How much could NHL team pay for a European player?

[vorky]

And the NHL teams want just one thing. When NHL merchandise is sold in Russia it should be properly licensed, sourced with royalties paid to the NHL. Not happening.

As long as this is not happening little interest or motivation for the NHL and its teams to pay for players.

Simple point. You take for free, we take for free.

This has nothing to do with players transfers. If the NHL think someone in Russia is selling NHL merchandise without NHL´s approval, then NHL can bring him into a court.

The NHL clubs want to get top Euros for peanuts and earn millions on merchandising/TV rights. As simple as that. The NHL is strong, can dictate their conditions to Euro federations. And Euro federations does not have a desire (or ability) to negotiate better deal with the NHL. They, especially Swedes, are so proud that they have so many NHLers. The sad part is that these NHLers can not help their NTs at IIHF WCH or Olympics.

 

[Zine]

This has nothing to do with players transfers. If the NHL think someone in Russia is selling NHL merchandise without NHL´s approval, then NHL can bring him into a court.

The NHL clubs want to get top Euros for peanuts and earn millions on merchandising/TV rights. As simple as that. The NHL is strong, can dictate their conditions to Euro federations. And Euro federations does not have a desire (or ability) to negotiate better deal with the NHL. They, especially Swedes, are so proud that they have so many NHLers. The sad part is that these NHLers can not help their NTs at IIHF WCH or Olympics.

Even if NHL merchandise is being sold without approval (although I doubt that's even the case), the amount is inconsequential. You rarely if ever see any NHL merchandise around and demand isn't high. The NHL isn't losing anything.
In fact, from an exposure standpoint, the NHL is probably fine with it.

 

[Riptide]

To be honest, I do not understand what you want to say.

I want just one thing - when Euro player under Euro contract moving to NHL, NHL club should negotiate a transfer fee with Euro club. That is all I want. Yes, in some cases it can be 1 USD, in another it can be 1 million USD.

Add parents paying for developing of a prospect - that is exactly what I said, the result of bad international transfer rules. If Euro club got real transfer fee from NHL clubs, the Euro club would invest more money (those from NHL clubs) into developing of their prospects.

Why would the NHL do that? It makes zero sense for the NHL. We already know that most of these players will come to the NHL regardless - it's not a matter of IF, but WHEN. So paying anything other than a token amount is pointless and doesn't make good business sense.

No they wouldn't. It's already in their best interests to develop those players to the best of their ability. Because those players play for them. Most don't even get drafted or make the NHL, which means they'll come back to their club. Spending 1m on a player vs 200k isn't going to make a damn bit of difference in the end product.

 

[Riptide]

Even if NHL merchandise is being sold without approval (although I doubt that's even the case), the amount is inconsequential. You rarely if ever see any NHL merchandise around and demand isn't high. The NHL isn't losing anything.
In fact, from an exposure standpoint, the NHL is probably fine with it.

Agreed. One can make the argument that from an moral standpoint that it's an issue... but from an financial point of view, the amounts are probably next to nothing.

 

[Jussi]

And Euro federations does not have a desire (or ability) to negotiate better deal with the NHL. They, especially Swedes, are so proud that they have so many NHLers. The sad part is that these NHLers can not help their NTs at IIHF WCH or Olympics.

It's the ability, there is nothing they can do about it because they don't have the leverage. They cannot stop players from going, domestic and EU labor laws stop such behaviour.

Swedes have so many NHL players now and they're more willoing to reprsent their country at the Worlds under the new head coach, just see what happened at this year's tournament.

 

[vorky]

Why would the NHL do that? It makes zero sense for the NHL. We already know that most of these players will come to the NHL regardless - it's not a matter of IF, but WHEN. So paying anything other than a token amount is pointless and doesn't make good business sense.

Of course it makes zero sense for the NHL. I am talking about EUROPEAN FEDERATIONS.

No they wouldn't. It's already in their best interests to develop those players to the best of their ability. Because those players play for them. Most don't even get drafted or make the NHL, which means they'll come back to their club. Spending 1m on a player vs 200k isn't going to make a damn bit of difference in the end product.

