Hurricanes Lounge XXXI: The Self Quarantined Edition

[Navin R Slavin]

Ah that brings back some memories. There are still a few around if you ever feel nostalgic.

Yeah, I telnetted into a couple of old MUDs a few years back, and it was kinda cool. In 1991, that shit was incredible.

 

[Stickpucker]

I met a girl from a MUD in 1991.

Anyone know what a MUD is? No? All right then.

It didn't work out.

I got banned from my first MUD b/c I created a wizard named Elminster. I thought it was much classier than a Ranger with some version of XXXL3g0l4sss1232XXX

 

[Lempo]

I got banned from my first MUD b/c I created a wizard named Elminster. I thought it was much classier than a Ranger with some version of XXXL3g0l4sss1232XXX

A couple of nights before our scheduled start of conscription, me and my high school buddies noticed the Hero Quest board game on the shelf of the buddy we were hanging out at.

I don't think they had designed the game to be played as a barbarian named Travolta and a wizard named Tofu-Ice.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Well, one of the more stressful times in recent memory is over for me. It’s very minor in the grand scheme of what others are facing/have faced, but we signed a contract to have a new downsized house built last August, then spent the next 6 months trying to get our house ready to sell and get rid of 2/3rds of our stuff. We finally got it ready to go on the market mid March, just as everything was shutting down and the market was tumbling. Two weeks before, a neighbor had 12 couples show up at their open house, we had only 3 in 2 days, as people stayed home. Had 3 others came through outside the open house as well. We had one family say they were making an offer, but backed out because of concerns about the economic impact of the coronavirus. A 2nd couple made an offer that we accepted, but they slept on it and changed their mind before signing, for the same reason. A 3rd offer came a couple days later and that one went through.

Thankfully, phase 2 started so we’ve been able to sell/donate a ton of stuff and still have more to do, but at least we are in the new house and have closed on the old one. A big relief.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

So is it just me, or is this not the US military basically setting themselves up to mutiny against Trump if push comes to shove?

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

So is it just me, or is this not the US military basically setting themselves up to mutiny against Trump if push comes to shove?

Just stop. We don’t mutiny. Unless something is immoral, unethical, or illegal, orders are followed. If leaders disagree with an order we can deny executing it but, our necks are out there. We don’t say we are taking over because we disagree. Mutiny is ridiculous.

to add: in that same oath he is mentioning, we agree to obey the orders of the president of the United States.

 

[Finnish Jerk Train]

So is it just me, or is this not the US military basically setting themselves up to mutiny against Trump if push comes to shove?

I'm not quite ready to say mutiny, but I see it as a reminder to uphold the Constitution above all else. Reading between the lines, it's not unreasonable to interpret it as a tacit acknowledgement that they may be ordered to violate that Constitution, and that they should be thinking now about how they might handle that situation if it arises.

 

[Lempo]

It was something of a plot point in one of the Watch books by Terry Pratchett that the writers of the oath may have been thinking beforehand of situations that may arise, and that in due time a corrupt leader may find out that in their oath the forces have sword to uphold the law and protect the citizens and that there's nothing about obeying the said leader.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

It was something of a plot point in one of the Watch books by Terry Pratchett that the writers of the oath may have been thinking beforehand of situations that may arise, and that in due time a corrupt leader may find out that in their oath the forces have sword to uphold the law and protect the citizens and that there's nothing about obeying the said leader.

I read most of the books when I was a teen.

One of my favorite moments was when Samuel Vimes (Captain of said Night Watch/Commander of the Watch later on) demonstrates to an official why Detritus (a giant troll wearing remade elephant armor, who uses a portion of a ballista as a crossbow, whose mere presence is usually enough to stop most crime from happening) is a good cop by giving him a bad order. Detritus refuses even when Vimes shoves rank is his face.

