How long before Shero feels the pressure? Fire Shero?

[McDuffz88]

I will start off by saying I did like Shero's off season. He did some good trades for us & got us a good young core. But I think his loyalty to Hynes is getting out of hand. Its like Shero didn't learn his lesson from when he got fired from the penguins for the whole coach situation. I don't want Shero gone yet but I feel like if we don't start putting pressure on him then he will never fire Hynes. We need a new coach even if the season is toast. That way atleast we can see what our team looks like with a different look & build from there & maybe find a better coach in off season.

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[Richer's Ghost]

my summary:



And if he can't see it - he's part of the problem.

 

[Devilcake]

I really wish that shero does something about our coachingstaff soon but i believe he will wait until the end of the season

 

[TBF1972]

How long until you hold him accountable? Obviously NOW or since he is in his position.

Or was the question, if he should get fired?

 

[Auto Pilot]

He should really be fired if he keeps Hynes the rest of the season. Absolutely mind blowing that he is still sticking with him.

 

[Ripshot 43]

If your asking me, the fan it’s now.

If your asking ownership, they and Shero may have had a different plan that they aren’t going to broadcast to the fan base.

 

[hidek91]

I see a lot of overreactions in this thread and the poll. While I've lost my faith in Hynes, I think that Shero has had overall positive impact during his tenure here and while I think that Hynes shouldn't be our head coach, come October 2020, I still have lots of faith in Ray Shero and here's why:

1) The roster he inherited after 2014-15 was atrocious and had almost no legitimate prospects due to the way Lou managed this team. The best scorer of this team in that season was Adam Henrique with 43 points. Btw. emotional posters on this forum seem to ignore "the roster factor", while criticizing coaches, heavily criticized DeBoer went to SJS and made SCF there.

2) The second point is similar to the first point but to me it's quite clear that it was roster quality that was the issue, not Hynes. In his first season Hynes achieved 84 pts with awful roster. In next 3 years, there were playoffs once and very bad seasons twice but you couldn't honestly consider the pieces he had to work with as good. This is the first season where you could say that Hynes' team is underachieving compared to the roster quality but the sample size is too small and this roster isn't top 10 in the NHL on paper, I'd say it's a bubble team. I agree that this season Hynes hasn't been solution but he's not the main problem (roster quality is), therefore firing Hynes wouldn't magically turn this team into contender. Not to mention that the legitimate candidates to replace him aren't available.

3) While I criticized Mueller and Grabner trades (not in the hindsight but at the moment they were made) due to the fact that we've overpaid for the first one and weren't in the position to give up Rykov + 2nd for a rental, I have to say that Shero has done decent job in trades. Palms? Great steal. Hallsy? Another steal. Vatanen? Win-win that was very reasonable move. Gusev? Gamble that made sense given that we had the cap space. Subban? Former Vezina d-man on a team that desperately needed help. There were no long-term FA signings that would handcuff us to brutal contracts, there was no gambling with the future (a'la Lou and his Cory trade), there was and still is a patient rebuild (except this Grabner trade but I'm going to forgive one mistake and hope Shero learns from that).

4) Now, if you compare the roster in 2015 and the roster we have now, you have to admit he has done fantastic job. Is this roster competitive already? No, it's not. Hischier, Hughes and Zacha still need more seasoning. Hall may not be the leader we thought he'd become but if you're offered Hall for Larsson, you have no choice but to accept it. I think there are some issues with Hall (read Ference's opinion about the toxic culture that was in EDM) but if there were no issues with Hall, Chiarelli would keep him. Subban is past his peak but if he wasn't, we wouldn't get him so cheap etc.

To sum it up, people who think that you could turn a team that was worse than expansion team in 2015 into a legit contender in 4 years are delusional. Lou left this team in an absolutely awful state and is #1 reason why we are still in the rebuild. Refusing to rebuild after Kovalchuk left was a mistake and compared to late Lou, Shero is doing a good job imo.

