How the mighty have fallen: Chicago and LA

BillNy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
477
198
Don't forget that Bryan Bickell was becoming that power forward the Hawks were missing after Byfuglien left, they gave him a nice contract and his body betrayed him. I would like to see what happens in an alternate reality where Bickell doesn't get MS. That series of events really derailed the Hawks.

i'm sorry but you're deluded if you think Bryan Bickell, who was 24 before he played a regular shift, had some extra level that would've kept the Blackhawks good. paying him to begin with was a disaster.
 
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Kiekura

Registered User
Oct 6, 2013
955
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The salary cap is the worst thing to happen to the league. You have to win Cups before core players get their big pay day. Once they do, there's no room to continue supporting them through free agency and trades.

No it is actually really good thing. Think a second how boring it would be if we actually had those huge dynasties. Maybe fun for that teams fans, but shit for others.

Chicago and Kings both have won many cups so is there really a reason to complain? Besides they have made mistakes with contracts too and now they pay for it.
 

Kaners Bald Spot

Registered User
Dec 6, 2011
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Kane County, IL
i'm sorry but you're deluded if you think Bryan Bickell, who was 24 before he played a regular shift, had some extra level that would've kept the Blackhawks good. paying him to begin with was a disaster.
Bickell was only kept down because of the insane depth the Hawks had before he was called up permanently. He was becoming an absolute beast in the 2013 lockout season. He was borderline Conn Smythe worthy that year. (Any of Kane, Crawford and Bickell could have won and nobody would have complained) The world will never know the answer to that.
 

PAZ

.
Jul 14, 2011
17,360
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BC
The salary cap is the worst thing to happen to the league. You have to win Cups before core players get their big pay day. Once they do, there's no room to continue supporting them through free agency and trades.

Even if Chicago wanted to blow it up, they can't trade any of their top players because other teams can't fit them under the cap. So now Chicago basically has to wait until Kane and Toews contracts are up to do a proper rebuild.

You realize without the salary cap the league would be very, very different and there's a chance Chicago wouldn't have won all their cups, right? Without the cap, Hossa would've stayed in Pittsburgh or Detroit. Certain teams would've stayed better longer, etc.

Let's put it this way, would you give away your three Stanley Cups to re-do those years between 2005-2018? That's a big gamble.
 

Osprey

Registered User
Feb 18, 2005
27,093
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Maybe teams need to rethink the wisdom of mortgaging the future at the trade deadline for fill pieces that they might not really need.

That's probably more true of Chicago than LA. LA was never a powerhouse in the regular season, even during the glory years, and was often in danger of missing the playoffs, so they were never in a position where you might've argued that they were so good that they didn't need help. They did need just about every rental player that they acquired. Even the one that probably did the most damage to their future was for a player (Lucic) that was needed, since Williams had just left and Kopitar was short a quality winger. That doesn't mean that they needed to pay that high price for a player one year from UFA, but the reason why Lombardi did that and took the gamble is that a player like him was sorely needed (and that was affirmed by him working out wonderfully for that one year).
 

Hattrick Kane

Registered User
Oct 8, 2018
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It’s time to let Q go and start the franchise anew. Look what getting a new coach did for Pittsburgh. I’m not saying they can win the cup this year, but I really believe they are bottom 5 team right now with the systems that are implemented.
 
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BillNy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
477
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Bickell was only kept down because of the insane depth the Hawks had before he was called up permanently. He was becoming an absolute beast in the 2013 lockout season. He was borderline Conn Smythe worthy that year. (Any of Kane, Crawford and Bickell could have won and nobody would have complained) The world will never know the answer to that.

In 2009-10, he had 31 points in 65 games. In the AHL. Please stop.
 

Kaners Bald Spot

Registered User
Dec 6, 2011
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Kane County, IL
That's probably more true of Chicago than LA. LA was never a powerhouse in the regular season, even during the glory years, and was often in danger of missing the playoffs, so they were never in a position where you might've argued that they were so good that they didn't need help. They did need just about every rental player that they acquired. Even the one that probably did the most damage to their future was for a player (Lucic) that was needed, since Williams had just left and Kopitar was short a quality winger. That doesn't mean that they needed to pay that high price for a player one year from UFA, but the reason why Lombardi did that and took the gamble is that a player like him was sorely needed (and that was affirmed by him working out wonderfully for that one year).
I won't complain about the Hawks trading their 1st for Vermette in 2015 because they probably don't win the cup without him that year, and I definitely won't complain about what they did in 2016 because that team was arguably more talented than the one that won the Cup the previous season, despite the 1st round loss. There was a ton of weird puck luck crap that happened to them in that series. If they didn't have bad luck, they would have had no luck at all.
 
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Kaners Bald Spot

Registered User
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In 2009-10, he had 31 points in 65 games. In the AHL. Please stop.
I'm not saying that he would have been a star or anything but the dude could have absolutely been a 40-50 point player playing with Toews and Hossa. He always had an underrated shot. How much Blackhawks hockey did you watch over that span? Quit looking at box scores.
 
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GordieHowsUrBreath

Nostalgia... STOP DWELLING ON THE PAST
Jun 16, 2016
2,044
588
Yeah, luck had everything to do with winning 41 playoff games, which included two Cups and a run to the Conference Finals in three consecutive years.

[mod]

so why did they stink before and after those cups?
 
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ColbyChaos

Marty Snoozeman's Father
Sep 27, 2017
6,140
6,374
Will County
What has happened to these recent powerhouse teams? It is truly baffling. They have both seemingly dropped off a cliff without their rosters changing all that much. They have lost some key secondary pieces but nobody major and their cores are still intact.

It makes you wonder if the NHL has become a fluke and we will never see dynasties like their were in the 80's and there are in other sports right now.

