How much cap space do we have?

Rich Nixon

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Under team control...

forwards:
Giroux ($8.275 mil)
Voracek ($8.25 mil)
van Riemsdyk ($7 mil)
Couturier ($4.33 mil)
Patrick ($0.925 mil)
Lindblom ($0.925 mil)
Konecny (RFA)
Laughton (RFA)

defensemen:
MacDonald ($5 mil)
Gostisbehere ($4.5 mil)
Gudas ($3.35 mil)
Hagg ($1.125 mil)
Morin ($0.700 mil)
Myers ($0.678 mil)
Provorov (RFA)
Sanheim (RFA)

goalies:
Hart ($0.730 mil)
Stolarz (RFA)

6 signed forward, 6 signed defensemen, 1 signed goalie, 4 major RFAs, probably close to $33-35 million in cap space ($31.8 currently, cap will bump up).

I'd like to see if you can get Sanheim at $4mx4, Konecny at $5mx4, Laughton at $3mx2, and Provorov at like, $7mx5.
 

Starat327

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Under team control...

forwards:
Giroux ($8.275 mil)
Voracek ($8.25 mil)
van Riemsdyk ($7 mil)
Couturier ($4.33 mil)
Patrick ($0.925 mil)
Lindblom ($0.925 mil)
Konecny (RFA)
Laughton (RFA)

defensemen:
MacDonald ($5 mil)
Gostisbehere ($4.5 mil)
Gudas ($3.35 mil)
Hagg ($1.125 mil)
Morin ($0.700 mil)
Myers ($0.678 mil)
Provorov (RFA)
Sanheim (RFA)

goalies:
Hart ($0.730 mil)
Stolarz (RFA)

6 signed forward, 6 signed defensemen, 1 signed goalie, 4 major RFAs, probably close to $33-35 million in cap space ($31.8 currently, cap will bump up).

I'd like to see if you can get Sanheim at $4mx4, Konecny at $5mx4, Laughton at $3mx2, and Provorov at like, $7mx5.

Id like to see further deals for at least one of Sanheim/Provorov and Konecny. signing them for such short deals puts in a bit of an odd position in that time frame when basically our entire current core is out of contract. While i wouldnt anticipate losing them all at that point, that's a lot of uncertainty around roster decision at one time.
 

Rich Nixon

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Id like to see further deals for at least one of Sanheim/Provorov and Konecny. signing them for such short deals puts in a bit of an odd position in that time frame when basically our entire current core is out of contract. While i wouldnt anticipate losing them all at that point, that's a lot of uncertainty around roster decision at one time.

You're right, Provorov should be 6-8 and Konecny should be 3. My math was off, I was trying to keep them RFAs at the end and completely forgot how long these guys have been in the league. Basically, enhanced bridge deals.
 
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Hiesenberg

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Why are you paying Laughton 3MM? He should be vet minimum. He gets 20 points a year
 

GapToothedWonder

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I am not saying I am right. I think Myers will be the better player. I know what Provorov is and he is a good dman but nothing special .

Are you saying Myers has room to grow and untapped potential and Provorov is a finished product?

Is it because Provorov is 12 days older? Can we expect Myers to be a finished product in 12 days when he matches Provorov's current age?

Can you defend any of this with logic or am I just talking to one of those "gut feeling" people.

If Myers, Sanheim and Ghost all end up better the Provorov we would have aarguably one of the best defenses in league history.





But, yeah, Provorov had a tough 3 months and some puck control issues after coming off a shoulder injury while playing #1 minutes and very hard ones to boot, with no real support from his partner at 21 years old. Time to bring out the hot takes.

Ffs.
 

briererocks

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I didn't say Myers will be beterb because he is younger . He is more of an unknown because the organization has not given him an opportunity to show his stuff . Provorov I have a better sense of what type of player he is.

Fact 1 .
Provorov is awful on the pp .

Fact 2.
His 5 on 5 corsi has been mediocre every year he has played .

Fact 3
He plays lots of minutes against tough competition

Fact 4
He put up good offensive numbers last year

Fact 5
He is a very good skater

Fact 6
He very often flubs the puck

I have a pretty good idea of Provorov . I think he is a good player . I am less sure about Myers but I think he will end up better .

