How was Valabik at WJC?

[X-SHARKIE]

I think when it comes to Valabik, we shouldn't be called bashers when it's an opinion based on watching him play.

He's just not a very good hockey player.

Yeah I guess it's just opinion, but I love what he does in his own zone.

 

[Levitate]

eh i don't think in the NHL players for the most part are ever really "afraid" of other guys...hate playing against them, yes, don't enjoy dealing with them, yes...but afraid? you don't make it to the NHL by being afraid of other players. everyone in the NHL has played against tough guys at some point

maybe i'm just being picky about the definition of "afraid". I see that and think people mean that players are actually scared to go out on the ice at the same time and play against them...not just hating to play against them

 

[Birko19]

For some reason Valabik reminds me of Maxim Kuznestov, meaning he'll barely crack the top-6 on the d-man depth chart.

For the sake of the Atlanta Thrashers let's hope I'm wrong cause 10th overall when there was solid defenders around like A.J. Thelen and Andrej Meszaros are pretty painful to pass on when you need a solid defender for the future.

The thing I don't get is why would the Thrashers take a gamble on Valabik when there was more talented defenders like Thelen and Meszaros around? it's not like they're that desperate for size behind the blue-line, I mean they already have Coburn for that, it just does't make sense.

 

[leafaholix*]

For some reason Valabik reminds me of Maxim Kuznestov, meaning he'll barely crack the top-6 on the d-man depth chart.

For the sake of the Atlanta Thrashers let's hope I'm wrong cause 10th overall when there was solid defenders around like A.J. Thelen and Andrej Meszaros are pretty painful to pass on when you need a solid defender for the future.

The thing I don't get is why would the Thrashers take a gamble on Valabik when there was more talented defenders like Thelen and Meszaros around? it's not like they're that desperate for size behind the blue-line, I mean they already have Coburn for that, it just does't make sense.

Take a look at some of the defensemen they've drafted...

2nd Round: Libor Ustrnul - 6'5, 230
4th Round: Brian Sipotz - 6'6, 213
7th Round: Matt Suderman - 6'3, 230
4th Round: Lane Manson - 6'8, 200
5th Round: Paul Flache - 6'6, 230
8th Round: Pauli Levokari - 6'6, 225
1st Round: Braydon Coburn - 6'5, 225
1st Round: Boris Valabik - 6'6, 225

They've drafted a total 87 NHL games (Exelby with 86) from the first 11 defensemen they drafted between 1999 and 2001.

Looks like they're obsessed with big defensemen.

 

[X-SHARKIE]

Take a look at some of the defensemen they've drafted...

2nd Round: Libor Ustrnul - 6'5, 230
4th Round: Brian Sipotz - 6'6, 213
7th Round: Matt Suderman - 6'3, 230
4th Round: Lane Manson - 6'8, 200
5th Round: Paul Flache - 6'6, 230
8th Round: Pauli Levokari - 6'6, 225
1st Round: Braydon Coburn - 6'5, 225
1st Round: Boris Valabik - 6'6, 225

They've drafted a total 87 NHL games (Exelby with 86) from the first 11 defensemen they drafted between 1999 and 2001.

Looks like they're obsessed with big defensemen.

None have worked out except Exelby and likely Coburn so far. Ustrnul is a huge but hard to watch when I go see him play in Chicago.

Yeah I guess afraid isn't a good word, but he'll definitley make you pay if you go in the high traffic areas, much like a Darian Hatcher.

 

[leafaholix*]

None have worked out except Exelby and likely Coburn so far. Ustrnul is a huge but hard to watch when I go see him play in Chicago.

Yeah I guess afraid isn't a good word, but he'll definitley make you pay if you go in the high traffic areas, much like a Darian Hatcher.

There are some teams that have absolutely no idea how to draft defensemen.

Atlanta and Dallas being the two organizations that come to mind.

Can you think of any others?

 

[Chaos]

There are some teams that have absolutely no idea how to draft defensemen.

Atlanta and Dallas being the two organizations that come to mind.

Can you think of any others?