Chicago has been getting progressively worse, Lost in 1st round, swept in 1st round, missed playoffs. LA: missed playoffs, embarrassed in 1st round, missed playoffs, swept in 1st round by an expansion team.

It is inexcusable for two teams that have won multiple cups with the same players to just regress into bottom feeders. It is taking the enjoyment out of watching the NHL knowing that there are no truly great teams anymore.

Yea gonna have to call bull **** on this Byfuglien, Leddy, Ladd, Mike Richards, Slava Voynov, Teuvo, having two of their players develop conditions that stopped them from playing (Hossa and Bickell) were major losses.

Also OP they are older. Both teams' best players will all be 30 or above by the end of the season people get older and both clubs will need a few years to add to their prospect pools before likely making any serious noise again. Boston needed a few years to get better depth, so did teams like Pit and Washington from 2010-15. Spending to the cap along with constant trading of picks and prospects catch up with any team there is not a single team out there who was a heavy favorite for the cup an entire decade. The cap rising which lessens the impact on major deals and actually having picks in the opening rounds again could see both teams do more to fix their depth and add players with higher picks.
 

Ziggy Stardust

Master Debater
Jul 25, 2002
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so why did they stink before and after those cups?

They were a playoff team on the rise in 2010 and 2011. You’re clearly not familiar with the changes the team went through after 2014, with the off-ice problems and guys like Mitchell, Regehr, Greene and Williams moving on/retiring, not to mention the quick fixes Dean Lombardi tried to add didn’t work out for the long term.

The team depth took a massive hit and they became a one line team that relied heavily on its top players. When they were at their peak, the Kings were getting contribution from four lines and three defense pairs.

But you’re right, to win 41 playoff games in a three year stretch, all you need is luck.
 

KingsHockey24

Registered User
Aug 1, 2013
13,947
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2014 Western Conference Finals had to of been two of the strongest teams in the past 10 years to go at it.
 

ColbyChaos

Marty Snoozeman's Father
Sep 27, 2017
6,140
6,374
Will County
i've been telling you guys forever that the kings are proof you can get lucky twice

the hawks were elite at a time when the whole league was down, timing is everything in life, now the league is as strong as ever and they are just another team

Being either the best or one of the best possession teams during a 3 year stretch and winning games from that means they were lucky? Making 3 straight conference finals means their lucky? Boy its time to log out.
 

ColbyChaos

Marty Snoozeman's Father
Sep 27, 2017
6,140
6,374
Will County
Who cares? They have five Cups between them in the last ten years! There are 26 teams (minus Penguins and Capitals) that would trade with them now.

Their star players are simply not playing as well as they can + crappy coach in LA. Moving along, nothing to see here.

If you dont trade 1 cup for 2 or possibly even 3 I would seriously question your sanity
 

ColbyChaos

Marty Snoozeman's Father
Sep 27, 2017
6,140
6,374
Will County
so why did they stink before and after those cups?

Team A 2 players that scored more than 50 pts, no elite goalie, no elite Dman, 2 great centers. 20th ranked PP, 8th ranked PK, Goal differential +25


vs

Team B 3 players with 50 0r more points, elite goaltending, elite Dman 1 great centers then 2 good ones. 17th ranked PP, 4th ranked PK, Goal differential +18

By all accounts if any team is to be called lucky you may be surprised at which team would deserve that moniker.
 

Raccoon Jesus

Todd McLellan is an inside agent
Oct 30, 2008
61,490
60,931
I.E.
People are just flat out neglecting that 5 years is an eternity in sports. That takes players from their primes to past, for one thing. But also don't forget it's not mismanagement to have guys just flat out age/retire. Williams walked. Mitchell walked, then retired. Regehr retired. Greene retired. The Richards saga. The Voynov saga. You can't manage your way out of those things if the way you managed yourself in is trading high picks and prospects to stay competitive.

Now they're older, and guys with tons of mileage get hurt. Kopitar was a friggin ironman, played the previous season with a nagging injury. Look at how many games DOughty has played without missing more than a handful of games (knock on wood since he's getting older). Our explosive goalie is towards his mid-30s, what do you think's gonna happen when you load them all with year round hockey? Father time comes for everyone.

I know the popular narrative around here is some moneyball 'trade em too early' bullshit that armchair GMs can pull off in their sleep but when you've won twice in three years with a WCF in between (lost only to the OTHER woodchipper team in the period) you go for it and say so long, future. The road to the cup is littered with teams who just tried to slap together as many high picks as possible without a vision. I love how many posters seem to suggest GMs are just dumb at putting together dynasties yet are waiting for their first cup with the groups they have. Think about how hard it is to win even with a "Cup favorite" team, you need everything to break right on top of being good. Doing it twice or more in a short period of time? Celebrate that. It's not likely to happen to your team again for 50 years or more.
 

LAKings88

First round fodder
Dec 4, 2006
13,770
5,982
here or there
LA has had a lot of change since 2014. Starting with that craptastic summer after the cup.

LA has made it to the playoffs 2/4 years since.

Guess the teams they lost to in the first round both years. Yep, Western Conference Finalist.

Tough league. Can’t win every year.

Gotta pay your young stars eventually.
 

Anisimovs AK

Registered User
Apr 14, 2006
3,325
1,401
Columbus, OH
The salary cap is the worst thing to happen to the league. You have to win Cups before core players get their big pay day. Once they do, there's no room to continue supporting them through free agency and trades.

Even if Chicago wanted to blow it up, they can't trade any of their top players because other teams can't fit them under the cap. So now Chicago basically has to wait until Kane and Toews contracts are up to do a proper rebuild.
Yeah having to be smart and frugal with contracts and having to properly develop and cultivate picks and prospects is the worst thing to ever happen to the league.

You must be a fan of one of these teams
 

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