A dman who is not great on the pp and has not put up amazing corsi numbers 5 on 5 is not worth 7m. He is certainly tradable and replaceable. He is not a cornerstone or shouldn't be.

Finally what annoys me is the conclusionary attacks . Do you dispute he sucks on the pp? Do you dispute his corsi is mediocre? Do you dispute he often flubs the puck? Do you dispute he is poor at pinching oftrn leading to an odd man rush the other way .

What do you disagree with. It seems like you dispute the conclusion not the argument. Hence my belief this board has blinders on when it comes to provorov.
 
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Curufinwe

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It kills me to see Provorov get his hypothetical 7 year x $6.5 mil deal or whatever and then “Sandy” is an afterthought to get bridged. How can someone watch Sanheim and not want that long term deal that looks super cheap in a season or two? That bugs me as part of a larger thing that bugs me.

I can see why Sanheim himself might prefer to be bridged.
 
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Magua

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I can see why Sanheim himself might prefer to be bridged.

Rare is the player who prefers to be bridged, within monetary reason and not provided hindsight. There’s such a thing as financial certainty in your early 20s.

Sanheim doesn’t really have a case to deny a 5 or 6 year deal north of $4 mil. What will he gripe about? This team doesn’t even use him on the PP after he scores the PP game winner and is 1 point shy of his #1 partner’s career high in PP points in 1/3 the ice time. He doesn’t PK. He’d be better off asking for a trade than a pay increase with that usage.
 

Curufinwe

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He will get more PP time going forward and may want to use that to get a bigger payday in a couple of years.

Why are you paying Laughton 3MM? He should be vet minimum. He gets 20 points a year

He's already at 19 after 52 games. Do you expect him to get 1 points in the last 30 games?

He's also averaging 14 minutes a night. You should try and find a recent 25 year old RFA with those kind of numbers who got the vet minimum.
 

Rebels57

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Why are you paying Laughton 3MM? He should be vet minimum. He gets 20 points a year

You're definitely underselling the important of a bottom 6 player that can play any position, PK, and register 20-30 points. I like the general rule of thumb that a players salary should equate to roughly $100,000 per point scored, so a 20-30 point forward should earn somewhere in that $2-3 million range.

I think $2.5 would be a nice number for Laughton. Anything less a bargain.
 

bennysflyers16

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Rare is the player who prefers to be bridged, within monetary reason and not provided hindsight. There’s such a thing as financial certainty in your early 20s.

Sanheim doesn’t really have a case to deny a 5 or 6 year deal north of $4 mil. What will he gripe about? This team doesn’t even use him on the PP after he scores the PP game winner and is 1 point shy of his #1 partner’s career high in PP points in 1/3 the ice time. He doesn’t PK. He’d be better off asking for a trade than a pay increase with that usage.

Josh Morrisey is a very current example. He was a hold out to get his bridge deal when team wanted 6-7 yr deal
 

Magua

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Josh Morrisey is a very current example. He was a hold out to get his bridge deal when team wanted 6-7 yr deal

A month and a half ago, Sanheim was averaging ~14 minutes on the 3rd pair. He was demoted the year before. Morrissey was receiving ~20 minutes in consecutive seasons prior to his bridge. He also has the rather unique situation of being on the same team as Trouba, who is fighting for his own money and is probably gone when Morrissey's contract is up.

It's not like I know the player personally, but Sanheim doesn't seem the type to demand a bridge over an agreeable long-term deal. He's not working with a ton of leverage either. You have someone like Hanifin, with a lot more pedigree and NHL time, signing for 6 years x $4.9 mil. On his own team, Gostisbehere is locked up for 6 years x $4.5 mil on his own team (I guess he didn't want that bridge despite a Calder runner-up season?). If they offered a somewhat similar deal -- with Sanheim not usurping Ghost's PP time -- you think he'd flat out not accept it? I don't. This team doesn't even view him as more valuable on the PP than Provorov. Half the time he plays no special teams. It's f***ed in the head, but that accounts into negotiating.
 