 

[Camille the Eel]

Also a GM does more than manage the team on the ice. He’s also responsible for the franchise, the brand and the business - the job description varies a little depending on the responsibilities of other front office staff. And here Shero has done heroic duty in getting the team really established in its new arena and location, increasing ticket sales and season tix (I believe), bringing in a younger, family friendly crowd, getting social media involved, and generally changing the dinosaur culture inherited from Lou into something more contemporary. I imagine the bottom line monetarily is much improved - that crucial criterion of a club, we are more financially healthy and the franchise is worth a good deal more today than when the current group bought it. And then there’s also the farm system, scouting, and rest of the staff, trainers, equipment, facilities. Payroll management too. All much improved and brought into the 21st century.

They will have no interest in firing Ray.

 

[Ripshot 43]

I’ve loved everything Shero has done... with the one exception of letting Hynes get the same results day in and day out.

Curious to if Ray and the owners have already agreed to just let this season play out and either get another high draft pick and then hire a new coach or let Hynes and co dig out of the basement and still end up with a 10ish overall pick.

 

[NJDevs26]

How long until you hold him accountable? Obviously NOW or since he is in his position.

Or was the question, if he should get fired?

Yeah I read the question as merely holding him accountable and giving him his share of blame for the mess the team's in but not neccesarily wanting him out of a job per se. He should be accountable each second forward this staff continues to have a job but I wouldn't want to fire Shero at least until he makes his deadline trades this year lol. I'm probably still a long way off from actually wanting to fire him but man, the honeymoon's over now.

 

[Call Me Al]

If your asking me, the fan it’s now.

If your asking ownership, they and Shero may have had a different plan that they aren’t going to broadcast to the fan base.

i very seriously doubt the owners plan is to spend $9m on pk subban and $5m on simmonds and trade a bunch of picks only to be just as bad as they would have been not spending that much and lose taylor hall on top of that

 

[Ol Dirty Bstrd]

Ray has definitely done more good than bad and was handcuffed by a barren roster but he has 3 pretty major flaws that are becoming clear:

1. Poor roster construction/lack of identity. We are incredibly small and soft. As pumped as I was for the Goose trade he is a square peg in a round hole. Ray’s MO is to bring in talent at all costs while ignoring team fit. This was much needed when he first took over but is now becoming a problem. Say what you will about Lou but he is a master at this. The culture we were founded on is a distant memory.

2. Inability to find steady defensemen, especially ones that are reliable in their own end. This ties in with the first point - we have way too many ‘offensive’ defensemen (most of whom aren’t even great at that) and not many who are good in their own zone. Other than the Vatanen trade he has failed miserably here. I don’t have much faith in his drafting at this position either. Decisions like taking McLeod with all those defensemen on the board because we ‘needed a forward’ compound the problem

3. Loyalty to the head coach. This goes back to his Pittsburgh days. This team has been a train wreck since last November and Ray is just sitting on his hands. Patience is needed as a GM but this is getting absurd

 

[britdevil]

I'd say his seat it's unexpectedly warm.

 

[JimEIV]

Ray has definitely done more good than bad and was handcuffed by a barren roster but he has 3 pretty major flaws that are becoming clear:

1. Poor roster construction/lack of identity. We are incredibly small and soft. As pumped as I was for the Goose trade he is a square peg in a round hole. Ray’s MO is to bring in talent at all costs while ignoring team fit. This was much needed when he first took over but is now becoming a problem. Say what you will about Lou but he is a master at this. The culture we were founded on is a distant memory.

2. Inability to find steady defensemen, especially ones that are reliable in their own end. This ties in with the first point - we have way too many ‘offensive’ defensemen (most of whom aren’t even great at that) and not many who are good in their own zone. Other than the Vatanen trade he has failed miserably here. I don’t have much faith in his drafting at this position either. Decisions like taking McLeod with all those defensemen on the board because we ‘needed a forward’ compound the problem

3. Loyalty to the head coach. This goes back to his Pittsburgh days. This team has been a train wreck since last November and Ray is just sitting on his hands. Patience is needed as a GM but this is getting absurd

Well done. This is a very good post.

Although with this perfect outline of issues, I do find it hard to understand how your first sentence coincides with the rest of the post.

"Ray has definitely done more good than bad" - but built a horrible team with no vision? Seems contradictory at the core level?

 

[Tretyak 20]

If I was one of the owners, I wouldn't make a GM change until the end of the season. If Shero fires the dud by around June 1st, he can stay. If not, Fitz gets a promotion - on the condition that he fires the three stooges.

