How much to extend D-Cat and Strome?

AmericanDream

Thank you Elon!
Oct 24, 2005
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Not just Boeser. You see every year guys who have majorly improved their skating. It’s foolish to think a 21 and 20 year olds skating aren’t going to improve in a top training facility.
absolutely. look at Jason Robertson-the kid in the OHL/Dallas 2nd round pick. Literally the top scorer in the OHL the past few years but went in the 2nd round because his skating was so bad. He spent an entire year busting his ass on skating, using different power skating coaches as well as strength and conditioning coaches (which is the key add as well) and his skating has improved so much now in just a years time that if you did a redraft he likely goes top 15. He still can always improve on his skating and he will never ever be a McDavid out there, but at least he has closed the gap from how far back he was to just being an average pro skater which is all you really need to maintain.
 

BK

"Goalie Apologist"
Feb 8, 2011
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absolutely. look at Jason Robertson-the kid in the OHL/Dallas 2nd round pick. Literally the top scorer in the OHL the past few years but went in the 2nd round because his skating was so bad. He spent an entire year busting his ass on skating, using different power skating coaches as well as strength and conditioning coaches (which is the key add as well) and his skating has improved so much now in just a years time that if you did a redraft he likely goes top 15. He still can always improve on his skating and he will never ever be a McDavid out there, but at least he has closed the gap from how far back he was to just being an average pro skater which is all you really need to maintain.

Big jumps in skating are not the norm though. If it was really easy to improve skating everyone would do it.
 
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Joe Scaduto

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Jun 24, 2018
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Bridge both at 6.5 million each for Debrincat and Strome on a five to six year deal..The money needs to be allocated to resign prospects .I dont think the blackhawks could afford to sign over 10 million dollar free agent .
 

RememberTheRoar

“I’m not as worried about the 5-on-5 scoring.”
Oct 21, 2015
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There are 82 games. 41 of the games are on the road. Half of the players states / local tax rate is an aggregate of the taxes played in those cities. 41 of the home games are taxed at the home rate. Hence, there is a good sized impact, but not as big as you'd think. This also includes playoff shares.

That said, endorsement deals will be taxed at your home rate. That matters.

As for playing time in Canada ... we all kmow the issues there including currency translation. If I'm not mistaken, players now ask to be paid in US dollars.

That's not even close to answering the question I asked, I appreciate you attempting though. However, I think that just adds to the confusion.
 

x Tame Impala

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@ColdSteel2 and @RememberTheRoar There are simply too many different variables between cities, let alone countries, to make it completely fair...

Cost of Living Comparison Between Toronto, Canada And Tampa, FL, United States

...Toronto is also a world class city, Tampa is not (no offense). Miami is pretty awesome, especially if you’re filthy rich, but it’s nearly 300 miles away from Tampa. So there are opportunity costs to living in Tampa over Toronto as well. So yeah, you’re hypothetically saving more on income taxes but you don’t get to live in and experience one of the best cities on the planet.

If you’re going to level the field in regards to income tax, where does the line get drawn? You have property taxes, social security, cost of living, quality of life, etc...all of those things vary from team to team and players are free to use that info as they like when it comes to contract negotiations and evaluating what’s best for them.

Also a few quickies...

-Tampa is not the only hockey town with no/lower income taxes, it’s not a benefit exclusive to the Lightning and is literally only being brought up because Stamkos teased going to Toronto

-Lightning players are signing more team friendly deals in part due to lower income taxes, but that’s absolutely not the only reason and it’s probably not even a major consideration. Yzerman has all these guys buying into winning a Cup and Tampa has been one of the best teams in the league for years now. The players know that and they want to be a part of it, even at the cost of a few million dollars

-rich people don’t pay taxes. It’s not as simple a comparison as $10m in Tampa vs $10m in Toronto. I’m not even close to a tax expert but there are so many ways around high tax rates, it’s ridiculous.

Bottom line, guys are not NOT signing in Toronto (or New York x2, New Jersey, LA, San Jose, Anaheim, Minnesota, Washington DC all which have the highest income tax rates in the US) because of income taxes. It’s a stupid thing to wine about and it comes off incrrrrrredibly petty.