Up until recently, the Stars havent even really tried drafting d-men. Since moving to Dallas, we have only drafted 3 defensmen in the 1st round(Jackman-Doing better in Pittsburgh, Vagner , and Fistric). Outside of Daley and Fransson, we rarely took defensmen even in the 2nd round. Thats why our system was bare in terms of defensemen. However that should change with guys like Fransson, Daley, Nickerson, Grossman, and Fistric in the system.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

There are some teams that have absolutely no idea how to draft defensemen.

Atlanta and Dallas being the two organizations that come to mind.

Can you think of any others?

It's not like Dallas often drafts defensemen early, you know. They have drafted only three defensemen in the first round. Richard Jackman drafted 5th in 96 seems to be doing well enough. Then they have drafted Vagner in 2002 (awful selection) and Fistric this year, who looks like he was drafted too early but still could make it.

One of the thing that made the system look a little empty may be that they drafted VERY few Ds in 2000 and 2001. But now it's looking better. They got a good pick in Daley 43rd overall in 2002. As well, this year they got Fistric, Fransson and Grossman. I liked what I saw of Grossman this year. Considering 2004 was labelled a so-so crop, I think he is a nice selection. I really like what I have seen of Fransson as well. Nickerson isn't the best thing since sliced bread but at 99th overall, not a bad selection, IMO.

So according to you, this qualifes as having absolutely no idea how to draft Ds?

 

[kmad]

It's not like Dallas often drafts defensemen early, you know. They have drafted only three defensemen in the first round. Richard Jackman drafted 5th in 96 seems to be doing well enough. Then they have drafted Vagner in 2002 (awful selection) and Fistric this year, who looks like he was drafted too early but still could make it.

One of the thing that made the system look a little empty may be that they drafted VERY few Ds in 2000 and 2001. But now it's looking better. They got a good pick in Daley 43rd overall in 2002. As well, this year they got Fistric, Fransson and Grossman. I liked what I saw of Grossman this year. Considering 2004 was labelled a so-so crop, I think he is a nice selection. I really like what I have seen of Fransson as well. Nickerson isn't the best thing since sliced bread but at 99th overall, not a bad selection, IMO.

So according to you, this qualifes as having absolutely no idea how to draft Ds?

To be fair to his point, it took Jackman two changes of scenery to find his niche and become useful. Dallas didn't gain anything from Jackman being drafted.

As well, Fistric will max out as a 3-4, and will likely make the NHL as a 5th or 6th. You can't really argue with the idea that that pick wasn't the best available selection.

Taking a defenseman who likely maxes out as a 3rd in the first round is pretty inefficient drafting, even in a weak draft pool like 2004.

 

[Chaos]

As well, Fistric will max out as a 3-4, and will likely make the NHL as a 5th or 6th. You can't really argue with the idea that that pick wasn't the best available selection.

Taking a defenseman who likely maxes out as a 3rd in the first round is pretty inefficient drafting, even in a weak draft pool like 2004.

Just as inefficient as drafting a forward who maxes out as a 3rd liner in the 1st round, right ? The Stars love taking the safe guy over the boom/bust player(passing on O'Sullivan, Hudler multiple times). Fistric will make the NHL as a bottom pairing guy at least. Thats better than probably at least 1/3 of the 1st round picks.

 

[leafaholix*]

It's not like Dallas often drafts defensemen early, you know. They have drafted only three defensemen in the first round. Richard Jackman drafted 5th in 96 seems to be doing well enough. Then they have drafted Vagner in 2002 (awful selection) and Fistric this year, who looks like he was drafted too early but still could make it.

One of the thing that made the system look a little empty may be that they drafted VERY few Ds in 2000 and 2001. But now it's looking better. They got a good pick in Daley 43rd overall in 2002. As well, this year they got Fistric, Fransson and Grossman. I liked what I saw of Grossman this year. Considering 2004 was labelled a so-so crop, I think he is a nice selection. I really like what I have seen of Fransson as well. Nickerson isn't the best thing since sliced bread but at 99th overall, not a bad selection, IMO.

So according to you, this qualifes as having absolutely no idea how to draft Ds?

Well, you're looking at prospects. I didn't take into account prospects, basically anyone drafted since 2002. But if you look at NHL defensemen and how well the Dallas Stars have done since their move to Texas...