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landsbergfan

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It kills me to see Provorov get his hypothetical 7 year x $6.5 mil deal or whatever and then “Sandy” is an afterthought to get bridged. How can someone watch Sanheim and not want that long term deal that looks super cheap in a season or two? That bugs me as part of a larger thing that bugs me.
I have him in the 4.25-4.75 range long term. Of course that is if we can't get the bridge deal we are all hoping for.
 

Magua

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I have him in the 4.25-4.75 range long term. Of course that is if we can't get the bridge deal we are all hoping for.

image
 

Starat327

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It's one thing to see a fan of an opposing team undervalue a player in a HF proposal because they're trying to lower his "HF trade value".

Rare is it that a fan wildly undersells a player of a team they claim to be a fan of. Maybe Provorov will see this post and feel he isn't really worth the 6.5M or more contract he's almost assuredly going to get, and just take 5.
 

deadhead

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Konecny $3M? 44 ES points last year, 40+ this year, think more like 6 yrs $4-5M.
Sanheim is tough, the talent is obvious, he is improving, but he's not Provorov or Werenski who hit the ground running.
Flyers should lock him up long-term with a slight overpay based on his long-term upside relative to his current production.
Provorov should get top young D man money, not elite money, but he is a true first line D-man who just turned 22. Just take him off the PP when Myers comes up and reduce his minutes by 1-2 per game.

Laughton won't get what the top bottom six veterans got in FA, but he shouldn't be far behind, top 4LW who's a decent 3LW and who can fill in at center when you have injuries, and give you 20-30 points or more, depending on his center. That has real value.
 
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briererocks

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It's one thing to see a fan of an opposing team undervalue a player in a HF proposal because they're trying to lower his "HF trade value".

Rare is it that a fan wildly undersells a player of a team they claim to be a fan of. Maybe Provorov will see this post and feel he isn't really worth the 6.5M or more contract he's almost assuredly going to get, and just take 5.

I think when Werenski who is much better than provorov gets no more than 6.5m and hanifin who was drafted before Provorov got 5mx6 and Seth Jones got 5.4 m 3 years ago and is light years better than Provorov i don't see in what universe provorov should get more than 6m . Then again holmgren is near the steering wheel so you nebne know .
 

nuclear reactor

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Several teams have a ton of cap room so it will be hard to nab 2 big names. But didn't Fletcher do that in Minnesota? If they can ditch MacDonald and Weise, they can fit 2 big contacts under the cap. Do what it takes to get rid of MacDonald and Weise and stop wasting prime Giroux years.
 

Rebels57

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I think when Werenski who is much better than provorov gets no more than 6.5m and hanifin who was drafted before Provorov got 5mx6 and Seth Jones got 5.4 m 3 years ago and is light years better than Provorov i don't see in what universe provorov should get more than 6m . Then again holmgren is near the steering wheel so you nebne know .

Provorov was better than Werenski last season. Without a doubt.

It's a shame you don't appreciate him. Your loss I guess.
 

Hiesenberg

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He will get more PP time going forward and may want to use that to get a bigger payday in a couple of years.



He's already at 19 after 52 games. Do you expect him to get 1 points in the last 30 games?

He's also averaging 14 minutes a night. You should try and find a recent 25 year old RFA with those kind of numbers who got the vet minimum.

Well he's gone 21 games without a goal. I think there is a really good chance he gets only a few points in the next 30.

But I won't be heart broken if we bring him back. I do like him, he does almost everything else pretty good.
 

Starat327

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I think when Werenski who is much better than provorov gets no more than 6.5m and hanifin who was drafted before Provorov got 5mx6 and Seth Jones got 5.4 m 3 years ago and is light years better than Provorov i don't see in what universe provorov should get more than 6m . Then again holmgren is near the steering wheel so you nebne know .


Being drafted before Provorov means nothing. Hanifin's time in Carolina was fairly underwhelming, and he never hit the same production Provorov has. Thats just an extremely poor argument.

