How many Dmen would you put ahead of Orr *Based on Defence only*

[Killion]

...gap between Orr & Potvin overall isn't as far as some people think

Absolutely. Denis ranks right up there in the Pantheon of the greats and not far off Orr. Sam Pollock tried to make a deal with Torrey in 73 to grab him in the Draft but obviously no go. Potvin in his earlier days in the NHL had a bit of an attitude & mouth on him (even his own Islander team mates didnt appreciate a lot of it), in 76 claiming he & not Bobby Orr deserved the MVP pick but that Orr was selected for "sentimental reasons".

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Better than Chelios and about on the same level as Lidstrom. Stevens was probably better at shutting down a single player but didn't control the entire defensive zone as well as Lidstrom did in his prime (in part because Lidstrom was better at moving the puck either up ice or into a less threatening position).

funny, because i think on the level of pure defense, chelios is a little higher than the other two. in fact, i've often thought of peak '92 playoffs/'93 regular season chelios as the guy who could shut down a single player the way peak NJ stevens did, and control the entire defensive zone like peak 2000s lidstrom did, but at the same time.

haven't seen enough of orr to say whether peak chelios was better defensively, but among player i did see, he might be the best, with stevens, lidstrom, and bourque a little behind him, and pronger at his best a step behind those guys. langway was post-prime by the time i started seriously watching.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Doug Harvey is one who hasn't been mentioned yet that I rank ahead of Orr defensively.

Gotta think Langway has a good shot considering he was pretty much all defense.

Anyone have thoughts on Serge Savard?

Serge Savard may very well be the best defensive defenseman I've seen film on. Even better than Langway who I got to see a lot of as a Caps fan from the mid-80s on.

 

[thom]

If you go buy Scotty Bowman he has Savard ahead of Robinson on his list of top 100.Stats say no way but I think the Hc knows more than I.But like I said there is no way to prove Savard was that good because his stats say no

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

If you go buy Scotty Bowman he has Savard ahead of Robinson on his list of top 100.Stats say no way but I think the Hc knows more than I.But like I said there is no way to prove Savard was that good because his stats say no

But Robinson was a two-way defenseman rather than a defensive defenseman so of course numbers are going to favor him.

 

[thom]

You would have to analyse Savards games throughout his prime.Minutes played also was he on ice when a goal ahead.Penalty kill other small factors would need to be looked at closely.If someone on board can do this it might prove your point.By the way I have the utmost respect for savard but its tough to position him.Its a poor example but Kevin Lowe was a very good defencive defenceman and his numbers are somewhat similar to Savard.You could be right I just need more info

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

You would have to analyse Savards games throughout his prime.Minutes played also was he on ice when a goal ahead.Penalty kill other small factors would need to be looked at closely.If someone on board can do this it might prove your point.By the way I have the utmost respect for savard but its tough to position him.Its a poor example but Kevin Lowe was a very good defencive defenceman and his numbers are somewhat similar to Savard.You could be right I just need more info

Well there's a bit of a problem as defensive stats really weren't kept back then. Hell, ice time wasn't even tracked. And you can't look at offensive numbers (which were kept) and say it says anything about how good someone was defensively.

If Canadians1958 is about I'm sure he could add something here as he's seen much more of Savard in more detail than I have. My impressions are based off of a handful of game films I've seen from the '70s while Canadians1958 saw Savard live and several times a year.

 

[Big Phil]

Read much?

He's simply pointing out that Coffey wouldn't be a liability while protecting a one-goal lead. He's not saying that Coffey was better than Orr defensively (I don't think anyone would sign up to make that argument.)

thank you

and i'll reiterate that his point is that compared to the vast majority of d-men ever, i.e., not just against the top ten defensive guys ever, coffey wouldn't be the liability that received opinion often suggests he would be.

not sure why you're jumping down this throat, as you guys aren't talking about the same thing.

Right. All I said was in response to a post earlier that Orr regardless of someone possibly being better than him defensiveily, STILL wouldn't be someone you'd be scared of with a one goal lead to protect in the final minute. In other words you could trust Orr completely in that situation even if there may be a defenseman that could do it better (and there would be very few). I mentioned Coffey as sort of a sidebar in saying that even Coffey would be someone I'd feel safe with when the chips are down with a one goal lead despite the knocks he gets defensively. Not that Coffey is necessarily among the top defensive defensemen ever.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Serge Savard

Well there's a bit of a problem as defensive stats really weren't kept back then. Hell, ice time wasn't even tracked. And you can't look at offensive numbers (which were kept) and say it says anything about how good someone was defensively.

If Canadians1958 is about I'm sure he could add something here as he's seen much more of Savard in more detail than I have. My impressions are based off of a handful of game films I've seen from the '70s while Canadians1958 saw Savard live and several times a year.

Better defensively than Orr.Best defensively of the Big 3.See the 1969 Conn Smythe win before the two broken legs. Also evidenced by the success Team Canada had when he played in the 1972 Summit Series on International sized ice. Plus the Bruins with/without Orr could never apply constant offensive pressure against the Canadiens with Savard. Could play physical or finesse as situations dictated, on international, regulation or small rinks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l22FV4105p8

The difference between Serge Savard and Bobby Orr defensively is small but important.

Serge Savard was equally effective on RD and LD, similar to Doug Harvey. This allowed him to match-up defensively against a team's and a line's strength, be it RW or LW. Orr playing mainly RD was not used in the same fashion.

The other difference is one of defensive style. Bobby Orr was spectacular defensively - ragging the puck on the PK, blocking shots and transitioning to a dangerous rush. Serge Savard was simply efficient. Ice the puck on the PK,allow teammates to rest or change. Save energy for ES. Take away the shot and transition to an odd man rush - evidenced in the video above.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Better defensively than Orr.Best defensively of the Big 3.See the 1969 Conn Smythe win before the two broken legs. Also evidenced by the success Team Canada had when he played in the 1972 Summit Series on International sized ice. Plus the Bruins with/without Orr could never apply constant offensive pressure against the Canadiens with Savard. Could play physical or finesse as situations dictated, on international, regulation or small rinks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l22FV4105p8

The difference between Serge Savard and Bobby Orr defensively is small but important.

Serge Savard was equally effective on RD and LD, similar to Doug Harvey. This allowed him to match-up defensively against a team's and a line's strength, be it RW or LW. Orr playing mainly RD was not used in the same fashion.

The other difference is one of defensive style. Bobby Orr was spectacular defensively - ragging the puck on the PK, blocking shots and transitioning to a dangerous rush. Serge Savard was simply efficient. Ice the puck on the PK,allow teammates to rest or change. Save energy for ES. Take away the shot and transition to an odd man rush - evidenced in the video above.

The thing that's always struck me from watching the film was that Savard's positioning defensively was well nigh perfect from what I could see.

 

[Killion]

The thing that's always struck me from watching the film was that Savard's positioning defensively was well nigh perfect from what I could see.

Oh he was a Dandy alrighty, "The Minister of Defence". Excellent skater. Played the angles like a Professor. Busted his legs, both of them in I think 70 or 71 in Toronto which slowed him down a bit but he certainly rebounded quickly enough; a critical cog on Team Canada 72. When people debate who the best of the Big 3 in Montreal were, Savard, Lapointe or Robinson, I think the majority pick Larry Robinson though Savard is a very close second, Id say better defensively & certainly a better skater. Guy Lapointe as well a tremendous talent & excellent skater, dangerous offensively... and of course who could ever forget Danny Gallivans wonderful coining of the phrase with his "Savardian Spin-O-Rama".... but... still goin with Orr here guys.