How the NHL CBA works

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John Flyers Fan

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Flames Draft Watcher said:
Well unless I'm mistaken they haven't removed Restricted Free Agency in it's entirety. So another team could make Brule an offer sheet. There's the leverage right there.

Your concerns about this improbable situation appear to be extremely unfounded from what I can see. It's a non-factor IMO.

Offers for RFA are still as puntative as before, there is a reason an offer hasn't been made on a RFA in a long time.

Chances are it will never happen just as I said, but the following could certainly happen

850, 850, 850, 850, 875, 900, 950, 975, 1 mill, 1.1 mill
 

nomorekids

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John Flyers Fan said:
Offers for RFA are still as puntative as before, there is a reason an offer hasn't been made on a RFA in a long time.

Chances are it will never happen just as I said, but the following could certainly happen

850, 850, 850, 850, 875, 900, 950, 975, 1 mill, 1.1 mill

as opposed to:

850, 1.5 million, 3 million, 7.5 million?

i'm sorry, but one appears more logical than the other.
 

NHLFanSince2020

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Phelan said:
So there's a chance that a hockey player who may not be a star, might make over 500 000$ a year for over 10 years?
That poor b****rd.
Is there a fund I can send assistance to?
My heart goes out to him and those like him.
 

Dr Love

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John Flyers Fan said:
Offers for RFA are still as puntative as before, there is a reason an offer hasn't been made on a RFA in a long time.

Chances are it will never happen just as I said, but the following could certainly happen

850, 850, 850, 850, 875, 900, 950, 975, 1 mill, 1.1 mill
While the owners proposal has more holes in it than a Jerry Bruckheimer produced plotline, I can in no way feel sorry for grown men playing sports making "only" $850,000 a year. The players have a point, but they're not going to get much sympathy for it.
 

John Flyers Fan

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Dr Love said:
While the owners proposal has more holes in it than a Jerry Bruckheimer produced plotline, I can in no way feel sorry for grown men playing sports making "only" $850,000 a year. The players have a point, but they're not going to get much sympathy for it.

I don't feel sorry for any of the players, but I'm also sure as hell not feeling any sympathy for Ed Snider, Cal Nichols or Jeremey Jacobs.
 

Dr Love

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John Flyers Fan said:
I don't feel sorry for any of the players, but I'm also sure as hell not feeling any sympathy for Ed Snider, Cal Nichols or Jeremey Jacobs.
Me neither. But if players are going to complain that they can only make 6 million at most instead of 9 million, well boo hoo. I don't particularly side with anyone, they're both acting like idiots, but the players are going to have a harder time convincing me.
 

Jobu

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Steve L said:
They are free to work in another country any time they wish.

So you are in favour of a select group of owners being able to singlehandedly determine in which country an individual is able to work? You like the free market, but only to a degree?

Fanciful stuff.
 

PecaFan

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Jobu said:
Fanciful stuff.

Indeed. The correct response to his post is "There are dozens of leagues around North America he can sign with, if he doesn't like the working conditions of the NHL".

John Flyers Fan said:
Gilbert Brule
He can't hold-out.

Simply not true, of course. He doesn't have to take whatever offer thrown at him. As I've said before, negotiation is not crawling to the owners in his rags, saying "please sir, can I have some more?"

A deadline doesn't change holding out at all. It simply raises the stakes, and makes the player risk something, instead of being entirely the owner. Here's the date, both sides damn well better consider the impact of playing hardball. Player, you ask for too much, and the owner will say "screw you, sit out the entire year". Similarly, Owner, offer too little, and the player will say "screw you", and you'll not have his services the entire year.

Any player who's genuinely worth what he's asking for will get his payday. You're assumption is that Brule will be a star player already at this point. If he's a star player, the team will *not* risk losing him for the entire year. There is *zero* chance of your scenario happening for a useful player.

The only player at risk of this is someone so useless, that they have zero bargaining impact by holding out. The kind of player that says "I'll hold out, and you'll really miss my 2 points a year, 400 PIM's and -37 plus/minus!".
 

John Flyers Fan

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PecaFan said:
Any player who's genuinely worth what he's asking for will get his payday. You're assumption is that Brule will be a star player already at this point. If he's a star player, the team will *not* risk losing him for the entire year. There is *zero* chance of your scenario happening for a useful player.

The only player at risk of this is someone so useless, that they have zero bargaining impact by holding out. The kind of player that says "I'll hold out, and you'll really miss my 2 points a year, 400 PIM's and -37 plus/minus!".


You mean some scrub like your name sake Mike Peca ???
 

me2

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He can hold out until the deadline to sign. He can then take the year off and go play in Europe.

"I want $1m and if I'm not signed by this cut off date I'm off to Europe, and I'll see you next july."

The team now has to decide if they want to risk going into the season with out him. If the team don't sign him they lose him for the entire season. It cuts both ways.
 

PecaFan

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John Flyers Fan said:
You mean some scrub like your name sake Mike Peca ???

You mean the guy who held out, and got exactly what he wanted?

More supporting evidence for me. Way to shoot holes in your own theory. :lol:
 

me2

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Jobu said:
Another uninformed owner crony.

