Proposal: I Came to Trade Gardiner Not to Bury Him

[Gallagbi]

Well I'll be damned.

Justin Faulk, then? Booming shot on the PP. Something we don't have.

Think Faulk is locked to Carolina or will require an overpayment.

I do wonder how much guys like Demers (RH), Dekeyser (LH), Petry (RH), Scandella (LH) could help us in the top 4. None are helping the PP, but with Rielly, Dermott and Zaitsev that shouldn't be a big issue.

If I had more faith in Zaitsev being a legit top 4, I'd consider Franson as a reclamation 7th D type player. He had size, could play physical and a bomb of a shot.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I heard an interesting take this morning. Let's say we move Jake+ for Ryan Ellis. Jake plays on Nashville's second pair with Josi and Ellis plays with Z. Who comes out as the better dman ?

McAvoy is a really good dman but he has Chara helping him. How would Jake look playing with Chara ?

that makes sense too.
which is why I feel we need to do a big revamp of the defense unit as a whole imo.

 

[BlueBaron]

We don't have the cap space to pay doughty 10 million. Because that's what it's going to take. If you haven't learned from the stamkos situation then I don't know what to tell you. These players are using the thought of coming to Toronto as leverage.

No we cannot afford the risk. Borgman is not better than Gardiner and I'm sorry to burst your bubble but neither is Dermott. We don't even know if Dermott is ready or will be anything like Gardiner (not that he has to be). Having offense from your blue line is important: so no we will not survive the loss. Some of you think that this is NHL 18 where players magically progress overnight.

If you think trading Gardiner and then not even replacing him will make our dcore better then, idk you're mistaken

If you assume Stamkos means no one will ever sign with us I don't know what to tell you that won't be deleted by Mods. Actually I can probably get away with saying that suggestion is foolish and built on negativity. When are people going to grasp their psychic predictions have no value in a debate? Only little kids think this is any kind of argument and eventually the out grow it.

We could actually afford a 10 million D-man if he is replacing Gardiner.

I never said they were better than Gardiner, I'm sorry to burst your bubble but you don't seem to make many rational statements in your post.

Generally speaking you are not going to have many meaningful dialogues if you invent things people say and then argue against it. I have to wonder how that has worked for you in real life?

 

[francis246]

How soon do you trade Gardiner then tho? How soon do we project Dermott playing in the top 4 because it will be his third year in the first year of Jake's extension? Will Jake want to resign with the Leafs? I think its extraordinarily likely he will see what is out there on July 1st especially with his spot in the top 4 threatened and with decent odds we have acquired a RHD yet who will likely challenge his relevance on the powerplay. I don't think its going to be a fit for team or player as if its a bidding war there will be other teams willing to cough up more who don't have offensive options on the back end. I really think I laid out a very clear and reasonable course of action addressing concerns with Gardiner's entire situation and reasonable options for us to take that in no way should be classified as "losing my mind"...I understand he is a player who is very good as what he is.

I think jake wants to be here, he's in a good situation. I think management also likes him and I think he'll be signed. I see dermott as a top 4 guy playing on the Rightside. He's looked good on both sides but in an NHL where you need to be mobile as a dman I can't see the leafs moving on from Gardiner unless they got a can't turn down offer. Otherwise you sign him. He's easily a top 10 second pairing dman

 

[BlueBaron]

But Carlson IS a clear top pairing D man who can be had as early as this summer for nothing but capspace. And even then most estimates have him earning about 7.5-8 million which is a lot more reasonable than some other options. I don’t think the Leafs can ignore that.

He's an option, and there is no doubt he would make us better. I won't cry if we get him, just saying he's not the "perfect" guy.

Ultimately you have to work with what is available so we'll see what management does.

 

[francis246]

If you assume Stamkos means no one will ever sign with us I don't know what to tell you that won't be deleted by Mods. Actually I can probably get away with saying that suggestion is foolish and built on negativity. When are people going to grasp their psychic predictions have no value in a debate? Only little kids think this is any kind of argument and eventually the out grow it.

We could actually afford a 10 million D-man if he is replacing Gardiner.

I never said they were better than Gardiner, I'm sorry to burst your bubble but you don't seem to make many rational statements in your post.

Generally speaking you are not going to have many meaningful dialogues if you invent things people say and then argue against it. I have to wonder how that has worked for you in real life?

The guy already said he doesn't want to play here.

And I don't think we'll have the cap space because I believe there is a good chance we could potentially get tavares (I do have a reliable source on that) the person told me it isn't a guarantee but he is ACTUALLY considering it heavily.

 

[Gallagbi]

that makes sense too.
which is why I feel we need to do a big revamp of the defense unit as a whole imo.

I think we're looking at 1 top pair at the least and likely another top 4 D.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I think we're looking at 1 top pair at the least and likely another top 4 D.

at least.
THEN (because i've always said it's not just the back end)
we can address the defensive forwards.