 

[MinJaBen]

In practice, the part of the oath that says to support and defend the constitution, implying that each soldier should not follow an illegal order, is worthless. We've all seen throughout our lives many cases in the courts get ruled one way, then overturned by a higher court. How is any but a very few highly placed soldiers to determine what a lawful or unlawful order is? Couple that with the other part of the oath, which is very clear and talks about following orders of your commander in chief (and thus your commanders that get their orders from him), and it is very easy for your average enlisted man or woman in the heat of the momment to say, "I don't know about this, but I'm not going to risk my neck if I'm wrong."

 

[Lempo]

In practice, the part of the oath that says to support and defend the constitution, implying that each soldier should not follow an illegal order, is worthless. We've all seen throughout our lives many cases in the courts get ruled one way, then overturned by a higher court. How is any but a very few highly placed soldiers to determine what a lawful or unlawful order is? Couple that with the other part of the oath, which is very clear and talks about following orders of your commander in chief (and thus your commanders that get their orders from him), and it is very easy for your average enlisted man or woman in the heat of the momment to say, "I don't know about this, but I'm not going to risk my neck if I'm wrong."

It wasn't worthless in Nuremberg, where "I was just following orders." wasn't accepted as an excuse.

Yes. I know there is a legally dubious gray area inbetween following orders to quell a riot and committing a Holocaust.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

It wasn't worthless in Nuremberg, where "I was just following orders." wasn't accepted excuse.

Yes. I know there is a legally dubious gray area inbetween quelling a riot and committing a Holocaust.

Dubious grey area. Lol, I like it.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I'm not quite ready to say mutiny, but I see it as a reminder to uphold the Constitution above all else. Reading between the lines, it's not unreasonable to interpret it as a tacit acknowledgement that they may be ordered to violate that Constitution, and that they should be thinking now about how they might handle that situation if it arises.

My thinking is: Why even send this out in the first place unless it's indicating a deviation from the expected norm?

It's expected that the military follows the chain of command (to a fault at times), so it's expected that they'd obey any orders from the president. That's the norm.

The fact that they sent this out, and the language used within it (specifically mentioning the right to peacefully assemble and the emphasis on the diversity of the military), it definitely reads as a way to cover themselves if they do break the chain of command.

 

[Lempo]

My thinking is: Why even send this out in the first place unless it's indicating a deviation from the expected norm?

It's expected that the military follows the chain of command (to a fault at times), so it's expected that they'd obey any orders from the president. That's the norm.

The fact that they sent this out, and the language used within it (specifically mentioning the right to peacefully assemble and the emphasis on the diversity of the military), it definitely reads as a way to cover themselves if they do break the chain of command.

I think it's about anticipating an order, not unlike like what @Finnish Jerk Train said. But in the organizational fashion that the bigwigs are effectively giving a soft instruction beforehand in anticipation that commander-in-chief might get a bit let's say political in his wording on the anticipated command.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Oh, and regarding that Australian press team that was assaulted a few pages back, here's the police interpretation of what was clearly caught on camera with multiple angles:

Spencer said reporter Amelia Brace and cameraman Tim Myers were in a “very dangerous area in the middle of violent protesters” that were being cleared from Lafayette Park. U.S. Park Police said in a statement that protesters threw projectiles around 6:30 p.m. Monday.
The Australian crew “may have fallen,” and that because of the loud noise and the “lack of readily identifiable journalist markings,” Brace and Myers were not “readily indistinguishable from violent protesters,” Spencer said.
“We wish the Australian reporting team well and simply wish that the circumstances of their visit had been better,” Spencer said.

Police union will not ID officer in Australian TV crew attack | WTOP

 

[Joe McGrath]

So it looks like there’s going to be a lot of unemployed angry and violent police officers with weapons and combat training who their former colleagues won’t snitch on. Should be a blast.

 

[MinJaBen]

It wasn't worthless in Nuremberg, where "I was just following orders." wasn't accepted as an excuse.

Yes. I know there is a legally dubious gray area inbetween following orders to quell a riot and committing a Holocaust.

There were 185 people tried in Nuremberg. Trials like that are for flag officers, those in direct command of the crimes, and a few grunts that did really identifiable bad things. Most of the enlisted that shoved the victims onto the trains never saw a courtroom.