International transfer rules should find a balance between leagues/clubs, to protect weaker leagues/clubs, share money with weaker leagues/clubs. This is not happening in hockey.

Jussi - I will ask you in February how many Swedish NHLers wear Tre Kronor jersey in Korea.

 

[Sanderson]

Of course it makes zero sense for the NHL. I am talking about EUROPEAN FEDERATIONS.

And what makes you think that european federations are in agreement on the issue?
You aren't talking about what european federations want, you are talking about what you want.

In many cases, the federations are far happier getting a specified amount than they would be about individual deals. And that doesn't even take into consideration that there are disagreements inside federations and between the teams, which means you couldn' possibly state what european federations want, much less what would be good for them.

Individual deals would do absolutely nothing for hockey in Europe. A few big stars would cost a ton of money, but those stars are mostly under contract at big teams anyway. Meanwhile anyone else gets punished, because they get hardly anything at all instead of a set amount. Meaning the rich get rich and the poor get poorer, drastically lowering the amount of money they can put into development compared to the bigger teams.

That doesn't even include the impact on small lower-tier teams who originally trained the talent before he jumped to a bigger team (or its youth-organisation). Instead of them getting some compensation as well, they would be left with nothing. It's not like every player spend all of his youth at the same team. In most cases it is a chain, with local teams feeding talent to regional teams, which in turn feed to the big teams of the nation. The largest teams may have the largest development-systems, but the rosters of all those teams combined still only make up a fraction of the young players playing country-wide at a certain age-level.

 

[vorky]

And what makes you think that european federations are in agreement on the issue?
You aren't talking about what european federations want, you are talking about what you want.

In many cases, the federations are far happier getting a specified amount than they would be about individual deals. And that doesn't even take into consideration that there are disagreements inside federations and between the teams, which means you couldn' possibly state what european federations want, much less what would be good for them.

Individual deals would do absolutely nothing for hockey in Europe. A few big stars would cost a ton of money, but those stars are mostly under contract at big teams anyway. Meanwhile anyone else gets punished, because they get hardly anything at all instead of a set amount. Meaning the rich get rich and the poor get poorer, drastically lowering the amount of money they can put into development compared to the bigger teams.

That doesn't even include the impact on small lower-tier teams who originally trained the talent before he jumped to a bigger team (or its youth-organisation). Instead of them getting some compensation as well, they would be left with nothing. It's not like every player spend all of his youth at the same team. In most cases it is a chain, with local teams feeding talent to regional teams, which in turn feed to the big teams of the nation. The largest teams may have the largest development-systems, but the rosters of all those teams combined still only make up a fraction of the young players playing country-wide at a certain age-level.

So you claim that current system is good? Good for development of European hockey?

What is the problem with a rule saying: "The player can not sign with NHL club until European & NHL clubs make a deal on transfer fee"? They can make a deal on 200k like now, but in cases of superstars there should be a mechanism when European club can require more money.

Some % of transfer sum could be shared with former teams of a prospect. The same is happening right now.

 

[Riptide]

Of course it makes zero sense for the NHL. I am talking about EUROPEAN FEDERATIONS.

And that doesn't mean all that much. You can talk about what might be best for them all you want... but it will never ever happen. The NHL has all the leverage and they know it, and they seem to have zero issues using that leverage for what's best for the NHL.

Again, this isn't soccer/football where there's a dozen leagues and hundreds of teams looking and and wanting that one player... there's 2-3 leagues that would love to have him, and the pay scale in those isn't even remotely close to being the same. Meaning the kid if he's good enough will come to the NHL if only for the paycheque that can't be matched in Europe.

So you claim that current system is good? Good for development of European hockey?

What is the problem with a rule saying: "The player can not sign with NHL club until European & NHL clubs make a deal on transfer fee"? They can make a deal on 200k like now, but in cases of superstars there should be a mechanism when European club can require more money.