 

[Ol Dirty Bstrd]

Well done. This is a very good post.

Although with this perfect outline of issues, I do find it hard to understand how your first sentence coincides with the rest of the post.

"Ray has definitely done more good than bad" - but built a horrible team with no vision? Seems contradictory at the core level?

I just think it was a monumental task given what he was left to work with. The Hall trade was an absolute coup. The Palmieri and Vatanen trades were great as well. Johansson deal was solid even though it didn’t work out. Subban was a worthy gamble, I thought Goose was too at the time but in hindsight is not what we needed. He has not bogged us down with any stupid long term contracts. He’s gotten solid returns at the deadline for the pieces we’ve sold off. He has restocked the prospect pool decently but I’m not as high on his drafting as others probably are (really didn’t like this last class although it’s obviously way too early to tell)

That being said, the excuse of what he inherited wears off at some point and I think that time is just about here

 

[217 Forever]

I just think it was a monumental task given what he was left to work with. The Hall trade was an absolute coup. The Palmieri and Vatanen trades were great as well. Johansson deal was solid even though it didn’t work out. Subban was a worthy gamble, I thought Goose was too at the time but in hindsight is not what we needed. He has not bogged us down with any stupid long term contracts. He’s gotten solid returns at the deadline for the pieces we’ve sold off. He has restocked the prospect pool decently but I’m not as high on his drafting as others probably are (really didn’t like this last class although it’s obviously way too early to tell)

That being said, the excuse of what he inherited wears off at some point and I think that time is just about here

Something changed with this team after the 4-0 start last year. They've just never recovered. Injuries obviously played a part last year but it is pretty clearly more than that. There just should not be this type of regression. Either he can't figure out the issue(s) or is too hesitant to try and resolve them. Either way it's on the GM.

 

[Ripshot 43]

i very seriously doubt the owners plan is to spend $9m on pk subban and $5m on simmonds and trade a bunch of picks only to be just as bad as they would have been not spending that much and lose taylor hall on top of that

They definitely were attempting to take the next step but I mean after the fact (where we are now). Maybe Ray has sold to the owners that there isn’t a better coach out there and we may as well go along for the ride till the offseason.

 

[mtnet]

I'm not ready for him to be fired just yet but I definitely hold him accountable NOW for sticking by this travesty behind the bench

gtfo with that "did some good things" horseshit

 

[The Joker]

I just think it was a monumental task given what he was left to work with. The Hall trade was an absolute coup. The Palmieri and Vatanen trades were great as well. Johansson deal was solid even though it didn’t work out. Subban was a worthy gamble, I thought Goose was too at the time but in hindsight is not what we needed. He has not bogged us down with any stupid long term contracts. He’s gotten solid returns at the deadline for the pieces we’ve sold off. He has restocked the prospect pool decently but I’m not as high on his drafting as others probably are (really didn’t like this last class although it’s obviously way too early to tell)

That being said, the excuse of what he inherited wears off at some point and I think that time is just about here

Shero lucked out big time with the lottery. This team would look pretty ugly without it. He gets applauded for acquiring talent but what REALLY is there? What is there besides Hughes and Hischier we can look forward to the next years? Without our two 1st OAs our prospect pool looks like bottom of the league. McLeod is disappointing, Smith hasn't looked good in Training Camp... And what else is there (that sets us apart from the other teams?)

He traded for talent like Palmieri, Hall and Vatanen in a time where we should rebuild and completely focus on that. He brought in Subban (and Gusev) because he completely botched the evaluation of this roster.

And on top of that he holds on to a coach who is completely in over his head.

And when I say he lucked out in the lottery, he certainly did, but Hischier, as much as like him, is not what you expect out of a 1st OA. I hope he can find another gear offensively soon.

There isn't too much right now making me feel optimistic for the next few years. Might need to draft high again once or twice. I don't know if I want Shero doing that though.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Keeping John Hynes is the only major blemish to Shero's resume.

That said, I do realize this is a bit like saying the Maginot Line was the only major blemish to France's defensive strategy.

 

[217 Forever]

Shero lucked out big time with the lottery. This team would look pretty ugly without it. He gets applauded for acquiring talent but what REALLY is there? What is there besides Hughes and Hischier we can look forward to the next years? Without our two 1st OAs our prospect pool looks like bottom of the league. McLeod is disappointing, Smith hasn't looked good in Training Camp... And what else is there (that sets us apart from the other teams?)