And bottom bottom line, Toronto just paid out contracts to Tavares and Matthews where 96% of their money was paid out in signing bonuses, saving those guys tens of millions. That’s absolutely not something every team can do. Life isn’t fair, not all hockey markets are either
 

Kaners Bald Spot

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Dec 6, 2011
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I dont necessarily disagree, I just want a bigger sample before going all in on the guy with a big contract.
I wasn't arguing to sign him to a big contract now, it was more of if the Hawks can get him on a 2-3 year 4-5 M bridge now they should do it and not think twice. It is more about whether or not the guy we've seen over the last 6 weeks is who he is. If so, he will cost mucho dinero next summer.
 
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RememberTheRoar

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@ColdSteel2 and @RememberTheRoar There are simply too many different variables between cities, let alone countries, to make it completely fair...

Cost of Living Comparison Between Toronto, Canada And Tampa, FL, United States

...Toronto is also a world class city, Tampa is not (no offense). Miami is pretty awesome, especially if you’re filthy rich, but it’s nearly 300 miles away from Tampa. So there are opportunity costs to living in Tampa over Toronto as well. So yeah, you’re hypothetically saving more on income taxes but you don’t get to live in and experience one of the best cities on the planet.

If you’re going to level the field in regards to income tax, where does the line get drawn? You have property taxes, social security, cost of living, quality of life, etc...all of those things vary from team to team and players are free to use that info as they like when it comes to contract negotiations and evaluating what’s best for them.

Also a few quickies...

-Tampa is not the only hockey town with no/lower income taxes, it’s not a benefit exclusive to the Lightning and is literally only being brought up because Stamkos teased going to Toronto

-Lightning players are signing more team friendly deals in part due to lower income taxes, but that’s absolutely not the only reason and it’s probably not even a major consideration. Yzerman has all these guys buying into winning a Cup and Tampa has been one of the best teams in the league for years now. The players know that and they want to be a part of it, even at the cost of a few million dollars

-rich people don’t pay taxes. It’s not as simple a comparison as $10m in Tampa vs $10m in Toronto. I’m not even close to a tax expert but there are so many ways around high tax rates, it’s ridiculous.

Bottom line, guys are not NOT signing in Toronto (or New York x2, New Jersey, LA, San Jose, Anaheim, Minnesota, Washington DC all which have the highest income tax rates in the US) because of income taxes. It’s a stupid thing to wine about and it comes off incrrrrrredibly petty.

And bottom bottom line, Toronto just paid out contracts to Tavares and Matthews where 96% of their money was paid out in signing bonuses, saving those guys tens of millions. That’s absolutely not something every team can do. Life isn’t fair, not all hockey markets are either

So you don't know the take home difference between playing half your games in Florida vs. playing half you games in Illinois?
 

ColdSteel2

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Aug 27, 2010
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@ColdSteel2 and @RememberTheRoar There are simply too many different variables between cities, let alone countries, to make it completely fair...

Cost of Living Comparison Between Toronto, Canada And Tampa, FL, United States

...Toronto is also a world class city, Tampa is not (no offense). Miami is pretty awesome, especially if you’re filthy rich, but it’s nearly 300 miles away from Tampa. So there are opportunity costs to living in Tampa over Toronto as well. So yeah, you’re hypothetically saving more on income taxes but you don’t get to live in and experience one of the best cities on the planet.

If you’re going to level the field in regards to income tax, where does the line get drawn? You have property taxes, social security, cost of living, quality of life, etc...all of those things vary from team to team and players are free to use that info as they like when it comes to contract negotiations and evaluating what’s best for them.

Also a few quickies...

-Tampa is not the only hockey town with no/lower income taxes, it’s not a benefit exclusive to the Lightning and is literally only being brought up because Stamkos teased going to Toronto

-Lightning players are signing more team friendly deals in part due to lower income taxes, but that’s absolutely not the only reason and it’s probably not even a major consideration. Yzerman has all these guys buying into winning a Cup and Tampa has been one of the best teams in the league for years now. The players know that and they want to be a part of it, even at the cost of a few million dollars

-rich people don’t pay taxes. It’s not as simple a comparison as $10m in Tampa vs $10m in Toronto. I’m not even close to a tax expert but there are so many ways around high tax rates, it’s ridiculous.

