up for him sometimes sinking us. I mean, Rielly has awful games too. But with Gardiner, they can come more unforced.

 

[Gallagbi]

Go review the the OT goal again there pal. All the good he did that series was erased with one play. Zero Sum player.

You mean the great outlet to Franson who makes a bad dump so they can't change or him doing a fantastic job tying up his man and winning the puck while Reimer scrambled around his crease?

I know exactly what happened, Gardiner is tied up with his man after a few good plays on the sequence. As he's tied up, he moves the puck out of the crease to an open Bruin who scores. Franson is late to the net and there's clearly a miscommunication between them. We were on the ropes the majority of that OT and obviously late in the game. I do wonder if more Gardiner in those final two minutes means a Leafs win. Gunnar wasn't great there

 

[francis246]

That’s what we call a bait and switch.

Or it's called a fact... they scored right after that missed chance.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

Or it's called a fact... they scored right after that missed chance.

Matt frattin has nothing to do with this conversation so why are you bringing him up?

 

[Community]

Im not against moving Gardiner for a safer defender, especially given how good our offense is. However, your opening remarks on Gardiner's game seven REALLY lead me to believe you are not thinking as rationally as you say you are.

If we do move Gardiner it will be as a 1 for 1 or a package for a better defender. Moving him for a pick (unless it crazily involves adding for Dahlin) doesnt make sense.

I dont think Nashville would entertain it, but a guy like Ryan Ellis would be a nice add.

To reiterate, I am fine with getting safer guys to play in our D zone, but they NEED to be good skaters still.

 

[HerculePoirot]

I watched the series. I'm a hockey fan in general, but man I was raging at Gardiner, I get emotional.

Now that I've calmed down, I think that in order to keep Gardiner, you have to partner him with a defense-first partner, one that is able to cover for him. So at the end of the day Leafs need an improvement in D (everyone knows this).

But it's a salary cap world. Ideally JD would get PP-time and more O-zone starts, although he is good at moving the puck out of the D-zone.

I guess this is just stating the obvious. In an ideal world partner him with a D-first, mobile and responsible partner.