He traded for talent like Palmieri, Hall and Vatanen in a time where we should rebuild and completely focus on that. He brought in Subban (and Gusev) because he completely botched the evaluation of this roster.

And on top of that he holds on to a coach who is completely in over his head.

And when I say he lucked out in the lottery, he certainly did, but Hischier, as much as like him, is not what you expect out of a 1st OA. I hope he can find another gear offensively soon.

There isn't too much right now making me feel optimistic for the next few years. Might need to draft high again once or twice. I don't know if I want Shero doing that though.

That's just it though. You don't get measured by the names on your roster. You get measured by W's and L's otherwise the "talent" is meaningless.

 

[hidek91]

Shero lucked out big time with the lottery. This team would look pretty ugly without it. He gets applauded for acquiring talent but what REALLY is there? What is there besides Hughes and Hischier we can look forward to the next years? Without our two 1st OAs our prospect pool looks like bottom of the league. McLeod is disappointing, Smith hasn't looked good in Training Camp... And what else is there (that sets us apart from the other teams?)

I do agree with you that his drafting hasn't been perfect thus far but I'd give him more time. Given that he has joined right before 2015 draft, the first draft that he had full impact on was 2016 draft. Still lots of time needs to pass before we judge last drafts.

He traded for talent like Palmieri, Hall and Vatanen in a time where we should rebuild and completely focus on that. He brought in Subban (and Gusev) because he completely botched the evaluation of this roster.

I disagree on both points.

Getting solid players didn't undermine the rebuild. I believe that Palmieri is worth more than what we paid for him while he was much younger. Finding a gem like Palmieri in Anaheim's bottom six is a move that you do no matter if you're contender or rebuilding team, the guy has obvious flaws (passing, stickhandling, hockey IQ) but there's a commitment and hockey IQ that sets good example for young players (imagine Zacha having compete level of Palms). You'd be foolish not to do Hall for Larsson. The end of Hall saga is quite sad indeed but what would we achieve by keeping incosistent #3D over star forward with less than stellar mentality? Vatanen is the most obvious win because he gave up Henrique, which was smart because we needed defence over 2nd line forward and Henrique had 1 year less on his contract. Would you be OK paying the contract ANA paid to a player that is low-end #2C? Could you imagine our defence without Vatanen?

Bringing in Subban was very smart because our defence consisted of:
- Andy Greene, past his prime, isn't top 4 anymore
- Sami Vatanen - #2-3D but not really an option as #1D
- Severson - #3-4D with good offence but sometimes awful defensively
- Butcher - 3rd pair D, offensive specialist, has hockey IQ but has no size and no speed.

I won't even talk about likes of Mueller, Carrick and Santini. This defence is still bad IMO but would be absolutely awful without Subban. When it comes to Gusev, I think that it was worth a try (a'la Palmieri or Johansson), the guy produced really well in KHL and the fact that his transition was bad so far couldn't have been predicted.

The same people who criticize his moves now are the ones who would criticize him for not doing his best to keep Hall here.

And on top of that he holds on to a coach who is completely in over his head.

And when I say he lucked out in the lottery, he certainly did, but Hischier, as much as like him, is not what you expect out of a 1st OA. I hope he can find another gear offensively soon.

There isn't too much right now making me feel optimistic for the next few years. Might need to draft high again once or twice. I don't know if I want Shero doing that though.

I do agree with you but I can easily see 60 pt two way forward potential in Hischier which could be fantastic as #2C behind Hughes. I agree that we are still rebuilding and still need to add lots of pieces, it feels like we need to build the blue line from scratch but it's better to do that than accelerate the rebuild like Buffalo did few years ago.[/quote]

 

[jkrdevil]

If he stubbornly sticks with Hynes and lets Hall walk for nothing then his seat will get hot. The pressure will be on regardless. Rebuild 1 with Hall as a centerpiece looks to be a failure, that means rebuild two has go smoothly and quickly.

 

[Call Me Al]

is there a single player on the roster that we can say the coach is getting the most out of? ray has to be aware of this situation and if he is ok with it then yes he should start to feel some heat