Bottom line, guys are not NOT signing in Toronto (or New York x2, New Jersey, LA, San Jose, Anaheim, Minnesota, Washington DC all which have the highest income tax rates in the US) because of income taxes. It’s a stupid thing to wine about and it comes off incrrrrrredibly petty.

And bottom bottom line, Toronto just paid out contracts to Tavares and Matthews where 96% of their money was paid out in signing bonuses, saving those guys tens of millions. That’s absolutely not something every team can do. Life isn’t fair, not all hockey markets are either

Thanks, sounds like a non-issue and an excuse.

I’ve always thought the real reason players prefer to play in small markets over Canada is the fact that many Canadian fans are deranged when it comes to their fandom. These guys don’t want paparazzi chasing them and the constant barrage of media attention they get up North. Sounds like this tax thing is them looking for a scapegoat for creating an unwelcoming environment. Could be wrong, just IMO.
 
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AmericanDream

Thank you Elon!
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Big jumps in skating are not the norm though. If it was really easy to improve skating everyone would do it.
I never said it was the norm, those that reach out and put in the time and effort can improve their skating, hundreds of examples of it for NHL players. Top speed is something that really can't be changed, but edge work, balance, quickness, stride, acceleration are all things that can be improved with skating coaches and working on/developing different specific muscles in weight training.
 
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RememberTheRoar

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Illinois income tax rate is 4.95%, Florida is 0%. If that’s all you got from my post then I’m wasting my time

I'm asking what the take home pay difference is.

You're saying it's not an issue, and I am curious about the numbers you're using to make that claim.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm assuming you have a better understanding of it than I do if you're definitively saying it's not a big issue.
 

ChiHawks10

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I'm asking what the take home pay difference is.

You're saying it's not an issue, and I am curious about the numbers you're using to make that claim.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm assuming you have a better understanding of it than I do if you're definitively saying it's not a big issue.

This is hard to determine because of how professional athletes have their money taxed, as well as all the loopholes for the rich. Nevermind the fact that everyone makes different amounts of money, and in different forms. Some with full base salaries, some with signing bonuses, some with performance bonuses, etc. None of these guys are hurting based on the taxes they're paying, and the "tax-free" bonus of playing somewhere like Florida is basically negligible. Most people just want to point to it as an excuse as to why their team didn't have a chance landing so and so player... At least IMO.
 
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RememberTheRoar

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This is hard to determine because of how professional athletes have their money taxed, as well as all the loopholes for the rich. None of these guys are hurting based on the taxes they're paying, and the "tax-free" bonus of playing somewhere like Florida is basically negligible. Most people just want to point to it as an excuse as to why their team didn't have a chance landing so and so player... At least IMO.

I started this question off legitimately curious about the take home difference, but as this goes on and people keep indirectly saying they don't know the answer, it has become pretty clear the pushback on the income tax idea is not rooted in fact.

If you don't know the difference in how much more money a player gets by playing 50% of games in Florida vs. playing 50% of games in Illinois, how can someone possibly say the tax benefit is small and claim there's no legitimate argument?

In the end, it may be a small to insignificant difference. But it seems pretty clear nobody here has the knowledge to prove that, and we're just operating off of "feel facts"
 

ChiHawks10

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I started this question off legitimately curious about the take home difference, but as this goes on and people keep indirectly saying they don't know the answer, it has become pretty clear the pushback on the income tax idea is not rooted in fact.

If you don't know the difference in how much more money a player gets by playing 50% of games in Florida vs. playing 50% of games in Illinois, how can someone possibly say the tax benefit is small and claim there's no legitimate argument?

In the end, it may be a small to insignificant difference. But it seems pretty clear nobody here has the knowledge to prove that, and we're just operating off of "feel facts"

It's not hard to look up this info.

Player X - 10m per year all salary - plays in Florida
Player Y - 10m per year all salary - plays in Chicago

Player X
Salary - 10,000,000
Fed Income Tax - 3,661,250
SS - 7,886
Medicare - 145,000

Total Tax: 3,814,136
Net Pay: 6,097,664

Player Y
Salary - 10,000,000
Fed Income Tax - 3,661,250
State Income Tax - 494,895
Social Security - 7,886
Medicare - 145,000

Total Tax: 4,309.031
Net Pay: 5,602,769

It's a difference of 500k for two people making the same amount at $10m and working their entire year in each corresponding state.
With it only being half, the difference will be even less. Like I said, negligible for these guys...

