How would you rate / rank a player like this

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by ozzie, Jul 14, 2011.

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  1. ozzie

    ozzie Registered User

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    A friend and I at work, often discuss hockey. Not many around here do. We got to talking about some players and came up with the following.

    20+ seasons
    1800 points in a career
    800 goals in a career
    1000 assists in a career
    90 average a season
    40 goal average a season
    50 assists average a seaon
    75 pim a season

    The player would never score 50 goals or break 100 points. 98 points career high. 48 goals career high.

    No Art Ross, No Rocket Richard
    Selke type player though

    Extremely good player defensively, physical and tough. Good all around player and could play at all times, durable of course.

    How would you rank a player like this in todays NHL and at the conclussion of his NHL career.
     
  2. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    That is simply impossible. No player could average 40 goals for 20 years and never get more than 48 goals in a season. In today's NHL he would likely win a bunch of trophies with that kind of production.

    You are describing a better version of st. Louis or datsyuk with a 20 year prime. Or a messier type. Or a Howe type without the scoring leads. Clearly this player would be regarded as one of the very best in the world now and at the end of his career he would be a top 10 all time forward.

    This is not the description of a Ron Francis or mike gartner
     
  3. Pear Juice

    Pear Juice Registered User

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    Being "extremely good defensively, physical and tough" and still putting up 90 points for 20+ straight seasons would be absolutely remarkable. No player in NHL history has even come remotely close to such a feat. Gretzky managed 90+ points for 14 straight seasons, and his career total is 2857 points.

    You are talking about a player who either looses out on Richards and Art Rosses due to playing against Gretzky-type players every year of his career, or who actually plays on his average every single season. His career curve wouldn't be a curve but rather a flat line.

    If dependability and longevity are things you value highly, he would probably be among the best hockey players that ever lived.
     
  4. That would have to be a top 10 player ever. It would be like a modern day Gordie Howe, without the 5 year prime.
     
  5. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Give or take, you are describing what Sidney Crosby's career might play out as, if he continues to develop defensively and as a goalscorer, and stops getting injured, and if you ignore the couple of times he's topped your thresholds already.

    This would be a top-10 forward of all-time, IMO. Better than Stan Mikita, who I think is 6th-7th.
     
  6. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    those career numbers kind of depend on what years they were amassed in right?

    patrik elias in his best year hit those totals in the dead puck era.

    dave andreychuk, in an average prime year for him, hit those totals in 1992.

    big difference.

    if it's twenty straight years of elias' career year, that's a fantastic career. i still couldn't put this hypothetical player top ten, or even thirty, all time because odds are, that's a career with a lot of 6-10 hart finishes, but few top fives. i think to be in the top twenty-five all-time, you have to have a peak of top five, if not top three, seasons.

    actually, it strikes me now that the player you have described is prime mike modano stretched over 20 years. taking the HOH top 100 list as a template, this guy would probably be in the 40-50 range. keep in mind that chelios is #41 and he basically had that career as a defenseman with a higher peak, and dionne is #50 and he had that career minus the defensive ability and with a much higher offensive peak.

    of course, if this hypothetical player was a cornerstone of a dynasty, or the top guy on two or more cup winners, that could change the ranking. my 40-50 projection is assuming he is a very good playoff performer with multiple deep runs, but is only the best guy on one cup winner. again, basically modano over a longer haul.
     
  7. Rhiessan71

    Rhiessan71 Just a Fool

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    Not very likely.

    Gordie Howe is the only one that has even come close to accomplishing everything listed there.


    26 seasons
    1850 points in a career
    801 goals in a career
    1049 assists in a career
    71 average a season
    31 goal average a season
    40 assists average a season
    65 average pim's a season

    He never scored 50 goals, only had 100 points once. 103 points career high. 49 goals career high.

    Selke type player though

    Extremely good player defensively, very physical and extremely tough. Good all around player and could play at all times, extremely durable.


    So yeah....not very likely and besides there's not a single player in the NHL atm that I could even begin to think of as such a player or becoming such a player.
    Sorry folks but imo we're still waiting for another Howe/Richard/Orr/Gretzky/Lemieux to come along. Maybe that player is on his way in a few years or maybe we go another 20 years, who knows.
    We can only hope.
     
  8. Unaffiliated

    Unaffiliated Registered User

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    Sakic has no Ross and no Richard, came runner-up for Selke. However he has ~120pts in two of his seasons, so I guess that kinda kills it.

    Less points/goals, but I think it's possible he could have come close if not for the back problems at the end of his career.
     
  9. Kyle McMahon

    Kyle McMahon Registered User

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    Sounds pretty close to Mark Messier, though while reliable defensively, Messier wasn't Selke caliber.

    Similar value to Stan Mikita probably. You're trading a little bit of peak offense for better late career offense.

    Most people have Messier in the 20-25 range, Mikita a bit higher. So this hypothetical player probably emerges around the #15-20 all-time spot, assuming he wasn't significantly better or worse in the playoffs than regular season.
     
  10. RabbinsDuck

    RabbinsDuck Registered User

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    I'd put him ahead of Hull, maybe even Mario.... 20 freakin' years at that level (probably top 3 in Hart voting at least 10 years and winning a few).

    Oh, and I am basing this over current league scoring remaining constant. Basically this is 2008 Datsyuk, only a better goal scorer and tougher, for 20+ years straight.
     
  11. keslehr*

    keslehr* Guest

    I'd rate him as one of the best to ever play the game, top 5 all time
     
  12. RabbinsDuck

    RabbinsDuck Registered User

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    Yeah, easily.
    I could see good arguments for him over Lemieux and even Orr, but probably not Howe or Gretzky. 3rd All-time best player ever is where I see him topping out and easily a Top 10 player of all-time. Most are drastically underestimating this player's impact here.
     
  13. keslehr*

    keslehr* Guest

    Personally I'd go:

    Gretzky
    Howe
    Orr
    Player X
    Lemieux
     
  14. redbull

    redbull tomorrow is a new day

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    numbers and longevity matter somewhat, but I'd have a hard time ranking someone ahead of Mario if they didn't approach that level of dominance in their prime. 20 years of "very good" are not the same as 7 years of "out of this world"
     
  15. RabbinsDuck

    RabbinsDuck Registered User

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    But this is a hulking, brusing, perennial Selke candidate we are talking about - that's more like 20 years of "excellence" vs 4 years of "out of this world".
     
  16. ozzie

    ozzie Registered User

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    I didn't expect so much response, but fantastic to read.

    The whole topic came up when discussing Temuu Selanne and how well he has performed since the lockout and as he approached 40.

    Obviously players like Howe, Mikita come pretty close to what we were throwing around.

    We were talso thinking of PPG players and what it wold take to be considered top 10 or top 5 of all time. Without winning scoring titles and scoring the most goals, without totally dominating their peers.

    Some really good answers out there for sure.
     
  17. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    the OP didn't specify what years those 40/90 years were amassed in. if we're talking 1976-1996, this guy is closer to ron francis than mark messier.
     

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