Hugh Jessimen Vs. Lee Stempniak

[Brock]

I am simply sick of people making assertions about players they've never seen. In short then I guess I'm sick of a lot of what goes on here at hfboards even though I personally love it here. Why can't you folks just admit you, like every other scout, GM, fan, etc., have absolutely zero idea where a VAST VAST majority of these kids are going to develo into?
I believe Stempniak to be the better player, as that is what his coach said. I am asking for people's opinions, WHO HAVE ACTUALLY SEEN THEM PLAY. Why are you folks so offended and upset by that idea? I've clearly hit a sore spot here at hfboards on this topic as you folks get so touchy when someone (correctly) points out that seeing as how most of us have never seen a vast majority of these kids play, our opinions are of no meaning whatsoever and, if we even thought about it for a minute, we'd not allow ourselves to develop opinions until we see them play. Yes, this is asking a lot... anyway, this is comical and meaningless and I'm wasting my time, alas. I simply wanted someone who has seen both of them play to offer their INFORMED opinion. What I got and continue to get are responses from people who wouldn't recognize Lee Stempniak if he bit them. Gee, that's ssoooooooo helpful..... typical, really, and I should have expected it. I've posted here for years, nothing much has changed.

Then why try to hide your opinion? Why not come right out and say that you believed Stempniak to be the better player + PROSPECT, and challenge others to prove you wrong.

People here would respect you much more if you simply stated your opinion and then backed it up with the fact that Dartmouth's coach had singled him out as his pick as the best player in the conference. Or that THN has picked Stempniak as their Hobey Baker contender. Or that Stempniak's skills are just as transferable to the NHL level, he just doesnt have Jessiman's size.

You simply picked the wrong angle to approach this from.

Another tip would be not to interfere with the thread while it is getting attention, and to bring the attention to yourself like you did in this thread. Let people generate responses on the issue at hand. You simply hijacked your own thread by trying to hammer home the same point everytime someone replied, whether it be with someone intelligent and useful or whether it was with something that went against your opinion. For someone who has come here for years, you should have realized this by now.

Why are you folks so offended and upset by that idea? I've clearly hit a sore spot here at hfboards on this topic as you folks get so touchy

It seems to be the other way around here, If I'm not mistaken, you seem to be the one who took this thread to heart first.

I am asking for people's opinions, WHO HAVE ACTUALLY SEEN THEM PLAY. Why are you folks so offended and upset by that idea? I've clearly hit a sore spot here at hfboards on this topic as you folks get so touchy when someone (correctly) points out that seeing as how most of us have never seen a vast majority of these kids play, our opinions are of no meaning whatsoever and, if we even thought about it for a minute, we'd not allow ourselves to develop opinions until we see them play.

If the opinions here of folks are so meaningless, why do you come here?

The reality is that unless you are truly a professional scout, its incredibly difficult to see every prospect in the world. This message board is a way to find out information, second hand information, about prospects that you havent personally seen play. You then take that sort through that information and form your own opinion of that player. Thats the reality of the "armchair" scouting community. I personally only really get to see players in the CHL and AHL play (and some europeans and College kids in the WJC's). For the rest I rely on the people of this site for information, whether it be on the more obscure prospects (like Stempniak for example, or maybe his conference rival Matt Moulson, which would be a better argument IMO, Stempniak vs Moulson, but thats another day) or more known european prospects. I trust the opinion of the more knowledgable posters here, and everyone has their own opinion on that.

Just try not to pick so many fights, and simply let the information come in, and you might be more successful in finding what you want here.

 

[guitaraholic*]

You believe he is better without ever seeing him.

So why are you bashing other people for believing scouts and such who passed over Stemp till the 5th round?

Pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

I've given you first hand info and you've still yet to address it, yet you attack other people who give you opinions the same as yours - without viewing them.

wow, this one really takes the cake. As I stated before, their coach said lee is the BEST PLAYER in the league. A league that includes Jessimen. Therefore Lee is a better player than Jessimen. I base this on WHAT THE COACH OF THEIR TEAM SAID. How many times do I have to repeat this?
Seriously, this has just degenerated... end of my involvement with this thread at this point. What a waste.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Another tip would be not to interfere with the thread while it is getting attention, and to bring the attention to yourself like you did in this thread. Let people generate responses on the issue at hand. You simply hijacked your own thread by trying to hammer home the same point everytime someone replied, whether it be with someone intelligent and useful or whether it was with something that went against your opinion. For someone who has come here for years, you should have realized this by now.