Defensemen drafted: 18

Joel Kwiatkowski - 159 NHL games
Petr Buzek - 157 NHL games
Richard Jackman - 136 NHL games
Sergei Gusev - 89 NHL games
John Erskine - 89 NHL games
Jeff MacMillan - 4 NHL games
Rick Mrozik - 2 NHL games
Cory Peterson - 0 NHL games
Evgeny Petrochinin - 0 NHL games
Evgeny Tsybuk - 0 NHL games
Alexei Timkin - 0 NHL games
Dan Jancevski - 0 NHL games
Brian Sullivan - 0 NHL games
Mikhail Donika - 0 NHL games
Vadim Khomitsky - 0 NHL games
Jeff McKercher - 0 NHL games
Alexei Komarov - 0 NHL games
Michal Blazek - 0

Though I'm sure they've made changes to the scouting staff since 1993, they'd been one of the poorer drafting teams when it comes to defensemen... but their defense-first system allows them to compete.

 

[King'sPawn]

Taking a defenseman who likely maxes out as a 3rd in the first round is pretty inefficient drafting, even in a weak draft pool like 2004.

Especially if it's a weak draft pool, it's always good to have any picks, 1 through 9th, develop into any type of NHL player. There may be disappointements, but drafting players who develop into NHLers does not make an organization inefficient.

 

[kmad]

Just as inefficient as drafting a forward who maxes out as a 3rd liner in the 1st round, right ?

Kesler will be a third-liner by role, not by skill. He's got more vision, speed, and skating ability than most projected 2nd-liners. When Naslund retires, Linden gets captain. When Linden retires, Jovanovski will be captain. And when Jovanovski is traded/retires, Kesler will be captain. He's a very mature, smart player, and he was NHL-ready the second he was drafted.

 

[Chaos]

Well, you're looking at prospects. I didn't take into account prospects, basically anyone drafted since 2002. But if you look at NHL defensemen and how well the Dallas Stars have done since their move to Texas...

Defensemen drafted: 18

Joel Kwiatkowski - 159 NHL games
Petr Buzek - 157 NHL games
Richard Jackman - 136 NHL games
Sergei Gusev - 89 NHL games
John Erskine - 89 NHL games
Jeff MacMillan - 4 NHL games
Rick Mrozik - 2 NHL games
Cory Peterson - 0 NHL games
Evgeny Petrochinin - 0 NHL games
Evgeny Tsybuk - 0 NHL games
Alexei Timkin - 0 NHL games
Dan Jancevski - 0 NHL games
Brian Sullivan - 0 NHL games
Mikhail Donika - 0 NHL games
Vadim Khomitsky - 0 NHL games
Jeff McKercher - 0 NHL games
Alexei Komarov - 0 NHL games
Michal Blazek - 0

Though I'm sure they've made changes to the scouting staff since 1993, they'd been one of the poorer drafting teams when it comes to defensemen... but their defense-first system allows them to compete.

And out of all those players, how many were picked higher than say 50th overall? Point is, we dont generally pick defensemen high, although that has changed the past few years due to the lack of d-men in the system.

 

[Chaos]

Kesler will be a third-liner by role, not by skill. He's got more vision, speed, and skating ability than most projected 2nd-liners. When Naslund retires, Linden gets captain. When Linden retires, Jovanovski will be captain. And when Jovanovski is traded/retires, Kesler will be captain. He's a very mature, smart player, and he was NHL-ready the second he was drafted.

He's a 3rd liner, plain and simple. Good for him that he has good leadership abilities...always a plus in a player. He's in a similar boat as Fistric, as he will play in the NHL in some capacity. Difference is that Kesler was taken higher in a deep draft than Fistric was in a weak draft.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

To be fair to his point, it took Jackman two changes of scenery to find his niche and become useful. Dallas didn't gain anything from Jackman being drafted.

As well, Fistric will max out as a 3-4, and will likely make the NHL as a 5th or 6th. You can't really argue with the idea that that pick wasn't the best available selection.

Taking a defenseman who likely maxes out as a 3rd in the first round is pretty inefficient drafting, even in a weak draft pool like 2004.