You have to take into account that the contracts are structured differently, as far as performance bonuses, signing bonuses, and base salary as well. Those factors change things for each individual, as far as taxes go. This is purely with a $10m/year income(base salary), also, not factoring in what % of each could be bonuses and such.
 
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Blue Liner

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@ColdSteel2 and @RememberTheRoar There are simply too many different variables between cities, let alone countries, to make it completely fair...

Cost of Living Comparison Between Toronto, Canada And Tampa, FL, United States

...Toronto is also a world class city, Tampa is not (no offense). Miami is pretty awesome, especially if you’re filthy rich, but it’s nearly 300 miles away from Tampa. So there are opportunity costs to living in Tampa over Toronto as well. So yeah, you’re hypothetically saving more on income taxes but you don’t get to live in and experience one of the best cities on the planet.

If you’re going to level the field in regards to income tax, where does the line get drawn? You have property taxes, social security, cost of living, quality of life, etc...all of those things vary from team to team and players are free to use that info as they like when it comes to contract negotiations and evaluating what’s best for them.

Also a few quickies...

-Tampa is not the only hockey town with no/lower income taxes, it’s not a benefit exclusive to the Lightning and is literally only being brought up because Stamkos teased going to Toronto

-Lightning players are signing more team friendly deals in part due to lower income taxes, but that’s absolutely not the only reason and it’s probably not even a major consideration. Yzerman has all these guys buying into winning a Cup and Tampa has been one of the best teams in the league for years now. The players know that and they want to be a part of it, even at the cost of a few million dollars

-rich people don’t pay taxes. It’s not as simple a comparison as $10m in Tampa vs $10m in Toronto. I’m not even close to a tax expert but there are so many ways around high tax rates, it’s ridiculous.

Bottom line, guys are not NOT signing in Toronto (or New York x2, New Jersey, LA, San Jose, Anaheim, Minnesota, Washington DC all which have the highest income tax rates in the US) because of income taxes. It’s a stupid thing to wine about and it comes off incrrrrrredibly petty.

And bottom bottom line, Toronto just paid out contracts to Tavares and Matthews where 96% of their money was paid out in signing bonuses, saving those guys tens of millions. That’s absolutely not something every team can do. Life isn’t fair, not all hockey markets are either

Players also like living on the coast in a warm climate. Tampa isn't a world class city, but especially if you have money, the Tampa/Clearwater area is pretty amazing, especially during the cold months elsewhere. Not remotely arguing with you, either, the cities of Tampa and Toronto are very different, but there's a lifestyle factor Tampa has that many other places don't and it certainly doesn't hurt their chances in retaining guys.

To the overall point, the income tax thing is overblown and not nearly the factor many make it out to be.
 

RememberTheRoar

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It's not hard to look up this info.

Player X - 10m per year all salary - plays in Florida
Player Y - 10m per year all salary - plays in Chicago

Player X
Salary - 10,000,000
Fed Income Tax - 3,661,250
SS - 7,886
Medicare - 145,000

Total Tax: 3,814,136
Net Pay: 6,097,664

Player Y
Salary - 10,000,000
Fed Income Tax - 3,661,250
State Income Tax - 494,895
Social Security - 7,886
Medicare - 145,000

Total Tax: 4,309.031
Net Pay: 5,602769

It's a difference of 500k for two people making the same amount at $10m and working their entire year in each corresponding state.
With it only being half, the difference will be even less. Like I said, negligible for these guys...


Starting with this would've avoided a lot of confusion for people. Not everyone understands how to break down taxes.

Just because something is easy for you to look up certainly doesn't mean everyone knows how to use that information correctly.
 

ColdSteel2

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Aug 27, 2010
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Players also like living on the coast in a warm climate. Tampa isn't a world class city, but especially if you have money, the Tampa/Clearwater area is pretty amazing, especially during the cold months elsewhere. Not remotely arguing with you, either, the cities of Tampa and Toronto are very different, but there's a lifestyle factor Tampa has that many other places don't and it certainly doesn't hurt their chances in retaining guys.

To the overall point, the income tax thing is overblown and not nearly the factor many make it out to be.