This is probably some of the best piece of advice anyone can ever get to get more enjoyment out of HF.

I won't claim I always follow this advice but it is excellent. Getting the information you want is an art. Threads can quickly degenerate with a few quick sentences.

 

[guitaraholic*]

This is probably some of the best piece of advice anyone can ever get to get more enjoyment out of HF.

I won't claim I always follow this advice but it is excellent. Getting the information you want is an art. Threads can quickly degenerate with a few quick sentences.

I never thought I'd have to make myself clear on such simple concepts as to what I was asking for so I had no intention of 'hijacking' my own thread, even though others pretty much forced my hand. Simply put, what part of "I only want opinions from those who have seen these guys play" is so hard to understand? Oh, yeah, it's hockeysfuture, where everybody has an opinion on things they know nothing about. yes, I have posted here for years, long enough to know what to expect. I suppose I give more credit than is deserved at times.

 

[Bacchus]

wow, this one really takes the cake. As I stated before, their coach said lee is the BEST PLAYER in the league. A league that includes Jessimen. Therefore Lee is a better player than Jessimen. I base this on WHAT THE COACH OF THEIR TEAM SAID. How many times do I have to repeat this?
Seriously, this has just degenerated... end of my involvement with this thread at this point. What a waste.

And everyone else bases their opinions on 30 GM's and their scouting staff who all believed Jessiman has more potential than Stempniak (and was therefore picked FOUR rounds earlier).

 

[Rabid Ranger]

A simple answer to the real question hidden in this thread:

Lee Stempniak has proven to be a better point producer at the college level up to this point then Hugh Jessiman. Whether that means he's a better pro prospect is anyone's guess, although it's clear IMO that Jessiman has quite a bit more potential because of his huge size and skating ability.

 

[guitaraholic*]

And everyone else bases their opinions on 30 GM's and their scouting staff who all believed Jessiman has more potential than Stempniak (and was therefore picked FOUR rounds earlier).

another gem. classic. I'm going to have to bookmark this one. Hey, I'm sure you'd rather have Jason Bonsignore over Pavol Demitra, right? If EVERYONE bases their opinons on 30 GMS and their staff then what is the point of even debating any of the player ratings? We'd simply defer to the draft order.

Wow, two swings and two misses in one post. Nice.

 

[Bacchus]

another gem. classic. I'm going to have to bookmark this one. Hey, I'm sure you'd rather have Jason Bonsignore over Pavol Demitra, right? If EVERYONE bases their opinons on 30 GMS and their staff then what is the point of even debating any of the player ratings? We'd simply defer to the draft order.

Wow, two swings and two misses in one post. Nice.

Well, as said several times from several posters, Stempniak may well be the better player right now.
Jessiman on the other hand has more potential - as simple as that.

And no, the Blues should not be ranked higher just because the coach of both says that Stempniak is the better player - right now.

 

[guitaraholic*]

A simple answer to the real question hidden in this thread:

Lee Stempniak has proven to be a better point producer at the college level up to this point then Hugh Jessiman. Whether that means he's a better pro prospect is anyone's guess, although it's clear IMO that Jessiman has quite a bit more potential because of his huge size and skating ability.

he has more potential because he has more size? No, not much of an answer. If Lee was 5'8'' maybe I'd buy it but he's 6'0'' and around 200lbs, so his size isn't going to hold him back and his skating, and this proves you don't know anything about Lee, is supposed to be excellent. So if you're basing it on Jessimen's skating and you've never actually seen either of them skate and Lee is supposed to be an oustanding skater, then... well, you can see that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. So, again, I ask, have you EVER seen both of them play? No? Guess where I file your opinion?
Let's re-examine some basic facts: I have NEVER said Stemp was a better player or a better prospect. I have not offered my opinion on the subject. Why not? REPEAT AFTER ME: I'VE NEVER SEEN THEM PLAY. I have pointed out that Lee's coach (he has seen them play, folks) has said Lee is the BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE. The age difference is negligable. So why Jessimen so highly hyped and Lee completely off the radar? Oh, yeah, no reason whatsoever except some hype which by all accounts Jessimen hasn't even lived up to since then.
seeing as how all of you have offered up your opinions in SPITE of the FACT none of you have ever seen them play, I'll do the same: Hugh Jessimen will be a complete bust, one of many in the Rangers current crop of "prospects" and he will go down in the lore of the Rags as one of the biggest flops (and there have been many) of the Sather Reign of Error.
Thanks for your opinions, folks. Really. Meant a lot to me.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Well, as said several times from several posters, Stempniak may well be the better player right now.
Jessiman on the other hand has more potential - as simple as that.