Because you need to get the European Federations to agree to that - and then try to get the NHL to agree to that. Because they sure as **** will not agree to a minimum of 200k that could go higher for better players. They're either going to agree on a fixed amount, or nothing at all - just like the KHL. And the Federations are going to take one look at what's happening with the KHL and realise that getting something (part of that 200k) is better than getting nothing and still losing the player.

Vorky, you can talk about this all you want... but it's never going to happen. The NHL is simply too big with too much money and too much leverage to put themselves in a position where they need to do this (buy players from European clubs). And both the NHL and the European clubs know this, otherwise they would have already followed the KHL in an attempt to change things.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Illegal

So you claim that current system is good? Good for development of European hockey?

What is the problem with a rule saying: "The player can not sign with NHL club until European & NHL clubs make a deal on transfer fee"? They can make a deal on 200k like now, but in cases of superstars there should be a mechanism when European club can require more money.

Some % of transfer sum could be shared with former teams of a prospect. The same is happening right now.

Illegal in most countries. Try again.

 

[Riptide]

Illegal in most countries. Try again.

Not if he changed the wording to say "while under contract to a European Club".

But that style of agreement would require that the NHL agree to it. And we all know how that would go down.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Seriously......

Not if he changed the wording to say "while under contract to a European Club".

But that style of agreement would require that the NHL agree to it. And we all know how that would go down.

You seriously believe that a contract within a league trumps National, Regional(E-U) or International laws and signed conventions?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Russian Courts

This has nothing to do with players transfers. If the NHL think someone in Russia is selling NHL merchandise without NHL´s approval, then NHL can bring him into a court.

The NHL clubs want to get top Euros for peanuts and earn millions on merchandising/TV rights. As simple as that. The NHL is strong, can dictate their conditions to Euro federations. And Euro federations does not have a desire (or ability) to negotiate better deal with the NHL. They, especially Swedes, are so proud that they have so many NHLers. The sad part is that these NHLers can not help their NTs at IIHF WCH or Olympics.

Russian laws and courts are inadequate. Russia has never signed the appropriate International conventions.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Details

Even if NHL merchandise is being sold without approval (although I doubt that's even the case), the amount is inconsequential. You rarely if ever see any NHL merchandise around and demand isn't high. The NHL isn't losing anything.
In fact, from an exposure standpoint, the NHL is probably fine with it.

Russia has never signed International intellectual property conventions or agreements. The losses worldwide are detailed below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfeit_consumer_goods

This is for 2008. Problem is worse today. NHL apportionned for Russia would be app $300 million annually.

No league or business ever wants to be associated with cheap imitation illegal products depicting its logos. NHL does not receive any benefits and is definitely not fine with what you suggest.

 

[Riptide]

You seriously believe that a contract within a league trumps National, Regional(E-U) or International laws and signed conventions?

Do you have examples of players breaking existing contracts to go to other leagues?

 

[Riptide]

Russia has never signed International intellectual property conventions or agreements. The losses worldwide are detailed below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfeit_consumer_goods

This is for 2008. Problem is worse today. NHL apportionned for Russia would be app $300 million annually.

No league or business ever wants to be associated with cheap imitation illegal products depicting its logos. NHL does not receive any benefits and is definitely not fine with what you suggest.

I highly doubt it. But regardless, this is way off topic.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ilya Kovalchuk

Do you have examples of players breaking existing contracts to go to other leagues?

Ilya Kovalchuk.

 

[mouser]

Ilya Kovalchuk.

Kovalchuk is a bad example for this discussion. He didn't "break" his contract to go to the KHL. NJ chose to terminate the contract and were probably happy to do so. But the Devils had the option to keep the contract in place and create a situation where the KHL would be forced to break their agreement with the NHL to sign Kovy.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Benefit

Kovalchuk is a bad example for this discussion. He didn't "break" his contract to go to the KHL. NJ chose to terminate the contract and were probably happy to do so. But the Devils had the option to keep the contract in place and create a situation where the KHL would be forced to break their agreement with the NHL to sign Kovy.

Actually a good example because it goes to the core of the issue, "Benefit".

