How Many ECHL Teams are on Their Deathbeds?

[JMCx4]

Mariners are right now averaging roughly 2600. I know Comcast who owns them is pretty big but what the future like for them Maine Mariners [ECHL] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

**IF** the Mariners actually secured the parking revenues concessions in their lease agreement as described in this Feb 2018 article, that would soften some of the blow from attendance shortfalls. Though parking revenues would seem to trend with attendance numbers ... unless Comcast Spectacor has found a way to draw a non-hockey crowd to the garage on game nights.

Another arena lease-related thought for consideration: I couldn't immediately find web articles describing details of the Mariners-City of Portland agreement for Cross Insurance Arena (might be buried in a thread or six in this forum). But length-of-lease & timing of option years are often bellwethers for anticipating decision points in a hockey franchise moving forward in their current location.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

**IF** the Mariners actually secured the parking revenues concessions in their lease agreement as described in this Feb 2018 article, that would soften some of the blow from attendance shortfalls. Though parking revenues would seem to trend with attendance numbers ... unless Comcast Spectacor has found a way to draw a non-hockey crowd to the garage on game nights.

Another arena lease-related thought for consideration: I couldn't immediately find web articles describing details of the Mariners-City of Portland agreement for Cross Insurance Arena (might be buried in a thread or six in this forum). But length-of-lease & timing of option years are often bellwethers for anticipating decision points in a hockey franchise moving forward in their current location.

Hopefully Maine can find solid footing in the market. It would be tough for Worcester If Maine wasn’t there because they might be scheduled to play multiple home series against one opponent all weekend like Manchester did in 2015.

 

[hurricanesfan123]

Interesting, hopefully, Maine can pick it up because it wouldnt be good for the north division when Brampton folds and Maine possibly.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Interesting, hopefully, Maine can pick it up because it wouldnt be good for the north division when Brampton folds and Maine possibly.

It really isn't good for hockey in New England if the echl doesn't have a Presence in the market there isn't any ahl options anymore. Unlike years ago 15+ years ago where if a team or Affiliate pulls out there was always a Colorado,San Jose,Columbus or Arizona type NHL team who need's an affiliate or is in a undesirable location.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

It really isn't good for hockey in New England if the echl doesn't have a Presence in the market there isn't any ahl options anymore. Unlike years ago 15+ years ago where if a team or Affiliate pulls out there was always a Colorado,San Jose,Columbus or Arizona type NHL team who need's an affiliate or is in a undesirable location.

It certainly isn't good for the league, but that doesn't necessarily mean hockey in New England will have to suffer. Hockey fans have gradually gravitated towards other local options before. If they have any hope of watching hockey again, it's their only option.

When the Lowell Devils were out of the picture, there was a big gap left open. But over the course of a few years, those fans joined the UMass-Lowell fanbase. The attendance almost doubled over the course of 5 years, and hockey in Lowell is much stronger than it was before. They are certainly out doing more in the community and growing hockey than the Lock Monsters/Devils ever did. Perhaps it's different in Boston area since there's just as many, if not more, townies and hockey fans as students at these games.

Hartford had some okay support for the Wolfpack for a while, but most of the hardcore Whalers fans are now UConn fans. UConn going to the XL Center brought them out in force, and they've had higher attendance than the Wolfpack for a while now. Every time I've been there, it's mostly people in over the age of 35 decked out in Whalers gear.

Manchester and Portland might be different since neither have an existing, high level and local alternative. But there is precedence for New England hockey fans finding other to fill the void.

 

[wildcat48]

Maine is not going anywhere anytime soon. They just announced the building is undergoing renovations to move the benches from one side to the other which the team is paying for. They are not going to make that investment if they are not staying.

 

[GindyDraws]

It'd be more interesting to compare Wheeling's costs to everyone else. The Central is pretty much a bus division, correct?

Well, yeah. Indy can go up I-69 (aka "The NAFTA Highway From Hell") to Fort Wayne, and I-74 to Cincinnati. Further up on the inappropriately numbered interstate can get them up to I-90/the Australian Indiana Toll Road, which can get you to Toledo to the East or going north and some other roads to Kalamazoo. Wheeling is the only outlier to our division, but they do have a built-in rivalry with Reading that's already been mentioned.

 

[mk80]

Maine is not going anywhere anytime soon. They just announced the building is undergoing renovations to move the benches from one side to the other which the team is paying for. They are not going to make that investment if they are not staying.

It's also easier when their ownership manages the arena. Even if they aren't exactly filling every seat they still can bring in half a building over the course of the season to sell concessions to.