 

[Lempo]

There were 185 people tried in Nuremberg. Trials like that are for flag officers, those in direct command of the crimes, and a few grunts that did really identifiable bad things. Most of the enlisted that shoved the victims onto the trains never saw a courtroom.

... yes. My intended onus was to allude to the the catchphrase. The rest was fluff really to appear smart and creative, because I didn't want to be done with "You know who said they were only following the orders? The Nazis!"

(Also, the Nuremberg trials on the whole was an important milestone in introducing the concept of militaries generally having to "legally" heed the human rights, which is tangentially related to the issue at hand.)

Obviously, we are not looking to see the US Army or any prominent part of it charged in a courtroom here. What potentially might happen is that a few grunts might happen to do some identifiable bad things in an isolated incident that gets out of hand. And I think that exactly is what the military bigwigs want to avoid here. For the sake of the said soldiers and for the sake of the military as whole.

Because the generals can't publicly tell the soldiers to "See that you don't open fire at US citizens, morons!", because the said citizens can't know that the army boys have their muzzles on lest there be no deterrent.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Bad cops are a problem, but the bigger problems are unclear policies regarding use of force, and our inability to legally police the bad police as a result.

If you are interesting in changing that, go to 8cantwait.org and tell your Mayor to fix it. Cops ultimately report to mayors, and local government is way easier to fix than federal government.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Bad cops are a problem, but the bigger problems are unclear policies regarding use of force, and our inability to legally police the bad police as a result.

If you are interesting in changing that, go to 8cantwait.org and tell your Mayor to fix it. Cops ultimately report to mayors, and local government is way easier to fix than federal government.

Exactly, every jurisdiction (city, county, university, etc) has their own rules. Cops identifying themselves isnt a requirement everywhere. Even in places where it should be done there is language in the rules to get around it (like Seattle).

Standardized rules may be better in some areas and they may not be in others. Not sure the best solution but better nation wide regulations would help.

 

[sabremike]

Exactly, every jurisdiction (city, county, university, etc) has their own rules. Cops identifying themselves isnt a requirement everywhere. Even in places where it should be done there is language in the rules to get around it (like Seattle).

Standardized rules may be better in some areas and they may not be in others. Not sure the best solution but better nation wide regulations would help.

Think this is relevant: My dad was chief of police in a small village in Westchester County and he once told me he was very hesitant to hire guys from NYPD. His reasoning was that they had a very different way of handling things that worked in the city but would not be effective in a small suburban village.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Think this is relevant: My dad was chief of police in a small village in Westchester County and he once told me he was very hesitant to hire guys from NYPD. His reasoning was that they had a very different way of handling things that worked in the city but would not be effective in a small suburban village.

I can see that. Folks who are in a harsher environment tend to go from 0 to harsh really quickly because of that environment. A lower key environment wouldn’t require anything over even keel.

now what comes first harsh environment that requires cops to go harsh or harsh cops cause the harsh environment is another emotionally charged conversation that doesn’t have a straight forward answer.

 

[Lempo]

to add: in that same oath he is mentioning, we agree to obey the orders of the president of the United States.

Well. ****.

But then it's curiouser and curiouser that the general chose to emphasize the Constitution and leave the orders of the POTUS unmentioned in this communique.

Like telling them which one to go by in case there is a serious disconnect between the two.

 

[Lempo]

(I wrote the **** myself, in case you were wondering what word was bad enough to warrant full four stars by the forum filter.)

(If you want to have a chuckle, go test possible four letter words with the preview option)

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Well. ****.

But then it's curiouser and curiouser that the general chose to emphasize the Constitution and leave the orders of the POTUS unmentioned in this communique.

Like telling them which one to go by in case there is a serious disconnect between the two.

from POV this is letter that says how we (armed forces) will treat everyone, fairly and that is why he quotes the Constitution. The leaders of all the branches came out with statement. The General felt he should come out for all of the Armed Forces. That is all it means but, what do i know? At lot less that the folks on twitter so, I have been told.