Werenski being better than Provorov is debatable at best and laughable at worst. He's a better offensive defenseman maybe, but his defensive game is behind Provorov's, unless were operating under the assumption that this year, and not the previous two, are who we expect Provorov to be moving forward. He plays less TOI in general, almost double as much on the PP, and close to a 1/3 of what provorov does on the PK.

Aaron Ekblaad is the obvious exception to this rule, but i think his contract was kinda poor the moment they signed it - i think we all mostly agree to that, as well. However, if you dont think Provorov's camp with use that as a negotiating point, you're new to contract negotiations.

Let's use Seth Jones as a base, since they're probably the most comparable (young, almost guaranteed to be good/elite #1s). He signed his deal in 2016, when the cap was 73 million. his 5.4M was approximately 7.4% of the cap (for negotiations, your comparables are always in percentages because no one cares about dollar value when the 'available' funds have increased - except Crosby because hes a weirdo). 7.4 % of the cap, projected somewhere between 81 and 85 Million for next year - we'll use 83 as a midrange for this exercise - would be approximately 6.14 Million. I'd say that is just about the floor of what we should expect for Provorov. Keep in mind - that 7.4% of the cap was when Seth Jones had just eclipsed the 30 point mark for the first time - 31 points over two teams - in his contract year. Provorov has put up 30 in both his full seasons, and is pacing for 27 in what were all describing as an awful year for him.

Now, I want to be clear here - im assuming we're tying Provorov down for 8 years, because its the sensible thing to do, imo. Unless we're signing him to a short bridge which would see him remain a RFA at the end of the deal, where we then extend him by 8 years (which carries its own risks, but i digress) a bridge is nonsensical. For added context - Seth Jones' deal takes him straight to UFA. I think we can all agree that the more UFA years you start to buy, the more expensive the contract gets. This has been proven time and time again. On an 8 year deal, we'd be buying 3 UFA years, if my math is correct (and assuming Provorov plays all seasons in between/we dont have a lockout, etc). I dont feel like doing the research on recently signed contracts to gauge the % of escalation RFA to UFA years cost, but for the sake of argument, lets say Provorov wants an extra 10% to commit to this team for those years, and not become a UFA until his age 30/31 season. Seems a little low to me, but again, Im not terribly interested in researching specifics of comparable contracts to prove the point. That alone would necessitate a 6.7M contract (one i'd be happy to pay, mind you) for 8 years.

It isnt an exact science by any means. But if we can lock Provorov down for 6.5 or less for 8 years - i'll be utterly ecstatic.

edit: @JojoTheWhale didnt see your response until i had started posting this wall of text (sorry), and dont want to clutter the thread with additional posts, but feel free to peruse if you see fit :)
 
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briererocks

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Being drafted before Provorov means nothing. Hanifin's time in Carolina was fairly underwhelming, and he never hit the same production Provorov has. Thats just an extremely poor argument.

Werenski being better than Provorov is debatable at best and laughable at worst. He's a better offensive defenseman maybe, but his defensive game is behind Provorov's, unless were operating under the assumption that this year, and not the previous two, are who we expect Provorov to be moving forward. He plays less TOI in general, almost double as much on the PP, and close to a 1/3 of what provorov does on the PK.

Aaron Ekblaad is the obvious exception to this rule, but i think his contract was kinda poor the moment they signed it - i think we all mostly agree to that, as well. However, if you dont think Provorov's camp with use that as a negotiating point, you're new to contract negotiations.

Let's use Seth Jones as a base, since they're probably the most comparable (young, almost guaranteed to be good/elite #1s). He signed his deal in 2016, when the cap was 73 million. his 5.4M was approximately 7.4% of the cap (for negotiations, your comparables are always in percentages because no one cares about dollar value when the 'available' funds have increased - except Crosby because hes a weirdo). 7.4 % of the cap, projected somewhere between 81 and 85 Million for next year - we'll use 83 as a midrange for this exercise - would be approximately 6.14 Million. I'd say that is just about the floor of what we should expect for Provorov. Keep in mind - that 7.4% of the cap was when Seth Jones had just eclipsed the 30 point mark for the first time - 31 points over two teams - in his contract year. Provorov has put up 30 in both his full seasons, and is pacing for 27 in what were all describing as an awful year for him.