 

[LeafGrief]

If we're moving out Gardiner, we are going to desperately need to add another puck-moving defenseman. Rielly is a fantastic skater and can probably handle increased minutes, but he simply cannot pass the puck the way that Jake can. Remember in the midseason when Gardiner went on that ridiculous point streak and was feeding Nylander a breakaway every 30 minutes? That's a talent that it would really hurt to lose. Dermott has some good abilities there and I am certainly eager to find him minutes to develop, but we also don't want to throw another kid to the wolves. Our entire right side is mediocre to outright bad at outlet passes, so we're really going to need to be cautious there. I'm intrigued by those top10 picks from the Islanders and Oilers, but I'm also not willing to make the Leafs a worse team to pick up a prospect who's a few years away without a suitable replacement. Even if we did swing Gards to Edmonton for the 9th, we'd need to be on the phone immediately looking for a RHD who can make an outlet pass.

 

[Daisy Jane]

If you assume Stamkos means no one will ever sign with us I don't know what to tell you that won't be deleted by Mods. Actually I can probably get away with saying that suggestion is foolish and built on negativity. When are people going to grasp their psychic predictions have no value in a debate? Only little kids think this is any kind of argument and eventually the out grow it.

We could actually afford a 10 million D-man if he is replacing Gardiner.

I never said they were better than Gardiner, I'm sorry to burst your bubble but you don't seem to make many rational statements in your post.

Generally speaking you are not going to have many meaningful dialogues if you invent things people say and then argue against it. I have to wonder how that has worked for you in real life?

Doughty said he liked being invisible.
that ain't happening here. everyone does it. use the Toronto bone, drive up price, don't sign.

 

[Duke Silver]

We don't have the cap space to pay doughty 10 million. Because that's what it's going to take. If you haven't learned from the stamkos situation then I don't know what to tell you. These players are using the thought of coming to Toronto as leverage.

No we cannot afford the risk. Borgman is not better than Gardiner and I'm sorry to burst your bubble but neither is Dermott. We don't even know if Dermott is ready or will be anything like Gardiner (not that he has to be). Having offense from your blue line is important: so no we will not survive the loss. Some of you think that this is NHL 18 where players magically progress overnight.

If you think trading Gardiner and then not even replacing him will make our dcore better then, idk you're mistaken

He's suggesting taking a different approach to the construction of our D. One that subtracts a bit of offense for more dependability.

Personally, I'd take a 35-point dman who makes the right decision 90% of the time over a 50-point dman who can only do that half the time.

 

[BlueBaron]

Doughty said he liked being invisible.
that ain't happening here. everyone does it. use the Toronto bone, drive up price, don't sign.

As I said I am not banking on it.

 

[francis246]

If you assume Stamkos means no one will ever sign with us I don't know what to tell you that won't be deleted by Mods. Actually I can probably get away with saying that suggestion is foolish and built on negativity. When are people going to grasp their psychic predictions have no value in a debate? Only little kids think this is any kind of argument and eventually the out grow it.

We could actually afford a 10 million D-man if he is replacing Gardiner.

I never said they were better than Gardiner, I'm sorry to burst your bubble but you don't seem to make many rational statements in your post.

Generally speaking you are not going to have many meaningful dialogues if you invent things people say and then argue against it. I have to wonder how that has worked for you in real life?

Also you're telling me I'm making stuff up that you said when you're doing the same to me. I'm speaking directly about Doughty. I didn't say that no one will sign here. I said that superstars have and continue to use signing in toronto as leverage to get big deals from their teams

 

[Daisy Jane]

Think Faulk is locked to Carolina or will require an overpayment.

I do wonder how much guys like Demers (RH), Dekeyser (LH), Petry (RH), Scandella (LH) could help us in the top 4. None are helping the PP, but with Rielly, Dermott and Zaitsev that shouldn't be a big issue.

If I had more faith in Zaitsev being a legit top 4, I'd consider Franson as a reclamation 7th D type player. He had size, could play physical and a bomb of a shot.

I wanted Franny, but apparently. he's realllllllly not good now. like really bad.
Demers would hurt because Florida was giving him away.

IMO. how i'd look at it is either pay the price for a Pesce or something
there has to be another ... crap his name escaped me the defenseman Snow got from boston a few years ago situation

 

[Jozay]

if you could trade gardiner for another top 4 that fits more into the mold of a dman we need, then sure. But who's trading that type of dman?

I think thats a hard deal to find.

 

[BlueBaron]

The guy already said he doesn't want to play here.

And I don't think we'll have the cap space because I believe there is a good chance we could potentially get tavares (I do have a reliable source on that) the person told me it isn't a guarantee but he is ACTUALLY considering it heavily.

Well that would make sense, we can only afford 1 big ticket add. If we do get Taveres though I think Nylander's money would have to be shifted to the Blueline or something.

I'm torn on Taveres. The 1-2 C punch is nice but he is not a glaring need either.