I feel I know too little about Fistric to honestly praise or criticize the pick. From the people I know and respect, he seems to be pretty much what you described, but with intangibles as a player whom (to borrow an expression used here for Valabik) people hate to play against and might fear. They could have likely drafted Fransson and get Fistric later, I don't know. But with that order, they got themselves two Ds and Fransson has lots of skills as advertised. As I said, I really like what little I have seen of Grossman. Wouldn't qualify him as a steal yet but a very solid selection, IMO.

If Fistric develops as a 3rd pairing guy in such a draft, it's not that bad. Quite frankly, most 1st round drafted Ds usually have those expectations if you are realistic. 2nd and 3rd pairing guys, most of them.

It seems some people see Fistric as a relatively safe player as far as what he brings. I can't imagine he can be worse than Valabik to tell you the truth, who went 10th overall before many potential studs. But Dallas didn't seem to have missed out on many Ds by selecting Fistric. Or so it appears. Passing up on guys like Meszaros or even a (right now struggling but incredible upside) Thelen for Valabik/Fistric material is almost criminal, IMO. But Dallas didn't do that mistake.

Heck, Ladislav Smid was drafted 8th overall, I think, and is likely going to top as a #3 IMO. He does have upside, though.

I've never found Dallas' drafting fantastic but I do think it would be unfair to label them as Leafaholix just did.

 

[leafaholix*]

And out of all those players, how many were picked higher than say 50th overall? Point is, we dont generally pick defensemen high, although that has changed the past few years due to the lack of d-men in the system.

Does it really matter how high those picks were?

They had a success rate of 61% in drafting a defenseman that would never see NHL action in his career, not even 1 game. The guy's with 100+ games can thank time for that, as all of them (Buzek, Jackman, Kwiatkowski) have been minor leaguers up until now.

Do you know if they've made any changes to the staff over the last couple years?

 

[Vic Rattlehead*]

Does it really matter how high those picks were?

They had a success rate of 61% in drafting a defenseman that would never see NHL action in his career, not even 1 game. The guy's with 100+ games can thank time for that, as all of them (Buzek, Jackman, Kwiatkowski) have been minor leaguers up until now.

Do you know if they've made any changes to the staff over the last couple years?

No it doesn't. Boston drafted Aitken in the first round and look at him now. They drafted Alberts and Juricina in the 6th and 8th round respectively and they are well on their way to making the NHL as #4-5-6 d-men.

 

[Chaos]

Does it really matter how high those picks were?

They had a success rate of 61% in drafting a defenseman that would never see NHL action in his career, not even 1 game. The guy's with 100+ games can thank time for that, as all of them (Buzek, Jackman, Kwiatkowski) have been minor leaguers up until now.

Do you know if they've made any changes to the staff over the last couple years?

It most definately matters how high those picks were. Outside of Jackman, the highest pick any of those players was Erskine at 39th overall...and he's still got a shot at an NHL career. Then its Petr Buzek at 63, Sergei Gusev at 69, Jancevski at 66(with Jancevski and Erskine as the only 2nd rounders. Then Mrozik-6th round, Peterson-11th round, Petrochinin-6th round, Tsybuk-5th round, Kwiatkowski-8th round, McKercher-7th round, Komarov-8th round, MacMillan-7th round, Sullivan-8th round, Donika-9th round, Blazek-6th round. So out of all those players you listed, 1 1st rounder, 2 2nd rounders, 2 3rd rounders, and then a bunch of late rounders. Its hard to develop good defensemen when you arent spending high picks on them.

 

[leafaholix*]

I feel I know too little about Fistric to honestly praise or criticize the pick. From the people I know and respect, he seems to be pretty much what you described, but with intangibles as a player whom (to borrow an expression used here for Valabik) people hate to play against and might fear. They could have likely drafted Fransson and get Fistric later, I don't know. But with that order, they got themselves two Ds and Fransson has lots of skills as advertised. As I said, I really like what little I have seen of Grossman. Wouldn't qualify him as a steal yet but a very solid selection, IMO.