And no, the Blues should not be ranked higher just because the coach of both says that Stempniak is the better player - right now.

That's the connection I don't get. Why should the Blues ranking be higher because a guy (Stempniak) is acknowledged as the better college player than another guy (Jessiman)? Hockey's Future is all about predicting pro potential, I don't think you'll find many people, including Dartmouth's coach, who would say that Stempniak is a better pro prospect.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

I never thought I'd have to make myself clear on such simple concepts as to what I was asking for so I had no intention of 'hijacking' my own thread, even though others pretty much forced my hand. Simply put, what part of "I only want opinions from those who have seen these guys play" is so hard to understand? Oh, yeah, it's hockeysfuture, where everybody has an opinion on things they know nothing about. yes, I have posted here for years, long enough to know what to expect. I suppose I give more credit than is deserved at times.

Hope I didn't offend you.

But yes, you did hijack your own thread several times. In fact, you hijacked your own thread in your very first post.

It's not that I disagree with ALL the conclusions you reached, although I don't agree with everything. It's that if your goal was truly to get information on those two players, you did it the wrong way, starting in your very first post.

At that point, your best bet is to let things cool off and start a true thread in a few weeks, focusing solely on information, if that's what you want, without your hidden agendas and the hostility.

That's what I would do if I was really looking for info. Another method is to look at the boards and write down names of people who can help you. I do that sometimes. Then you PM the guys relevant. So if a poster is a Darmouth fan, you go straight for him and avoid what you don't want.

I do agree that boards aren't perfect. But if you take a deep breath, you'll see you went at it the wrong way.

 

[Bacchus]

That's the connection I don't get. Why should the Blues ranking be higher because a guy (Stempniak) is acknowledged as the better college player than another guy (Jessiman)? Hockey's Future is all about predicting pro potential, I don't think you'll find many people, including Dartmouth's coach, who would say that Stempniak is a better pro prospect.

Just look in the St. Louis Blues forum at the threads guitaraholic started.

 

[guitaraholic*]

Well, as said several times from several posters, Stempniak may well be the better player right now.
Jessiman on the other hand has more potential - as simple as that.

And no, the Blues should not be ranked higher just because the coach of both says that Stempniak is the better player - right now.

you're full of gems of logic, aren't you? What do you base your assertion that jessiman has "more potential?" On what? let me guess, it's because someone told you, right? You certainly couldn't have decided for yourself, with your own two eyes as you've never seen either of them play even a second.
And the Blues should be ranked higher because they have excellent prospects, and this is not the point.... And I never asserted that the Blues should be rated higher solely on the delta between jessimen and Stempniak, ace. I'm assuming you simply mis-read my post or didn't understand it.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

he has more potential because he has more size? No, not much of an answer. If Lee was 5'8'' maybe I'd buy it but he's 6'0'' and around 200lbs, so his size isn't going to hold him back and his skating, and this proves you don't know anything about Lee, is supposed to be excellent. So if you're basing it on Jessimen's skating and you've never actually seen either of them skate and Lee is supposed to be an oustanding skater, then... well, you can see that if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. So, again, I ask, have you EVER seen both of them play? No? Guess where I file your opinion?
Let's re-examine some basic facts: I have NEVER said Stemp was a better player or a better prospect. I have not offered my opinion on the subject. Why not? REPEAT AFTER ME: I'VE NEVER SEEN THEM PLAY. I have pointed out that Lee's coach (he has seen them play, folks) has said Lee is the BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE. The age difference is negligable. So why Jessimen so highly hyped and Lee completely off the radar? Oh, yeah, no reason whatsoever except some hype which by all accounts Jessimen hasn't even lived up to since then.
seeing as how all of you have offered up your opinions in SPITE of the FACT none of you have ever seen them play, I'll do the same: Hugh Jessimen will be a complete bust, one of many in the Rangers current crop of "prospects" and he will go down in the lore of the Rags as one of the biggest flops (and there have been many) of the Sather Reign of Error.
Thanks for your opinions, folks. Really. Meant a lot to me.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you that Stempniak is the best player in the league. As for why Jessiman is so highly hyped, it probably has something to do with the fact he has all the talent of Stempniak in a body that is over five inches taller and twenty pounds heavier. You don't see many players like that very often. Will he be a bust, I guess he could be, but it won't be because he's Ranger property, it will be because he doesn't work hard enough, and that doesn't seem to be the case with him.