I would not say this on the main boards but I do doubt him returning to the Islanders. Unlike Stamkos there is no "Contender" lure.

 

[francis246]

He's suggesting taking a different approach to the construction of our D. One that subtracts a bit of offense for more dependability.

Personally, I'd take a 35-point dman who makes the right decision 90% of the time over a 50-point dman who can only do that half the time.

I get it and it might work. But Gardiner isn't the issue on the back end. I rather see us move on from Hainsey and zaitsev and focus on getting better RHD.

Also no player is mistake free. We may get rid of gardiners issues but another issue will pop up

 

[Tak7]

The Leafs currently have 2 massive holes in their blueline:

Rielly - ?

Gardiner - ?

Dermott/Hainsey - Zaitsev



Trading away Gardiner creates 3 holes.

My math is pretty shyte, but last time I checked, 2 is less than 3.

Trading Jake is silly. Don't be silly. Don't trade Jake.

 

[Tak7]

if you could trade gardiner for another top 4 that fits more into the mold of a dman we need, then sure. But who's trading that type of dman?

I think thats a hard deal to find.

Exactly.

You aren't getting the equivalent or better than Gardiner, by trading Gardiner.

These "trade Jake" threads are so emotion-based and reactionary.

 

[GoonieFace]

The Leafs currently have 2 massive holes in their blueline:

Rielly - ?

Gardiner - ?

Dermott - Zaitsev



Trading away Gardiner creates 3 holes.

My math is pretty shyte, but last time I checked, 2 is less than 3.

Trading Jake is silly. Don't be silly. Don't trade Jake.

Wheres Hainsey?

 

[Tak7]

Wheres Hainsey?

Not in my top 4. They can't afford to ride Hainsey hard again next season

 

[BlueBaron]

Also you're telling me I'm making stuff up that you said when you're doing the same to me. I'm speaking directly about Doughty. I didn't say that no one will sign here. I said that superstars have and continue to use signing in toronto as leverage to get big deals from their teams

How soon we forget.

We don't have the cap space to pay doughty 10 million. Because that's what it's going to take. If you haven't learned from the stamkos situation then I don't know what to tell you. These players are using the thought of coming to Toronto as leverage.

This statement implies he has no desire to come here and he will just use us as leverage which is a psychic prediction. Could happen just as he could say "You know what, LA is going no where, it might be worth the extra media to win a Cup back home".

I'm not banking on it, but it's also not impossible was all I was trying to say.​

 

[Gallagbi]

I wanted Franny, but apparently. he's realllllllly not good now. like really bad.
Demers would hurt because Florida was giving him away.

IMO. how i'd look at it is either pay the price for a Pesce or something
there has to be another ... crap his name escaped me the defenseman Snow got from boston a few years ago situation

Boychuk is who you're thinking of, only problem is I don't see a cap crunch with it increasing. Not something that forces it.

Franson isn't great, which is why he'd be a 7th D type acquisition and you'd be losing both Polak and Carrick.

Demers does hurt, but I think the Leafs expected more out of Zaitsev last summer.

 

[Trapper]

As I said I am not banking on it.

The whole point of the rebuild was to acquire your own stars and stop living the dream of Getzlaf,Stamkos,Doughty,Tavares,Karlsson,etc. Maybe somebody signs, maybe they don't. Point is you can't live your life and build banking on it. We need to improve the team structure. There is no Doughty on Vegas. Structure and support.
The trend of the NHL is speed, speed that can play all 3 zones effectively and score a little. If everyone can contribute offensively a little and support each other completely, you have the makings of the formula. That's what we need to put around the core. Both at forward and at D.

 

[francis246]

How soon we forget.



This statement implies he has no desire to come here and he will just use us as leverage which is a psychic prediction. Could happen just as he could say "You know what, LA is going no where, it might be worth the extra media to win a Cup back home".

I'm not banking on it, but it's also not impossible was all I was trying to say.​

I hear you, I'm just going based on what he said which is he doesn't want to play her but he's always dreamt about it. It's not impossible but I don't see it being likely. I see Tavares as being more likely especially if we move on from Bozak.

As for Gardiner I get wanting to move him and you've made fair points. But I think without getting someone to replace him, trading him does us no good and it sets us back. A lot of people are suggesting we move him and then use those assets to get another D. The NHL doesn't work like that and not everyone is operating on our time table. It's also unlikely that we will be able to directly flip the exact assets we received for Gardiner for another's D without using assets we have. We may have to give up a grundstrom or kapanen or something else. Would losing Gardiner plus what we got for him plus another key piece be worth it? I'm not sure.

Additionally we can't assume that those trades would be in succession. We may be able to trade Gardiner this year and not get an elite dman until 2019 or 2020. Do you think it's worth it? What if dermott doesn't reach the level we want him to?

There's a lot of if's and it seems too risky to have Rielly as the only sure player on our blue line. That's my frustration, moving Gardiner seems like a huge step backwards