Now, I want to be clear here - im assuming we're tying Provorov down for 8 years, because its the sensible thing to do, imo. Unless we're signing him to a short bridge which would see him remain a RFA at the end of the deal, where we then extend him by 8 years (which carries its own risks, but i digress) a bridge is nonsensical. For added context - Seth Jones' deal takes him straight to UFA. I think we can all agree that the more UFA years you start to buy, the more expensive the contract gets. This has been proven time and time again. On an 8 year deal, we'd be buying 3 UFA years, if my math is correct (and assuming Provorov plays all seasons in between/we dont have a lockout, etc). I dont feel like doing the research on recently signed contracts to gauge the % of escalation RFA to UFA years cost, but for the sake of argument, lets say Provorov wants an extra 10% to commit to this team for those years, and not become a UFA until his age 30/31 season. Seems a little low to me, but again, Im not terribly interested in researching specifics of comparable contracts to prove the point. That alone would necessitate a 6.7M contract (one i'd be happy to pay, mind you) for 8 years.

It isnt an exact science by any means. But if we can lock Provorov down for 6.5 or less for 8 years - i'll be utterly ecstatic.

edit: @JojoTheWhale didnt see your response until i had started posting this wall of text (sorry), and dont want to clutter the thread with additional posts, but feel free to peruse if you see fit :)

Being drafted before Provorov means nothing. Hanifin's time in Carolina was fairly underwhelming, and he never hit the same production Provorov has. Thats just an extremely poor argument.

Werenski being better than Provorov is debatable at best and laughable at worst. He's a better offensive defenseman maybe, but his defensive game is behind Provorov's, unless were operating under the assumption that this year, and not the previous two, are who we expect Provorov to be moving forward. He plays less TOI in general, almost double as much on the PP, and close to a 1/3 of what provorov does on the PK.

Aaron Ekblaad is the obvious exception to this rule, but i think his contract was kinda poor the moment they signed it - i think we all mostly agree to that, as well. However, if you dont think Provorov's camp with use that as a negotiating point, you're new to contract negotiations.

Let's use Seth Jones as a base, since they're probably the most comparable (young, almost guaranteed to be good/elite #1s). He signed his deal in 2016, when the cap was 73 million. his 5.4M was approximately 7.4% of the cap (for negotiations, your comparables are always in percentages because no one cares about dollar value when the 'available' funds have increased - except Crosby because hes a weirdo). 7.4 % of the cap, projected somewhere between 81 and 85 Million for next year - we'll use 83 as a midrange for this exercise - would be approximately 6.14 Million. I'd say that is just about the floor of what we should expect for Provorov. Keep in mind - that 7.4% of the cap was when Seth Jones had just eclipsed the 30 point mark for the first time - 31 points over two teams - in his contract year. Provorov has put up 30 in both his full seasons, and is pacing for 27 in what were all describing as an awful year for him.

Now, I want to be clear here - im assuming we're tying Provorov down for 8 years, because its the sensible thing to do, imo. Unless we're signing him to a short bridge which would see him remain a RFA at the end of the deal, where we then extend him by 8 years (which carries its own risks, but i digress) a bridge is nonsensical. For added context - Seth Jones' deal takes him straight to UFA. I think we can all agree that the more UFA years you start to buy, the more expensive the contract gets. This has been proven time and time again. On an 8 year deal, we'd be buying 3 UFA years, if my math is correct (and assuming Provorov plays all seasons in between/we dont have a lockout, etc). I dont feel like doing the research on recently signed contracts to gauge the % of escalation RFA to UFA years cost, but for the sake of argument, lets say Provorov wants an extra 10% to commit to this team for those years, and not become a UFA until his age 30/31 season. Seems a little low to me, but again, Im not terribly interested in researching specifics of comparable contracts to prove the point. That alone would necessitate a 6.7M contract (one i'd be happy to pay, mind you) for 8 years.

