Hudler, Filppula and Brunner

[Heaton]

Brunner should have been brought back. It's inexcusable that the Wings went with Cleary.

Don't care about Flip and Hudler. I would have traded them at the deadline. Wings weren't contending with them on the roster.

I don't think it was Brunner or Cleary though.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

I don't think it was Brunner or Cleary though.

Cleary is a top six winger. Let's not pretend Mike Babcock isn't the coach of the Wings.

Heck Brunner on the third line would have been great too. Just keep that third line intact.

 

[PullHard]

Alfredsson took Brunner's spot as RH forward for our middle 6. If we never signed Alfredsson and re-signed Brunner it likely would've been a carousel of Cleary/ Brunner/ Bertuzzi/ Tatar/ Samuelsson/ Miller all switching in and out of that hole over the course of the season.

 

[JPE123]

I think we'll be happy we signed alfie as the season progresses but Brunner would have been nice to have kept if it could've worked out. The Daniel Cleary experiment, not so much

 

[joe89]

I'm not much into hindsight but I would've signed Brunner and dropped Fil, Miller, Cleary. But considering Brunner was offered a pretty decent deal I'm not sure there's much to moan about. Signing Cleary is a bigger problem than any non-signing for me and ****s up the roster and opportunity for young players.

 

[crashman]

Filppula is the only one I'll miss, but Weiss might be the better fit in the long run. Time will tell.

 

[VladTheImpaler]

Brunner and Hudler will be easily replace with Nyquist and Tatar. Flip wonted too much money. Happy for those 3 , but we should move on

Don't understand hate for Cleary. Line Cleary-Anderson- Bert is going to surprise many of you this year

Funny. Maybe once they make some kind of offensive or defensive impact and prove they aren't slow as molasses, then they will surprise us. That would be the day.

The best option this team has as a third line is Nyquist - Helm - Tatar IMO

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Are people still going with story about Weiss being a real 2C and Flip not being a 2C?
I've watched 2 1/2 Tampa games so far. And Flip is absolutely a real 2C. Not just production wise -- but taking care of the game at both ends of the rink, winning big faceoffs, etc.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I don't think it was Brunner or Cleary though.

It was Brunner or Alfredsson.
If you think Alfredsson is better at 40-41 than Brunner from 27-230... then you can't be upset with management about losing Brunner, IMO

 

[PullHard]

Are people still going with story about Weiss being a real 2C and Flip not being a 2C?
I've watched 2 1/2 Tampa games so far. And Flip is absolutely a real 2C. Not just production wise -- but taking care of the game at both ends of the rink, winning big faceoffs, etc.

I think Flip had to get away from Babcock, TBH. I don't think he ever would've been comfortable here they way he will be somewhere else. He didn't fall under the "everyday'er" category, so I'm sure he got an earful fairly often.

 

[probertrules24]

I don't think it was Brunner or Cleary though.

Yes, but that doesn't help the argument that Holland is a terrible GM.

Are people still going with story about Weiss being a real 2C and Flip not being a 2C?
I've watched 2 1/2 Tampa games so far. And Flip is absolutely a real 2C. Not just production wise -- but taking care of the game at both ends of the rink, winning big faceoffs, etc.

Can 2 1/2 games really compare to the 588 total games of watching Fil in Detroit. I'm not trying to discredit him as I always liked him but I think he priced him self out of Detroit.

When it comes to Weiss I'm willing to give him half the year to figure it out. He's coming from a completely different defensive style and is still trying to figure out how to produce offense and be in defensive position. I could imagine it's a different world playing for Babcock and trying to match his expectations.

 

[Henkka]

Brunner we should have kept - dumb move by Holland, IMO.

What is the dumb move?

Holland offered exactly same deal than Brunner finally got from Devils - before free agency.

Brunner decided to seek better offers. So Holland signed Alfredsson instead of him.

Brunner wanted a top6 role and now he is at Devils 1st PP and 2nd/3rd line minutes. Pretty much same role he had with Wings.

15:35 ice-time at Wings
15:46 ice-time at Devils

What can you do?

I also think that we should have kept him, because I liked Brunner, but somethimes things just don't go in your way.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Are people still going with story about Weiss being a real 2C and Flip not being a 2C?
I've watched 2 1/2 Tampa games so far. And Flip is absolutely a real 2C. Not just production wise -- but taking care of the game at both ends of the rink, winning big faceoffs, etc.

I agree, he's looked like one of the best players in Tampa. Not as good as he was in 11-12 but closer to that than what he was last year. Looks like he's going to have his second best year of his career, if one makes early prediction based on three games.