Keeping Kovalchuk had zero benefit to NJ. No point throwing good money after bad. Comparables with the Canadiens this off season.

Similarly for the European teams who get young talent because they are a good school for rhe NHL and easy to leave. Challenge one and the flow of talent dries up.

 

[Riptide]

Ilya Kovalchuk.

But he didn't do it alone - he did it with the approval of his team. And besides, this was the NHL, not a European league... which means none of those fancy entities you mentioned below.

You seriously believe that a contract within a league trumps National, Regional(E-U) or International laws and signed conventions?

 

[Ciao]

Do you expect 15 year old's to move halfway across the world to chase a hockey career, I can't speak for the kids but it seems unlikely at that age.

My guess would be that Europe hasn't adapted to the NCAA model since there's no need for it, it's perfectly fine to play pro-hockey as a 16 year old here, there's no college hockey (not as official as NCAA) and there's no scholarships in great schools with high tuition fees that will vow you to come to their college for prestige.

There's hockey in school (if you get apply for it and are selected) until you are 18 and that's paid by government/SHL teams.
Most of these kids doesn't go to the NA after that, they end up chasing other carers or start in lower level Swedish leagues and might end up in Allsvenskan or SHL some day.

So the SHL teams pays for the coaching staff and 3 years of education and hockey practice for a whole team in each age category (U16/U18/U20) and the payoff is getting some players to the level that they break in to the pro-roster.

Now if the players end up leaving for NA I would think it would only be fair if there was some compensation for all these investments (currently the agreement between SIHF and NHL is 240k split between the clubs the players represented the last three years), and even more so if the said player is projected to actually carry a franchise and bring in lots of money to that franchise, don't you?

No. I don't think the development league has a property interest in the player. The player is not theirs to sell.

If the development league wants to make some kind of financial arrangement with the player for a portion of the player's hockey-related income, that's up to them but it seems a bit unconscionable and perhaps unenforceable to foist this on a minor.

I don't think the pro leagues have any obligation to fund the developmental leagues. Presumably, these are community-based organizations that are doing it for the good of the communities they serve, and that should be reward enough.

 

[Ciao]

So you claim that current system is good? Good for development of European hockey?

What is the problem with a rule saying: "The player can not sign with NHL club until European & NHL clubs make a deal on transfer fee"? They can make a deal on 200k like now, but in cases of superstars there should be a mechanism when European club can require more money.

Some % of transfer sum could be shared with former teams of a prospect. The same is happening right now.

I guess the major problem is that neither team has property interest in the player.

Basically, Western countries abolished the buying and selling of human beings when slavery was ended some time ago. Since then, everyone has a right to earn a living and and to enjoy the fruits of their own labours. No one else has a property interest in that person's labour unless the person has contracted that right away.

 

[Riptide]

I guess the major problem is that neither team has property interest in the player.

Basically, Western countries abolished the buying and selling of human beings when slavery was ended some time ago. Since then, everyone has a right to earn a living and and to enjoy the fruits of their own labours. No one else has a property interest in that person's labour unless the person has contracted that right away.

And yet they sell Footballers between teams and leagues, so clearly that's not a legitimate reason as to why it couldn't happen.

 

[Mayuu]

No. I don't think the development league has a property interest in the player. The player is not theirs to sell.

If the development league wants to make some kind of financial arrangement with the player for a portion of the player's hockey-related income, that's up to them but it seems a bit unconscionable and perhaps unenforceable to foist this on a minor.

I don't think the pro leagues have any obligation to fund the developmental leagues. Presumably, these are community-based organizations that are doing it for the good of the communities they serve, and that should be reward enough.

You can call SHL a development league all you want, it's first and foremost a pro-league and the main goal of each team is to win the title, not make sure their young players get ice time demanded by NHL.

You seem to be under the impression that the euro leagues would not exist if the NHL weren't around but that's not the case at all.

 

[vorky]

You seriously believe that a contract within a league trumps National, Regional(E-U) or International laws and signed conventions?

Without a problem. The exact same system works in soccer & basketball. As Riptide added, I am talking about players under Euro contract.