How the mighty have fallen: Chicago and LA

Discussion in 'National Hockey League Talk' started by Phasenet, Nov 4, 2018.

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  1. Phasenet

    Phasenet Registered User

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    What has happened to these recent powerhouse teams? It is truly baffling. They have both seemingly dropped off a cliff without their rosters changing all that much. They have lost some key secondary pieces but nobody major and their cores are still intact.

    It makes you wonder if the NHL has become a fluke and we will never see dynasties like their were in the 80's and there are in other sports right now.

    Chicago has been getting progressively worse, Lost in 1st round, swept in 1st round, missed playoffs. LA: missed playoffs, embarrassed in 1st round, missed playoffs, swept in 1st round by an expansion team.

    It is inexcusable for two teams that have won multiple cups with the same players to just regress into bottom feeders. It is taking the enjoyment out of watching the NHL knowing that there are no truly great teams anymore.
     
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  2. KPower

    KPower Registered User

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    Salary cap killed the Hawks.
     
  3. mymerlincat

    mymerlincat Moderator

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    Combination of core players getting older, not having good young talent due to trading away good young players and picks, and the vets getting their massive paydays and cups thus not having the same motivation they did before.
     
  4. Claypool

    Claypool Registered User

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    The salary cap is the worst thing to happen to the league. You have to win Cups before core players get their big pay day. Once they do, there's no room to continue supporting them through free agency and trades.

    Even if Chicago wanted to blow it up, they can't trade any of their top players because other teams can't fit them under the cap. So now Chicago basically has to wait until Kane and Toews contracts are up to do a proper rebuild.
     
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  5. Mean Gene

    Mean Gene Haters gonna hate

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    They’re on the other side of the mountain.
     
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  6. Emerz

    Emerz #1 PLD Fanboy

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    The ole "oh we won the cup, gotta overpay our entire roster now", saw it happen to my Bruins and same thing with those teams.

    Wilson's contract being another prime example.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
  7. TLEHMANN

    TLEHMANN Party like Kaner

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    Hawks won 2 cups and then had to pay their two best players like right after. Teams like Tampa have the benefit of not winning it yet and being so close. A lot easier to get guys to buy in when you haven't won anything yet. Bowman has also made some huge mistakes like the Seabrook contract.
     
  8. Pi

    Pi Registered User

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    The mighty have 5 cups between them though...I'd much rather be that than a team like San Jose or Tampa who are always really good but not quite good enough to win it all.

    The salary cap makes it impossible for any team to stay on top forever. Teams will always go through ups and downs.

    Teams like the Kings/Hawks etc trade assets, players etc to gain any advantage they can to win. Sooner or later those traded picks and players catches up and you lose depth. They still have great players but not enough depth to carry them.
     
  9. Goldeneye

    Goldeneye Winnipeg Jets

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    What do you mean rosters not changing all that much? This Hawks team is so much worse, terrible bottom 6 and meh defense.

    Also the Kings used to have players like Richards, Gaborik, Williams, Regehr and Mitchell when they were still good to fill those spots around the core guys.

    Just because you see some of the same names on these teams today doesn’t mean they haven’t changed a lot. And of course many of those names have also declined as players so that has it's effect too.
     
  10. Colorado Mackinnons

    Colorado Mackinnons Lets go Aves?

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    Don't see why this is so baffling, the league progresses, that's how these things work. Bad teams get better eventually and great teams have to pay their players, and you can't sustain success forever in 99% of cases.
     
  11. winnipegger

    winnipegger Registered User

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    Hawks lost Hossa (that is huge).Toews isn't or hasn't recently been an elite #1C. Once vaunted defence now has a diminished Keith, a VERY diminished Seabrook and minus Hjalmarsson, Oduya. It really is a different team than 2010- 2015.

    Kings have just seen the NHL change from the style of play they were good at. There's not enough speed and not enough skill for them and Quick isn't elite anymore.
     
  12. Tracer Bullet

    Tracer Bullet Doctorate Degree in Saskatchewan Science

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    The salary cap and age. No big mystery.
     
    Last edited by moderator SniperHF: Nov 4, 2018
  13. StreetHawk

    StreetHawk Registered User

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    How many TDL after their first cup runs did these teams make moves at the tdl?

    Hawks got Ladd in 2016 and gave up their 1st rounder. LA also gave theirs up to get Sekeras in 2015. You can only make so many high end TDL deals before they catch up to you. One thing to send a 2nd or 3rd to pick up depth D or a PK or checking forward. But when you go for a top 4 D or someone to play in the top 6 F you pay a larger price and pay for it down the road a few years later.

    Now they lack depth and rely on their core guys to do more as they get a bit older.
     
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  14. XeroKaos

    XeroKaos Registered User

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    I don't see how its baffling at all, they had fantastic runs, with numerous cups each. They both won more within a 5 year span than most franchises could expect to win in 100 years. They capitalized on their windows and the primes of their core players. The salary cap also plays a significant roll as well. Nothing lasts forever, the new dynasty in the NHL can last anywhere from 5-8 years, that seems to be the window.
     
  15. Armourboy

    Armourboy Registered User

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    I'm not sure why it is so surprising to you, as soon as those contracts were signed people started talking about how it was going to hamstring them and cause problems. That was years ago as well, and you couple it with a couple of other bad contracts and trades and it gets worse.