 

[guitaraholic*]

pathetic. just pathetic.

 

[AJ1982]

pathetic. just pathetic.

Time to take some time off and cool down a bit. Hostility isn't going to somehow make your argument or convince anyone that you're right, and it's a wasted emotion, especially over the ineternet.

 

[Bacchus]

you're full of gems of logic, aren't you? What do you base your assertion that jessiman has "more potential?" On what? let me guess, it's because someone told you, right? You certainly couldn't have decided for yourself, with your own two eyes as you've never seen either of them play even a second.
And the Blues should be ranked higher because they have excellent prospects, and this is not the point.... And I never asserted that the Blues should be rated higher solely on the delta between jessimen and Stempniak, ace. I'm assuming you simply mis-read my post or didn't understand it.

I'm basing my opinion on the fact (and I know that means nothing to you, but sorry, that's my opinion) that Jessiman is 6'5 big. I don't find it hard to imagine that a guy with such a huge frame has a lot of potential - IF he is willing to use it and IF he can chip in some goals as well. Both seem to be the case.

On my "missed" point: Reading some other threads you started, that was my assumption. Sure, it's nothing more and it's too late now to proof that I maybe right, because as of now no one responded "Yes, I've seen both play several times and Stempniak is 10 times the player Jessiman is" - and no one will.
It is an assumption, nothing more. Nothing to get mad about.

 

[guitaraholic*]

Time to take some time off and cool down a bit. Hostility isn't going to somehow make your argument or convince anyone that you're right, and it's a wasted emotion, especially over the ineternet.

You're right. You're totally and absolutely correct. My apologies to you personally. But, just for the record, I am NOT trying to convince anyone of anything one way or the other. I simply asked some questions. I sincerely appreciate your non-confrontational way of telling me to cool down and I'll respect that... and you. Cheers.

 

[Kubera55]

You're right. You're totally and absolutely correct. My apologies to you personally. But, just for the record, I am NOT trying to convince anyone of anything one way or the other. I simply asked some questions. I sincerely appreciate your non-confrontational way of telling me to cool down and I'll respect that... and you. Cheers.

Guitar... I know you are cooling down, and so I'm going to try to phrase this carefully. I'm really not trying to aggravate you with this, but attempting to explain why posters on this thread responded as they did. Myself included.

Let's say you innocently just want to get information on a relatively unknown prospect named Lee Stempeniak. Come here and post a thread that says, 'hey folks, anyone see this kid play? I just read a quote from his coach that says he's a hobey baker candidate!'

Now, some people respond with some first hand scouting reports. Maybe they really gush about him. Maybe they say he's not half the player Dominic Moore or Junior Lessard was, who knows. Maybe down the road you ask how he compares to a 'well-known' prospect like Jessiman.

But by asking for a "Jessiman v. Stempeniak" comparison you are loading the dice and daring people to shoot holes in your argument without even making it. Instead of just asking for information you've shaken a bees nest of people who couldn't give a crap about Stempeniak but instead who have an opinion on the much more well known, and controversial, Jessiman. Suddenly, instead of the thread being about Stempeniak, it's about Hugh, which wasn't your intention at all. But by bringing his name into it you've, as Vlad said, hijacked your own thread away from the very topic you wanted information on.

Maybe you eventually wanted information to fuel an argument about why Stempeniak is as good a prospect as Jessiman. Maybe you wanted to then argue that HF's failure to include Stempeniak in their calculation of the Blues farm system left them short-changed. Maybe you didn't. But by your choice of language, you short-circuited the whole thing. You lept from point A to point C, whether you meant to or not, and several posters tried to slow you down. (Though most I would argue were pretty civil about it).

Anyways, as I've said a few times now, I'm surprised that Stemp wasn't included in the Blues top 20, given his rating from HF (6.0). But neither the quote from his coach nor his resume of production in the ECAC convince me that he's an elite prospect. But again, I haven't seen him play, so I guess my opinion isn't really what you are after.

Good luck . . .

 

[xander]

he has more potential because he has more size? No, not much of an answer. If Lee was 5'8'' maybe I'd buy it but he's 6'0'' and around 200lbs, so his size isn't going to hold him back

this isn't a question of stempiak being undersized, it's a matter of jessiman having exceptional size. He's not saying Jessiman has more potential becouse stempiak is too small, but that he does becouse jessiman is 6'5" 220lbs.