 

[hurricanesfan123]

For now, the only team I think is done is Brampton. Team has lost millions using the cities money and attendance is declining every year

 

[sabremike]

Something to keep in mind for the future: it is widely believed that the new owners of the Danbury Arena intend on expanding it to roughly the 4.5-5k that would be big enough for ECHL. My wildest fantasy would be for them to get an ECHL team, cut a deal with Jimmy to get the IP and bring back the greatest team in the history of hockey YOUR DANBURY TRASHERS!!!!! First promotion: Chad Wagner Night!

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Something to keep in mind for the future: it is widely believed that the new owners of the Danbury Arena intend on expanding it to roughly the 4.5-5k that would be big enough for ECHL. My wildest fantasy would be for them to get an ECHL team, cut a deal with Jimmy to get the IP and bring back the greatest team in the history of hockey YOUR DANBURY TRASHERS!!!!! First promotion: Chad Wagner Night!

Greatest fraud in the history of minor league hockey, you mean. The Trashers only won as many games as they did because they cheated on the salary cap. And not to mention, got caught for it because their owner was a crook.

 

[sabremike]

Greatest fraud in the history of minor league hockey, you mean. The Trashers only won as many games as they did because they cheated on the salary cap. And not to mention, got caught for it because their owner was a crook.

Want to know a secret: EVERY SINGLE TEAM IN THE UHL THAT WASN'T TERRIBLE WAS DOING THE EXACT SAME THING. Would follow this up with a classic 102 line but don't feel like getting in hot water here so I'll pass.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Want to know a secret: EVERY SINGLE TEAM IN THE UHL THAT WASN'T TERRIBLE WAS DOING THE EXACT SAME THING. Would follow this up with a classic 102 line but don't feel like getting in hot water here so I'll pass.

That's because the UHL was a garbage league run by a glorified carnival barker. Where's the UHL and Richard Brosal now?

 

[CrazyEddie20]

And there's no way they're going to "expand" the DIA to 5,000 seats. It'd be far too costly if it could even be done. They'd be better off starting from scratch.

But yeah, let's keep believing every pie-in-the-sky-rumor because the hockey business is so great and every successful businessman loves throwing millions of dollars at investments that are almost guaranteed to lose money.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

I loved the UHL.

Apparently the Prowlers weren't cheating on the salary cap....they folded after players and staff not getting paid and bringing in replacement players.

Still, thought the UHL was much more exciting than today's AHL. Sure, the game has changed....not saying it's worse but it's not the same.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

The minor league hockey business model if difficult at best.

Unless you have NHL teams paying hockey ops salaries it's nearly impossible to balance the books.

Unless you're paying players 1960's /70's salaries of $200.00-275.00 per week, it just can't add up.

Wish it could.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

The minor league hockey business model if difficult at best.

Unless you have NHL teams paying hockey ops salaries it's nearly impossible to balance the books.

Unless you're paying players 1960's /70's salaries of $200.00-275.00 per week, it just can't add up.

Wish it could.

Even with an NHL team paying hockey ops salaries, it's nearly impossible.

Part of the problem is that teams are often purchased as a hobby or an investment in a pass-through taxation entity so a wealthy guy can have a smaller AGI come April 15. This doesn't incentivize owners to run the business with a goal of profitability.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Tone it down guys, please.

 

[bleedblue94]

There is some good insight and opinions in this thread, and looking through the discussion here I am curious to know what you think make some of the ECHL teams successful and what makes some fall short and struggle? I'm looking at more in the past 5-8 year than going back into the history of the league since so much has changed with minor pro hockey in the last few decades.

 

[JMCx4]

... I am curious to know what you think make some of the ECHL teams successful and what makes some fall short and struggle? ...

One word: Tradition. In the fanbases, and the ownerships, and the hometowns.

 

[bleedblue94]

One word: Tradition. In the fanbases, and the ownerships, and the hometowns.

Essentially hitting on community involvement, nostalgia, and true community connections? It seems like the ECHL can be a more entertaining game for certain markets and their community involvement models can be successful even in the older AHL markets that had their primetime in the 90s when player/community interactions were a major part of the league. The AHL has shifted so much that I wonder if the ECHL can give some of these cities what they want from that entertainment AND community connection. It seems that would be their bread and butter...

 

[JMCx4]

Essentially hitting on community involvement, nostalgia, and true community connections?

You could interpret my reply that-a-way. I wouldn't.

 

[bleedblue94]

You could interpret my reply that-a-way. I wouldn't.

Well could you spell it out for me then rather than leave me to guess which interpretation would be what you meant? If there is info you dont want to share publicly I would appreciate a pm even. I am trying to just get a legitimately better understanding of what is working in minor pro markets and what isnt. It is fascinating to see the evolution of the lower levels and the markets and what works where.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

IT might be a while to truly know what markets who opted out independent of what league will be in trouble going forward because it's a case to case basis.

 

[JMCx4]

You'd do better if members living in "ECHL territory" answered your original question. I was simply trying to stimulate the conversation. Tuesdays are slow around here.