 

[JPE123]

It was Brunner or Alfredsson.
If you think Alfredsson is better at 40-41 than Brunner from 27-230... then you can't be upset with management about losing Brunner, IMO

Yep, it's a fair point. I've been debating that one with myself(always win). I just wasn't completely sold on Brunner after last year and like Alfie's game a lot although the age is an issue. I never doubted Brunner as a goal scorer. I did notice that although he has 3 goals already he's also minus 3 and that was my worry- the rest of his game

 

[BF3]

Are people still going with story about Weiss being a real 2C and Flip not being a 2C?
I've watched 2 1/2 Tampa games so far. And Flip is absolutely a real 2C. Not just production wise -- but taking care of the game at both ends of the rink, winning big faceoffs, etc.

I'll take the Red Wings sample size over the Lightning sample size.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Yes, but that doesn't help the argument that Holland is a terrible GM.



Can 2 1/2 games really compare to the 588 total games of watching Fil in Detroit. I'm not trying to discredit him as I always liked him but I think he priced him self out of Detroit.

When it comes to Weiss I'm willing to give him half the year to figure it out. He's coming from a completely different defensive style and is still trying to figure out how to produce offense and be in defensive position. I could imagine it's a different world playing for Babcock and trying to match his expectations.

I'm not saying we should make big pronouncements based on 2-3 games.
But what I am seriously beginning to wonder about is the Red Wings 2nd tier of players.

Here's what I know about Flip. Except for last year, he was productive playing with Zetterberg. {reviously, in small stints with Datsyuk, he'd been productive.

When he played 2nd or 3rd line with Franzen, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Hudler etc ... he was still a solid even strength producer (at the same pace or better than Weiss almost every year since 08).

He was also good enough as 2C (mostly) for us to win the cup.

What I've heard is that Flip hated Babcock and that there was never any realistic possibility he was coming back to Detroit if Babcock was here.

So, if that's the case so be it.

But I still disagree with the notion that Weiss is some significant upgrade on Filppula.
I just have no reason to believe it until he shows it.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Yep, it's a fair point. I've been debating that one with myself(always win). I just wasn't completely sold on Brunner after last year and like Alfie's game a lot although the age is an issue. I never doubted Brunner as a goal scorer. I did notice that although he has 3 goals already he's also minus 3 and that was my worry- the rest of his game

I don't think you can hang the -3 around Brunner's neck though.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

What is the dumb move?

Holland offered exactly same deal than Brunner finally got from Devils - before free agency.

Brunner decided to seek better offers. So Holland signed Alfredsson instead of him.

Brunner wanted a top6 role and now he is at Devils 1st PP and 2nd/3rd line minutes. Pretty much same role he had with Wings.

15:35 ice-time at Wings
15:46 ice-time at Devils

What can you do?

I also think that we should have kept him, because I liked Brunner, but somethimes things just don't go in your way.

I don't believe much of the speculation about the pre-July 1 offers.

Every story leading up to free agency said the Red Wings were having difficulty trying to figure out how much Brunner was worth.

I don't believe the Wings made serious offers to keep Filppula, Brunner or Cleary before July 1.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I agree, he's looked like one of the best players in Tampa. Not as good as he was in 11-12 but closer to that than what he was last year. Looks like he's going to have his second best year of his career, if one makes early prediction based on three games.

The question with Filppula was would he ever show that consistency here? I used to support Filppula, his talent was supremely evident a lot of nights, but he just needed a fresh start.

Part of looking at all these guys is what they would have provided in a Wings jersey. Hudler and Filppula had plenty of opportunities to get a contract, really we all like to make fun of Holland and Babcock for their loyalty, but these guys played themselves out of Detroit. They have gone to worse teams where ice time and production is to be expected. I have always compared Hudler to Kozlov, thought he would play well on a bottom feeder and put up some good numbers, so he isn't surprising me in Calgary. Filppula should be fine in Tampa, I hope he takes advantage of his fresh start, but he isn't a better player than Weiss.

The Brunner situation is unfortunate, they offered him the exact deal he signed, he thought he could get more and didn't. Instead of twiddling their thumbs, they got aggressive and went out and got a skilled veteran that answers a couple of questions on this team with a good playoff track record, heavier game and far superior two-way play albeit at a substantial premium given the name attachment.

Brunner was going to score goals in this league we knew that, what I have noticed in the first couple of Devils games, is he is getting played lower either on the point or half wall exchanging and getting in deeper which should help him scoring goals on NJ PP unit. He also started well last year, so this should be a good litmus test if he is going to be a streaky player or if he really just tired out adjusting to all that hockey last year for the first time in his life. But DeBoer is putting him areas where he can be most successful on offense, deploying him in a way to maximize that, would Babcock really have done that? By the way his defense is still pretty awful and his board play has been just as brutal as we all remember, a nice highlight of it in the GWG that came at his expense the last time out.

