How much of Yzerman's sacrificed offense had to do with his knee?

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Well, I'm we have all been involved in a Sakic vs. Yzerman debate at one time. One of the arguments for Sakic is that he didn't have to sacrifice offensive output to be a good defensive player. By the time I started watching hockey, Stevie Y was already playing on one knee but was still scoring at PPG pace (79 points in 78 games) the year after he won the Selke.

I didn't see Yzerman at his absolute best, but did anyone else get the impression that the only reason Stevie wasn't scoring over PPG at 35+ was his knee?

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[BraveCanadian]

I don't think it was the knee at all. If I remember correctly the knee injury was in 2000 or 2001?

What started his transformation was Scotty Bowman basically giving him the my way or the highway speech along with Yzerman having the self awareness that he was passing his offensive peak and needed to compliment his game in other ways.

 

[overg]

I don't think it was the knee at all. If I remember correctly the knee injury was in 2000 or 2001?

What started his transformation was Scotty Bowman basically giving him the my way or the highway speech along with Yzerman having the self awareness that he was passing his offensive peak and needed to compliment his game in other ways.

I always had the sense that injuries and/or age had a lot to do with it too. Even when he had offensive opportunities, he just wasn't burying them like he did in his prime. Defensive awareness reduced the number of opportunities, but his reduced ability to convert the opportunities compounded the decrease in his production.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Injuries had just as much to do with Yzerman's dip in offensive production as focusing more on defense did.

Yzerman's speed and ability to turn on a dime severely diminished as the injuries began to rack up starting in the late 80s.

 

[norrisnick]

I don't think it was the knee at all. If I remember correctly the knee injury was in 2000 or 2001?

What started his transformation was Scotty Bowman basically giving him the my way or the highway speech along with Yzerman having the self awareness that he was passing his offensive peak and needed to compliment his game in other ways.

The injury happened in '86. It just slowly but surely deteriorated to the point where there was nothing left inside his knee and a bit of swelling was actually preferred because it would keep the bones from grinding against each other.

 

[lextune]

The injury happened in '86. It just slowly but surely deteriorated to the point where there was nothing left inside his knee and a bit of swelling was actually preferred because it would keep the bones from grinding against each other.

My memory tells me the knee started in '88 for some reason......

Wasn't the problem in '86 a shoulder or collarbone or something....?

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Two words: Scotty Bowman

 

[norrisnick]

My memory tells me the knee started in '88 for some reason......

Wasn't the problem in '86 a shoulder or collarbone or something....?

Yeah, you're right. Got the two flipped.

 

[Big Phil]

My memory tells me the knee started in '88 for some reason......

Wasn't the problem in '86 a shoulder or collarbone or something....?

Whenever it was it certainly didn't slow him down at that point. Someone mentioned Bowman as the reason, I think that's about as close as you can get

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Whenever it was it certainly didn't slow him down at that point. Someone mentioned Bowman as the reason, I think that's about as close as you can get

It's both. Knee injuries, especially multiple knee injuries of the type Orr and Yzerman suffered are degenerative, and grind over time. Yzerman was lucky that modern medicine could keep him going longer.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Injuries had just as much to do with Yzerman's dip in offensive production as focusing more on defense did.

Yzerman's speed and ability to turn on a dime severely diminished as the injuries began to rack up starting in the late 80s.

I always saw it that he his added focus on defense was two-fold.
His knee's were on the decline and he knew he didn't have that extra step anymore so the desire to continue to be a great value to his team along with the arrival of Bowman were both the main factors.

It's hard for me to be unbiased here though as even as a huge Habs fan, Stevie was my favorite player, non goalie of course
Not too often will you get to see a player that was an offensive dynamo racking up as many as 155 points at his peak that less than a decade later is one of the best defensive players, faceoff master and shot blocking crazy man.

He was one of the most important and most influential players on our '02 Gold medal Olympic team, he shut down the world's best.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I always saw it that he his added focus on defense was two-fold.
His knee's were on the decline and he knew he didn't have that extra step anymore so the desire to continue to be a great value to his team along with the arrival of Bowman were both the main factors.

It's hard for me to be unbiased here though as even as a huge Habs fan, Stevie was my favorite player, non goalie of course
Not too often will you get to see a player that was an offensive dynamo racking up as many as 155 points at his peak that less than a decade later is one of the best defensive players, faceoff master and shot blocking crazy man.

He was one of the most important and most influential players on our '02 Gold medal Olympic team, he shut down the world's best.

I'm a big Yzerman fan too I think he was great and one of the few players that have successfully made the transition like you mentioned.

I do think it was a combination of his self-realization that he wasn't going to be a 100-150 point guy any more, and Scotty Bowman demanding responsibility as well as providing the framework that helped Steve along.

He was amazing in 02 both in the NHL and the Olympics on basically one leg. True grit.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

I always saw it that he his added focus on defense was two-fold.
His knee's were on the decline and he knew he didn't have that extra step anymore so the desire to continue to be a great value to his team along with the arrival of Bowman were both the main factors.

It's hard for me to be unbiased here though as even as a huge Habs fan, Stevie was my favorite player, non goalie of course
Not too often will you get to see a player that was an offensive dynamo racking up as many as 155 points at his peak that less than a decade later is one of the best defensive players, faceoff master and shot blocking crazy man.

He was one of the most important and most influential players on our '02 Gold medal Olympic team, he shut down the world's best.

Agreed -- though it was probably three-fold.