Try reading it his post again, just a little more closely this time. :shakehead



In the event a Prior Club fails to make a Qualifying Offer as required in Section 10.2(a)(ii), the player shall immediately become an Unrestricted Free Agent and shall be completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with any Club, and any Club shall be completely free to negotiate and sign a Player Contract with any such player, without penalty or restriction or being subject to any Right of First Refusal, Draft Choice Compensation, or any other compensation or equalization obligation of any kind.
The Club may withdraw the Qualifying Offer any time after 12:01 a.m. New York time on August 1 and retain its rights under this Article.



Currently, a QO for someone making Iginla's salary must be 100% of his last salary. So, he could accept his QO or go to arbitration.

or Igilna could do neither. He could reject the QO and opt not to go to arbitration.

If Igilna refuses the QO, then the Flames can pull it on August 1 and retain his rights and offer him a contract for some pitiful amount.

But the owner's propose to make a QO 75% of a salary (and cap a contract length at 3 years), plus do away with arbitration at their election.


SALARY ARBITRATION

-- Entirely mutual (Players and Clubs have identical rights to request arbitration).

-- All Group 2 Players are eligible for Salary Arbitration. (Salary Arbitration is available with respect to all Players who have completed four (4) years in the Entry Level System and are not yet eligible for Unrestricted Free Agency.)

-- Non-requesting party has one-time "deferral right" on the following terms: (1) Player can "defer" Club's election of Salary Arbitration by accepting his Qualifying Offer; (2) Club can "defer" Player's election of Salary Arbitration by signing Player to a one-year contract at 105% of the Player's prior year's salary. This "deferral right" would not be exercisable by either a Player or Club with respect to a Player coming out of the Entry Level System.

-- Non-requesting party can elect term of 1, 2 or 3 years.

-- Both parties to Salary Arbitration proceeding have obligation to submit a list of up to five (5) Player comparables (exclusively from among the universe of contracts entered into by Group 2 Restricted Free Agents) prior to briefing, with each side having the ability to strike up to two (2) comparables from the other side's list.

-- Mutual "Walk-Away Rights" for Clubs and Players as follows: (1) Clubs can walk-away from Salary Arbitration Awards in return for which Players attain immediate free agency subject only to a Right to Match in favor of the Player's Old Club for contracts entered into for 90% or less than the value of the Award; (2) Players can walk-away from Salary Arbitration Awards and elect instead to accept a contract for 90% of their Qualifying Offer. "Walk-Away Rights" exercisable only by non-requesting party.

-- League has option to eliminate Salary Arbitration mechanism in its entirety at any time during the term of the Agreement by converting age of eligibility for Group 3 Free Agency to 28



So as regards Brule, after this his 4 year entry contract he can opt for arbitration as per the rules list in the NHL's proposal (*we all know the NHLPA will kill off the last clause, its a red herring*).


Players like Iginla may still have the leverage to hold-out until a couple of weeks before training camp, but others won't.

And that should mean what? That they aren't good enough? That they can easily be replaced by someone prepared to work for less money than they want? Wouldn't that be the scarey free-market setting a price.

Player "I'm worth $1m"
Team "I can replace you for $900K with a player just as good. The offer is $900K"
Player "Ha, just try it"
Team "OK....Done, Player Y starts tomorrow"
Player "Waaa, Waaa, Sob, Sob. Time to get a new agent I think."

Why should a team be able to maintain such a strangehold on players for 10+ years? It's crazy. Either give them arbitration, or give them free agency. You can't take away both.

Arbitration is symetric under the NHLs proposal, equal rights for both sides. The players can go to arbitration,. Where did you get the idea the NHL's proposal didn't contain it. I think you are a little confused.

-- League has option to eliminate Salary Arbitration mechanism in its entirety at any time during the term of the Agreement by converting age of eligibility for Group 3 Free Agency to 28.

Read between the lines. Its clearly a sweetener for the NHLPA to get a deal done (deal and we get rid of it, leave it in and risk it in the very unlikely impasse situtation). The NHLPA will choose which ever they want, arbitration or 28 year old UFA status. 99% of the time they would choose to keep arbitration over a younger UFA age. Instead of fighting over club arbitration rights the NHLPA is distracted to fight over this clause instead.

Bob (who knows its a red herring) will go back and beat his chest about how he saved arbitration and the players will cheer (*three cheers for Bob*).

I can not see NHL and NHLPA not negotiating over that clause and kicking it out of the final CBA. Its a complete red herring (or blue fin if you prefer).
 
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FrenchKheldar

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Maybe you forgot something

Other clubs can still make him sign an offer sheet, and under so low salaries, the compensations are not that high... If Brule is indeed producing, an offer of 1.8M$, which would more than double his salary, would only require the offering club to give up a first and a third round pick... If the offering team is in the top 10 in the league, I think it would gladly trade those picks for a young star like Brule...

So I don't think the real stars would have so low salaries. But I have no problem seeing 3rd and 4th getting paid between 800,000 and 1M$ per year, so I don't think this particular aspect of the offer is a problem.

Just my 2 cents...
 

jcab2000

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Jobu said:
Sigh. Do you people even read? He can't hold out, because he has to be signed 14 days prior to camp or he can't play.

And teams might not be willing to call their bluff on holding out and be more wililng to give them what they want.
 

txomisc

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Amazing. We have people whining about players not having any leverage in holding out. All it really does is even the playing field a bit. A players leverage in holding house is his skill, the difficulty of replacing him. If a players skill is not enough leverage in his negotiations then its pretty obvious that he isn't good enough to be holding out for what he wants.
 
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