    I'm gonna guess you find very few that are shocked it happened.
     
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  16. Filthy Dangles

    Filthy Dangles Registered User

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    Salary cap killed and dismembered the Blackhawks
     
  17. Gil Gunderson

    Gil Gunderson Registered User

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    The NHL didn’t force the Hawks to give Toews a 10.5 mil contract.
     
  18. AlphaBravo

    AlphaBravo Registered User

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    The Kings lost a lot of their leadership core (Richards, Michell, Regher, Greene, Stoll), and their current elite players (Doughty, Kopitar) do not have the same intangible leadership abilities to guide this team to another cup. Age of the roster, and trading away draft picks for an extra edge also put the Kings behind because we couldn't draft top talent to replenish the roster with skill.

    I disagree that our prior Sutter style of play no longer works in today's NHL. I would rather trade away the entire team and bring back Sutter (if he didn't retire), and have Sutter lead a different squad. Sutter's style is superior, but it only works if the team buys in. The problem is that players can only play his style for a few years before it takes a toll on the players and they give up.

    The Kings team from 2012-2014 did not have the fastest "foot speed" but the team played like clockwork and fast pace. That style would work in today's NHL as well.
     
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  19. GordieHowsUrBreath

    GordieHowsUrBreath Nostalgia... STOP DWELLING ON THE PAST

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    i've been telling you guys forever that the kings are proof you can get lucky twice

    the hawks were elite at a time when the whole league was down, timing is everything in life, now the league is as strong as ever and they are just another team
     
  20. Kaners Bald Spot

    Kaners Bald Spot Registered User

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    Both teams were able to maneuver around the salary cap through back diving contracts and a rapidly increasing cap.
    Four things happened that contributed to their collapse:
    1. The backdiving contracts were eliminated, forcing the Hawks and Kings to spend 21 and 22M on Kane/Toews and Kopitar/Doughty respectively. Toews absolutely would have received a 10-11M contract had he hit the open market after 2015.
    2. Because of 1, the salary cap is now working as originally intended. They're losing young talent because they can't afford it under the cap.
    3. Exacerbating 2, are the massive raises from the ELC to second contracts that good young players are getting. You have to have at least 5M of cap space per good young player coming off an ELC. You're paying 6-9M for second contracts now. It eats up cap space really quickly.
    4. The natural aging curve is getting some of both teams' best players.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
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  21. JianYang

    JianYang Registered User

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    These clubs had a great run and made the most of their potential.

    That 09-10 Hawks team was especially fun to watch. So many weapons, and being fairly young, they had that youthful exuberance which just makes it better.

    They are the most memorable team for me in the last decade for watching as a non fan.
     
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  22. KingsHockey24

    KingsHockey24 Registered User

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    It was fun watching the Kings steam roll through everyone in 2012 then battle to win the Cup in 2014.
     
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  23. OvermanKingGainer

    OvermanKingGainer #FreeBennett #CurseofTheSpulll

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    If I was building a hockey line, it would be Saad-Toews-Hossa

    Guess who was allergic to clothes after his salary takehome became 1M/yr
     
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  24. Blackhawkswincup

    Blackhawkswincup RIP Fugu

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    For Hawks its combination of cap causing a constant drain of talent from organization and our core getting older

    Hawks especially have struggled to develop young defenders. It looks like it may be about to change (Joker looks good and we have some kids in pipeline) but Stan Bowman has never drafted a top 4 caliber defender and thus as our defending core aged we never had young guys to come in and become the "Next Generation". Leddy was really only young defender to have success and he was acquired via trade not drafted by Hawks and still had too many issues with Hawks and became too costly to retain

    If you look at what was the established "Core" of Hawks dynasty this is what you have

    Hossa = Retired
    Sharp = Retired
    Hjalmarsson = Traded
    Seabrook = Declining and now 33 yrs old
    Keith = Slow decline and now 35 yrs old
    Crawford = Soon to be 34 yrs old and had concussion issue last season
    Toews = Not what he once was and is 30 yrs old
    Kane = Still pretty awesome but will turn 30 yrs old this month

    Also if you look at the amount of games they have logged its a lot of hockey

    Seabrook playing in his 14th NHL season = 1,019 regular season games + 123 playoff games
    Keith playing in his 14th NHL season = 1,010 regular season games + 126 playoff games
    Crawford playing in his 9th full NHL season (Appeared games 3 other years) = 416 regular season games + 87 playoff games
    Toews playing in his 12th NHL season = 806 regular season games + 128 playoff games
    Kane playing in his 12th NHL season = 836 regular season games + 127 playoff games

    Crawford + Keith + Seabrook all made NHL debuts in 2005-2006 season
    Kane + Toews debuted in 2007-2008 season

    Seabrook and Keith are in top 5 for games played in franchise history

    Seabrook is 3rd behind only Mikita and Hull while Keith is 5th and will pass Nesterenko to move into 4th in 4 games
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
  25. Ainec

    Ainec Banned

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    chicago got unlucky with crawford and made a dumb trade + cap issues. They are drafting well

    lak is in love with big slow depth guys with no playmaking and little offense
     
  26. KCC

    KCC Registered User

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    The kings have 8 players still on the team from when they won their cups don't they? That explains everything you need to know about them.
     

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