1) Injuries -- Yzerman was fast, agile and gritty in the 80s. As injuries took their toil, and age caught up, he simply was not as fast and agile. Even if Yzerman never focused more on defense, he was not going to be putting up near as much (comparable) points later in his career.

2) Focusing more on defense -- Yzerman was always a good defensive forward, dating back to his junior years. Even in the 80s he was often double-shifted on a checking line to cover opposing teams' top lines and he was a regular penalty killer. But when he was at even strength, the majority of the time he was all-offense. With Bowman, Yzerman started checking a lot more at even strength, but it was not Bowman who 'taught' Yzerman to play defense.

3) Detroit becoming a better team with other star players and more depth. Yzerman's minutes in the 80s were insane. Bowman more evenly distributed the minutes for each line and no star forward logged a ton of minutes... in fact, it was a constant source of b!tching from Fedorov and his father.

Yzerman could have been like Messier later in his career -- demanding 1st line minutes and 1st PP duties, while becoming little more than a floater looking for points (he certainly had the clout to do so in Detroit). Instead, he followed in the footsteps of somone like Trottier, still playing a valuable role while allowing others more time. By the end of his career he was playing on a third line as a grinder with still decent offense... and the only reason he retired was his body could flat-out not do it anymore, not because he was unhappy with a dminished role.

In a lot of sense, Yzerman is a "Could have been" because despite playing a long career due to advanced sports medecine (for example - his knee surgery after the 2002 playoffs had never been performed on a pro athlete before, and was used almost exclusively on the elderly whose goal was simply to be able to walk - certainly not to play sports. If he was a player in the 70s he may not have lasted more than a decade) there is no question he could have put up more insane offensive seasons without his knee problems - whether he was playing more defensively responsible or not.

I think a lot of fans outside Detroit view his "Led Detroit to a Cup on one leg" as hyperbole and myth, but it really was the case. Yzerman had no cartiledge in his knee by that point and the bones grinding in his knee could be audibly heard. Off the ice he needed crutches. Yet somehow he led a team chock-full of Hall of Famers and uninjuried offensive stars such as Fedorov, Shanahan, Hull and Robitaille in points, while being a #1 penalty killer and at the age of 36.

Lidstrom was great that year, and would win the Conn Smythe with that performance almost any year, but I still feel Yzerman was robbed for the Conn Smythe. His leadership that year is underrated as well - as throwing a bunch of star free agents on a team has led to spectacular failure more often than it has led to success.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Agreed -- though it was probably three-fold.

1) Injuries -- Yzerman was fast, agile and gritty in the 80s. As injuries took their toil, and age caught up, he simply was not as fast and agile. Even if Yzerman never focused more on defense, he was not going to be putting up near as much (comparable) points later in his career.

2) Focusing more on defense -- Yzerman was always a good defensive forward, dating back to his junior years. Even in the 80s he was often double-shifted on a checking line to cover opposing teams' top lines and he was a regular penalty killer. But when he was at even strength, the majority of the time he was all-offense. With Bowman, Yzerman started checking a lot more at even strength, but it was not Bowman who 'taught' Yzerman to play defense.

3) Detroit becoming a better team with other star players and more depth. Yzerman's minutes in the 80s were insane. Bowman more evenly distributed the minutes for each line and no star forward logged a ton of minutes... in fact, it was a constant source of b!tching from Fedorov and his father.

Yzerman could have been like Messier later in his career -- demanding 1st line minutes and 1st PP duties, while becoming little more than a floater looking for points (he certainly had the clout to do so in Detroit). Instead, he followed in the footsteps of somone like Trottier, still playing a valuable role while allowing others more time. By the end of his career he was playing on a third line as a grinder with still decent offense... and the only reason he retired was his body could flat-out not do it anymore, not because he was unhappy with a dminished role.

In a lot of sense, Yzerman is a "Could have been" because despite playing a long career due to advanced sports medecine (for example - his knee surgery after the 2002 playoffs had never been performed on a pro athlete before, and was used almost exclusively on the elderly whose goal was simply to be able to walk - certainly not to play sports. If he was a player in the 70s he may not have lasted more than a decade) there is no question he could have put up more insane offensive seasons without his knee problems - whether he was playing more defensively responsible or not.

I think a lot of fans outside Detroit view his "Led Detroit to a Cup on one leg" as hyperbole and myth, but it really was the case. Yzerman had no cartiledge in his knee by that point and the bones grinding in his knee could be audibly heard. Off the ice he needed crutches. Yet somehow he led a team chock-full of Hall of Famers and uninjuried offensive stars such as Fedorov, Shanahan, Hull and Robitaille in points, while being a #1 penalty killer and at the age of 36.

Lidstrom was great that year, and would win the Conn Smythe with that performance almost any year, but I still feel Yzerman was robbed for the Conn Smythe. His leadership that year is underrated as well - as throwing a bunch of star free agents on a team has led to spectacular failure more often than it has led to success.

Excellent post.

I'd also add another factor. The dead puck era. Regardless of who you were, your numbers were going to take a hit. If hockey keeps on being played the way it was as late as 94, I think Yzerman keeps on putting up PPG+ seasons for most of the rest of his career.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Excellent post.

I'd also add another factor. The dead puck era. Regardless of who you were, your numbers were going to take a hit. If hockey keeps on being played the way it was as late as 94, I think Yzerman keeps on putting up PPG+ seasons for most of the rest of his career.

...and he was pretty much a PPG player till he was 37, even in that defensive role, amazing to be honest.