It isnt an exact science by any means. But if we can lock Provorov down for 6.5 or less for 8 years - i'll be utterly ecstatic.

edit: @JojoTheWhale didnt see your response until i had started posting this wall of text (sorry), and dont want to clutter the thread with additional posts, but feel free to peruse if you see fit :)

Hanifin led his team in points as a d last year. Werenski is awesome on the pp and 5 on 5 is a better offensive dman and maybe slightly worse defensively than Provorov . To compare provorov to Seth Jones is silly. Provorov will never be anywhere near as good as Jones .
 

GapToothedWonder

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I didn't say Myers will be beterb because he is younger . He is more of an unknown because the organization has not given him an opportunity to show his stuff . Provorov I have a better sense of what type of player he is.

Fact 1 .
Provorov is awful on the pp .

You can be a corner stone without being a good PP player. And he likely would be more effective on the PP if used as a shooter vs how they use him as a QB and zone entry guy like they currently do. Do you dispute that you can be a corner stone without being a great PP player?

Fact 2.
His 5 on 5 corsi has been mediocre every year he has played .

His corsi is fine when you include context and use the stat properly. Do you dispute that you are cherry picking stats?

Fact 3
He plays lots of minutes against tough competition

And does very well considering the situation.

Fact 4
He put up good offensive numbers last year

And you feel like his 20/21 year old season will be his peak offensive output?

Fact 5
He is a very good skater

In a league where skating is becoming more and more important

Fact 6
He very often flubs the puck

Did you feel like this has been an issue in the past? Has it been as noticeable over the last 15 games? Do you dispute that the shoulder injury could be affecting his stick handling? Do you dispute that he had been very sure handed with the puck in his first two seasons?

I have a pretty good idea of Provorov . I think he is a good player . I am less sure about Myers but I think he will end up better .

What have you seen if Myers. What exactly makes you feel like he has higher potential? If you don't think he is currently better what makes you think he will continue to develop go the point he catches and passes Provorov as a player?

A dman who is not great on the pp and has not put up amazing corsi numbers 5 on 5 is not worth 7m. He is certainly tradable and replaceable. He is not a cornerstone or shouldn't be.

Finally what annoys me is the conclusionary attacks . Do you dispute he sucks on the pp? Do you dispute his corsi is mediocre? Do you dispute he often flubs the puck? Do you dispute he is poor at pinching oftrn leading to an odd man rush the other way .

People have been disputing your poor use of corsi, your exaggeration of his puck control issues and I don't think he has any issues with making bad reads on pinches.

What do you disagree with. It seems like you dispute the conclusion not the argument. Hence my belief this board has blinders on when it comes to provorov.

I don't think the board has blinders on about Provorov, people have talked all season about how he has under performed. If anything it seems like you have blinders on and are experiencing conformation bias, you have come to a conclusion about Provorov and are looking for any stat you can to prove it, or to fixate on a half seasons worth of sub pat puck control and the fact he isn't great on the PP while ignoring the fact he is just turned 22 and leading a defence core by absorbing some of the hardest minutes in the NHL.

You aren't being persecuted, you states your opinion, tried to argue it, had your arguments refuted. You were weighed and measured and showed to be left wanting
 

Starat327

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Hanifin led his team in points as a d last year. Werenski is awesome on the pp and 5 on 5 is a better offensive dman and maybe slightly worse defensively than Provorov . To compare provorov to Seth Jones is silly. Provorov will never be anywhere near as good as Jones .

Leading a bad Carolina team isnt an accomplishment. That's like saying Bracco is worth Frost because they are both the teams best forward prospects.

Werenski is great on the PP, and thats important. But we dont need Provorov to be great there, because we have Ghost, and hopefully, Sanheim soon. Im on board with the idea that Provorov should not be playing on the pp. We're in agreement there.

His 5v5 scoring is because he plays much easier minutes, and generally speaking, has been playing with much better partners, on much better teams.

This honestly isnt even worth discussing with you anymore. I'm glad you have a crystal ball that has every other Flyers D man and prospect turning out better than Provorov, despite none of them being better now, including a player who hasnt even set foot on NHL ice. You don't think Provorov is an exceptionally good d-man, and that's ok, I guess..? But I've got a good feeling your paddling that boat alone.
 

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