 

[modestfwd]

Just to add...

Stemp is greatly benifiting from Jessiman. Throughout last season Jessiman was double and triple teamed while going against the top defensive pairing and checking line. Stemp didn't have to go against any of this, when he was on the same line as Jessiman he was usually wide open due to these double/triple teams. Then, when not on the same line as Jessiman he didn't have to go against the top defensemen and checking lines.

Most teams would ask themselves: "Hmmm... Dartmouth was Stempniak and Jessiman. Who would we rather double team? Who could do the most damage if turned loose?" And the answer was always Jessiman.

I don't even buy into the fact that Stemp is a better PLAYER than Jessiman. Jessiman is still more highly skilled, in my opinion. Because if you don't defend against Stemp, he could score maybe 2-3 pts. But if you don't defend against Jessiman, he'll score 3-5 points and dominate play.

 

[AJ1982]

You're right. You're totally and absolutely correct. My apologies to you personally. But, just for the record, I am NOT trying to convince anyone of anything one way or the other. I simply asked some questions. I sincerely appreciate your non-confrontational way of telling me to cool down and I'll respect that... and you. Cheers.

Hehe, no problem at all, I know I've found myself getting a little hot under the collar at times over the net. I think a lot of it has to do with miscommunication, text often doesn't give the whole picture of what people are really trying to express. It's the nature of the beast I suppose

 

[Hunter Gathers]

pathetic. just pathetic.

I would think you are at this point. I've given you first hand information, since, yes. I've seen them both play. And I've even come to agree that Stemp may be the better all around college player right now. But you've still failed to ignore the fact that you've never seen them both play. Jessiman looks to be an AMAZING prospect. Except, he was triple teamed MANY games last year. Triple teamed! How is a player supposed to function up to his potential when he is triple teamed!?

Go watch them. I've given you enough information (first hand, at that) to last you a damn good while.

Don't sit there and believe just what the coach said. You don't see Stemp on many top 50 prospect lists floating around. Jessiman clearly has more potential. He's a potential first line power forward who can put up 70-80 points and 100+ pims! I'd say Stemp is at MOST (and that's WAYYYY high end potential) a 2nd liner player capable of 40 points or so at the NHL level. It's the style of game he plays. Go watch him.

Go watch THEM. And you can be the judge of who's the better prospect.

Your bias is ridiculous. Get the Blues glasses off.

I've seen them both play. Yes, I am a Ranger fan but it doesn't stop me from saying (that even though he has been triple teamed and such) that Jessiman is not the point producer or overall player that Stemp has been thus far in college.

But to say Stemp is a better prospect right now would be insane, IMO.

 

[degroat*]

This stuff about Jessiman being triple teamed is quite hillarious. Had opposing teams actually put 3 players on Jessiman and left 2 players to cover the other 4 Big Green players, Dartmouth would have won the National Championship. Easily.

Teams may have focused their defense on Jessiman. I have no doubt about that. But when you sit there and obviously lie about what happened on the ice then why should anything you say be taken seriously?

Your bias is ridiculous. Get the Blues glasses off.

Oh, and maybe GA hasn't made it clear enough in this thread by saying it a dozen plus times, but he never once said that Stempniak is a better prospect.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

This stuff about Jessiman being triple teamed is quite hillarious. Had opposing teams actually put 3 players on Jessiman and left 2 players to cover the other 4 Big Green players, Dartmouth would have won the National Championship. Easily.

Teams may have focused their defense on Jessiman. I have no doubt about that. But when you sit there and obviously lie about what happened on the ice then why should anything you say be taken seriously?

Your bias is ridiculous. Get the Blues glasses off.

Oh, and maybe GA hasn't made it clear enough in this thread by saying it a dozen plus times, but he never once said that Stempniak is a better prospect.

He was double and triple teamed all least year. A number of posters can clarify that. Sorry, but that's the way it was. Why do you think his PPG dropped tremendously? He just slowed down? No. Teams learned how dominant he was, and, in turn, double and triple teamed him whenever he was in the offensive zone.

And when I say get your Blues glasses off.

It's because I've given him firsthand info and he still tries to dodge it and slam me since I'm saying how I feel on the matter which isn't in favor of Stemp (and I try extremely hard not to overrate my players and prospects).