If Fistric develops as a 3rd pairing guy in such a draft, it's not that bad. Quite frankly, most 1st round drafted Ds usually have those expectations if you are realistic. 2nd and 3rd pairing guys, most of them.

It seems some people see Fistric as a relatively safe player as far as what he brings. I can't imagine he can be worse than Valabik to tell you the truth, who went 10th overall before many potential studs. But Dallas didn't seem to have missed out on many Ds by selecting Fistric. Or so it appears. Passing up on guys like Meszaros or even a (right now struggling but incredible upside) Thelen for Valabik/Fistric material is almost criminal, IMO. But Dallas didn't do that mistake.

Heck, Ladislav Smid was drafted 8th overall, I think, and is likely going to top as a #3 IMO. He does have upside, though.

I've never found Dallas' drafting fantastic but I do think it would be unfair to label them as Leafaholix just did.

You're commenting on very young players that aren't even out of junior hockey... to use those picks as evidence that Dallas' scouting on defensemen hasn't been bad isn't entirely accurate.

Unless they've made drastic changes, I can't see them being successful in drafting defensemen down the road.

Another point... 3 of their top 5 or 6 prospects on defense are from one region, Sweden. They must have a good scout located in Sweden.

 

[Chaos]

Another point... 3 of their top 5 or 6 prospects on defense are from one region, Sweden. They must have a good scout located in Sweden.

I believe the scout who does Finland is also partially responsible for Sweden(not 100% sure though). He's the same guy responsible for picks such as Kapanen, Miettinen, Jokinen.

 

[kmad]

He's a 3rd liner, plain and simple. Good for him that he has good leadership abilities...always a plus in a player. He's in a similar boat as Fistric, as he will play in the NHL in some capacity. Difference is that Kesler was taken higher in a deep draft than Fistric was in a weak draft.

John Madden, Mike Peca and Keith Primeau are third liners, and any GM would be ecstatic to have any one of them with the 23rd overall pick. I'm not saying Kesler will be as good as them. Maybe one day, but not for a while. I'm just saying third-liner isn't a derogatory term if you're drafted as a roleplayer.

 

[Chaos]

John Madden, Mike Peca and Keith Primeau are third liners, and any GM would be ecstatic to have any one of them with the 23rd overall pick. I'm not saying Kesler will be as good as them. Maybe one day, but not for a while. I'm just saying third-liner isn't a derogatory term if you're drafted as a roleplayer.

And I'm not using it as a derogatory term. Just pointing out that if you consider taking Fistric in the 1st round "inefficient", then you must consider Kesler the same. Your words, not mine.

 

[leafaholix*]

It most definately matters how high those picks were. Outside of Jackman, the highest pick any of those players was Erskine at 39th overall...and he's still got a shot at an NHL career. Then its Petr Buzek at 63, Sergei Gusev at 69, Jancevski at 66(with Jancevski and Erskine as the only 2nd rounders. Then Mrozik-6th round, Peterson-11th round, Petrochinin-6th round, Tsybuk-5th round, Kwiatkowski-8th round, McKercher-7th round, Komarov-8th round, MacMillan-7th round, Sullivan-8th round, Donika-9th round, Blazek-6th round. So out of all those players you liste, 1 1st rounder, 2 2nd rounders, 2 3rd rounders, and then a bunch of late rounders.

Haven't looked at all the other 29 teams, but I'm sure there are a good percentage of them that have picked up better defensemen late in the draft than Joel Kwiatkowski.

They still went 0 for 5 in those top 3 round picks.

Ric Jackman could barely hang onto a spot in the pressbox before he went to Pittsburgh and lit it up on the worst NHL team.

 

[Chaos]

Haven't looked at all the other 29 teams, but I'm sure there are a good percentage of them that have picked up better defensemen late in the draft than Joel Kwiatkowski.

They still went 0 for 5 in those top 3 round picks.

Ric Jackman could barely hang onto a spot in the pressbox before he went to Pittsburgh and lit it up on the worst NHL team.

Fair enough...but they just arent as bad as you make it seem. They simply haven't been trying to develop defensemen until recently, because we always had a core of guys like Hatcher, Zubov, Matvichuk, Ludwig, etc.