Yeah, I’d take the ocean and the weather over everything else any day. It’s a damn shame it’s hard to find a good paying job down there, at least compared to the big cities in the North. Even despite that, everyone’s so cheerful down there, has to be the sunshine and weather IMO.
 
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Blue Liner

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Yeah, I’d take the ocean and the weather over everything else any day. It’s a damn shame it’s hard to find a good paying job down there, at least compared to the big cities in the North. Even despite that, everyone’s so cheerful down there, has to be the sunshine and weather IMO.

And in Tampa's case it's actually a good hockey town. They have a major following down there and the youth and grassroots programs are really developing and growing, high schools are starting teams, and that whole region is very into the Lightning. It's pretty cool, having lived there for a year I got to really see it and experience it. Especially given the quality of the team and organization as a whole, it would certainly be a destination for me if I were a player.
 
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ChiHawks10

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Starting with this would've avoided a lot of confusion for people. Not everyone understands how to break down taxes.

Just because something is easy for you to look up certainly doesn't mean everyone knows how to use that information correctly.

You're right. :thumbu: I did break it down in the simplest possible way, without trying to find any tax loopholes, stuff related to bonuses money, and without factoring in their salary only matters for half their games in the home state, and is taxed differently for the other half, but the real difference is probably far less than 500k, honestly. I can probably say the following with confidence: Toews making 10m in Florida, or Toews making 10m in Chicago, he'll probably save anywhere from 200k-500k by playing in Florida. Obviously it's a lot to us, but it's really nothing in the grand scheme of things for these guys. I doubt they ever even really notice that difference as they have accountants handling all of this for them, anyways.
 

Rolo

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Aug 9, 2011
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Cat - 7.667 x 4
Strome - 5.333 x 4

Then the Toews, Kane, Keith contracts are up and the $ goes to them.

Keeps these two as RFAs as well.
 

ColdSteel2

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Aug 27, 2010
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And in Tampa's case it's actually a good hockey town. They have a major following down there and the youth and grassroots programs are really developing and growing, high schools are starting teams, and that whole region is very into the Lightning. It's pretty cool, having lived there for a year I got to really see it and experience it. Especially given the quality of the team and organization as a whole, it would certainly be a destination for me if I were a player.

I forgot/didn’t know you lived there. What made you leave?
 

Blue Liner

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I forgot/didn’t know you lived there. What made you leave?

Wife and I moved down there not long after getting married in 2015 and came back here in 2016. Funny enough, we moved there like a day before the Cup Final started so it was fun for the Hawks to win and be living down there haha.

Moved back largely for family and career reasons. Things didn't quite go as we hoped there and our son was born while living there and we realized how isolated and without any help we were. We made friends and stuff but not the same as having family around when you have your first born.

We miss it terribly there but career-wise things exploded upon moving back here and ultimately it turned out to be the right move. I will get out of Illinois again at some point, but here for now.
 
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RememberTheRoar

“I’m not as worried about the 5-on-5 scoring.”
Oct 21, 2015
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You're right. :thumbu: I did break it down in the simplest possible way, without trying to find any tax loopholes, stuff related to bonuses money, and without factoring in their salary only matters for half their games in the home state, and is taxed differently for the other half, but the real difference is probably far less than 500k, honestly. I can probably say the following with confidence: Toews making 10m in Florida, or Toews making 10m in Chicago, he'll probably save anywhere from 200k-500k by playing in Florida. Obviously it's a lot to us, but it's really nothing in the grand scheme of things for these guys. I doubt they ever even really notice that difference as they have accountants handling all of this for them, anyways.

If this is all true, why are so many people making the claim on this site and other places that Tampa's nice contracts are due to the tax benefit?

If the difference is that small, there should be more pushback on people saying the tax benefit is the reason for Tampa's good contracts. It just seems like the narrative has become accepted that it's all because of no state income tax.
 
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RememberTheRoar

“I’m not as worried about the 5-on-5 scoring.”
Oct 21, 2015
23,119
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That's me in the corner
Cat - 7.667 x 4
Strome - 5.333 x 4

Then the Toews, Kane, Keith contracts are up and the $ goes to them.

Keeps these two as RFAs as well.

Personally, I think that's smart.

Gives you more flexibility to maximize the window in the short term, and gives DeBrincat and Strome motivation to be the next faces of the franchise five years from now.
 
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