Really the big issue is what would they have done here though? You can play hindsight or look for anything to needle at this angle to be more discontent with Wings management. But how these guys produce in other organizations can have very little to do with what we should have expected if they had continued here with our system and coaching staff.

Hardly anybody wants Cleary, Sammy or Bert here, but these guys don't change that reality, that is generously changing the narrative to hammer home a point. I expect to see it especially if Brunner keeps it up, but they offered him a fair deal and he rejected the same deal he signed. They moved on. If I had any faith they would actually promote the kids and give them opportunities you could also point out it was better for the long-term goals of the franchise, but they have to promote Nyquist and Tatar, along with getting Jurco ready for the show for that point to really be the case. Still hoping they come to that realization, but that needed to happen regardless and the hope is shortly having pushed these guys out the door that is the direction it will head in.

 

[Henkka]

I don't believe much of the speculation about the pre-July 1 offers.

Free agency started july 5th and there was the one week negotiation period. GMs were better on the radar than ever about the situation and values.

I think if Holland would have made a better offer for Brunner, ~3.0 million (overpaying when there's no competition against other offers is pretty weird...) and he would have re-signed him, that would given 500k more capspace, because Alfredsson is 3.5 with normal salary. Re-signing Brunner we can't exceed the cap with +35 bonuses.

So finally, Holland would have extended Cleary with 2.25 million (maybe long-term) instead of 1.75, because there was more capspace. Cleary would not have waited so long.

That's pretty much the difference. Same money would have been burned and same roster logjam would be there would be there with same figures.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/09/damien_brunner_signs_with_new.html

A source told MLive.com that the Red Wings offered Brunner the same deal but he rejected it to test the free-agent market.

"A source told."

Of course it's not 100% guaranteed that's most valid information we can get. If you don't want to believe in these things and want to keep every fictional and speculative debate going based on your own opinions, you'll stand on a very shaky ground.

 

[Boomhower]

Ohhhhh, look at the pretty points!

Fantasy NHL is nice and all... but if you actually watch the games Brunner is also on pace to cost the devils 20 games (atleast) this year.

 

[BinCookin]

It should be noted all of these teams are pretty weak with forwards and that all 3 of these players are being used higher on their depth chart than we were going to use them.

They also all demanded pretty high salaries.
They all got them except Brunner.

Either way, much to early to put in any real analysis.
But I have been highly aware of all of these players point productions in their new cities.
I wish them well.

 

[Henkka]

It should be noted all of these teams are pretty weak with forwards and that all 3 of these players are being used higher on their depth chart than we were going to use them.

Very good post.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I think Flip's "talent" was always overrated.
I think what Flip had was excellent two way instincts and very good speed.
In the offensive zone, he was definitely more of a playmaker.
I don't think Flip will get over 50 points this year. But I think he provides Tampa with a center who you can put out there in every situation and count him.
He's playing with Purcell and Killorn. Not sure how good Killorn is. Purcell is pretty good.

Here's FLip's TOI
YEAR -- ESTOI PPTOI SHTOI TotalTOI
13-14 14:53 1:44 1:29 18:06 (3rd)
12-13 14:26 2:43 0:36 17:46 (4th)
11-12 14:52 2:27 0:54 18:15 (3rd)
10-11 14:01 2:01 0:39 16:43 ((4TH)
09-10 14:39 2:27 1:07 18:14 (3RD)
08-09 13:33 0:37 1:45 16:06 (6th)
07-08 13:54 1:49 1:13 16:57 (6th)

Flip's not being used in the offensive role he was in in 2011-12 -- so far

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Free agency started july 5th and there was the one week negotiation period. GMs were better on the radar than ever about the situation and values.

I think if Holland would have made a better offer for Brunner, ~3.0 million (overpaying when there's no competition against other offers is pretty weird...) and he would have re-signed him, that would given 500k more capspace, because Alfredsson is 3.5 with normal salary. Re-signing Brunner we can't exceed the cap with +35 bonuses.

So finally, Holland would have extended Cleary with 2.25 million (maybe long-term) instead of 1.75, because there was more capspace. Cleary would not have waited so long.

That's pretty much the difference. Same money would have been burned and same roster logjam would be there would be there with same figures.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/09/damien_brunner_signs_with_new.html



"A source told."

Of course it's not 100% guaranteed that's most valid information we can get. If you don't want to believe in these things and want to keep every fictional and speculative debate going based on your own opinions, you'll stand on a very shaky ground.

That's sketchy information.
What I can tell you is that there weren't a lot of quotes saying "We definitely want to keep Damien and we definitely want to keep Flip."

It was very quiet.
This team was really public about wanting to keep Howard and he was signed.
It wasn't very public about wanting to keep Filp and Brunner. And they weren't.