How many points does Hampus Lindholm need to be "elite"?

[seafoam]

45+ I think would make me go, "okay this guy is definitely top end" from an outsider's perspective who doesn't watch him more than a handful of times a year.

 

[Erndog]

He's basically the next Vlasic/Hjamarsson

People were horny AF for these guys too 8-10 years ago but they were never really elite status. Just VERY good defensive status.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

He's basically the next Vlasic/Hjamarsson

People were horny AF for these guys too 8-10 years ago but they were never really elite status. Just VERY good defensive status.

Pretty much. I see him as an evolving Vlasic including the comparative lack of attention.

But I do see Vlasic as elite, so your mileage may vary on that term.

 

[Critical13]

I am in the camp that no elite player has a serious flaw on either side of the ice. He's amazing defensively, but I need to see 45ish points to call him elite. Elite means Karlsson, Burns, Doughty, Pie, OEL territory. They can control the game.

Right now he's in that group below with Vlasic, Hamilton, Giordano.

 

[PatrikBerglund]

How is Lindholm not considered a top 5 defensive D right now. Or atleast very close to it

He is top-3 without a shadow of a doubt.

Offensively, probably not even top-60 though.

 

[HanSolo]

I am in the camp that no elite player has a serious flaw on either side of the ice. He's amazing defensively, but I need to see 45ish points to call him elite. Elite means Karlsson, Burns, Doughty, Pie, OEL territory. They can control the game.

Right now he's in that group below with Vlasic, Hamilton, Giordano.

I don't disagree with your premise but I think the idea that no elite player has a serious flaw at either end paired with the idea that scoring less than 45 points precludes you from being elite kinda sounds like scoring less than 45 points is a serious offensive flaw.

 

[GeeoffBrown]

I dunno. Whenever my team plays the Ducks, he's impossible to play against. I'd say he's already elite.

 

[PatrikBerglund]

I dunno. Whenever my team plays the Ducks, he's impossible to play against. I'd say he's already elite.

Curious, which team is that?

 

[Statto]

Defencemen, for me, can be Elite without putting up big point totals. However to be considered Elite they have to play in all situations and be one of the go to guys in those situations. So averaging 20 seconds of pp time per game doesn't cut it.

 

[PALE PWNR]

What defensemen has ever been considered elite without being great offensively? All these posts about you don't need to put up points to be considered an elite defensemen, give an example. I'm of the opinion one cannot be elite while being mediocre at defense or offense.

 

[The Macho King]

What defensemen has ever been considered elite without being great offensively? All these posts about you don't need to put up points to be considered an elite defensemen, give an example. I'm of the opinion one cannot be elite while being mediocre at defense or offense.

Inb4 Langway.

 

[ps241]

Most people know about his advanced stats and everyone weighs them differently.

Many consider him a top tier shutdown dman, he has the ability to contribute more offensively but seems to focus more on defending. He is an elite skater and has become much more physical too.

How many points does he need to be top 10 or a Norris Trophy contender?

So a back to the OP.

To begin with Norris is an odd competition IMO that is very heavily weighted to offensive production. Now I am a big fan of Karlsson and the usual suspects that win it but I personally don't treat it as the holy grail measuring stick for defensive effectiveness. That being said you have asked "how many points would he need to be a top 10 or Norris's Trophy contender"? To be a Norris Trophy contender my belief is that he would have to live in the 40's points wise for a few seasons until he built up political cred with the hockey writers then peak in the mid to high 50's on his winning season. He will not be the top scoring defenseman so he would need to Doughty the award with a blend of total game lifetime achievement combination. I don't really see this as Hampus's path.

Now onto your other question, to become a top 10 defender away from the "voting" of the bright shiny object, who gives a **** , gang that couldn't shoot strait Hockey writers is a very different matter. I think there is more room for an elite "defender", shot suppressor, possession driver, that significantly impacts his teammates positively to be in that conversation. Vlasic seems to be considered pretty dam good and he has only broken the 30 point threshold 2 of his 11 seasons. I see Lindholm as comfortably having a Vlasic talent level in his prime.

One mild concern is Hampus has had a few injuries I think the wrist held him back a bit last season but needing off season shoulder surgery was certainly suboptimal. Injuries are part of life in the NHL but hopefully durability won't become a problem?

Very solid young up and coming defender.

 

[Morbo]

A lot more than he has been putting up.

 

[Channelcat]

How many points does he need to be a generational player?

 

[Iapyi]

These types of threads are so stupid because subjective terms like elite cannot be quantified. Two posters could view Hampus Lindholm exactly equally, but poster A could see "elite" as being a perennial Norris contending, top-5 defenseman, while poster B could view "elite" as a top-30 defenseman in the league.

In my opinion, to be considered elite, a guy should be a perennial contender for the best at his position, or at least close. For a defenseman, this means he needs to be in Norris talk, even if it's just on occasion. I would consider Giordano and Vlasic the cut off for elite, regarding defensemen. Is Lindholm there? Probably not. I think he would need to consistently score at least 45 points, or improve his defensive game to be considered one of the top-5 defensive guys in the league. He scored 20 points in 66 games this year and that is Vlasic territory. He needs to probably double his production or further improve his already stellar defense before I use the term elite for him.

yes.

if posters want to start these type of threads they should be clearly outlining the parameters that they consider for such labels.

at least that way there is a common denominator starting point for the conversation.

otherwise the thread just ends up being a pointless cycle debate arguing over subjective terminology.

 

[RSeen]

He is already elite.

 

[TopShelfWaterBottle]

Top 5 defensive dman in the league already. if he could be a perennial 40-50pt guy Norris trophy wouldn't be out of the question

 

[Trap Jesus]

He's elite already, but he'd almost certainly need to get 50+ points to win the Norris, especially considering you have the likes of Karlsson/Burns/Hedman all putting up over 70 points right now. Since Orr broke the D-man points record in 1968/69 and really started to reshape what was expected of the position, Langway is the only D-man (Subban in the 2012/13 lockout season excluded) to win the Norris with under 50 points when he went back-to-back in the early 80s. Those two years stand as a true aberration in the voting history though. Even if you look at recent defense vs. offense debates like Chara vs. Green in 2009 or Doughty vs. Karlsson in 2016, they still got to 50 points.