How important is coaching in the WCH?

[kunekune]

Superb coaching in Europe is the reason why NHL and European leagues are at the similar level despite NHL having superb invidiual skill level.

 

[Monaakko]

Superb coaching in Europe is the reason why NHL and European leagues are at the similar level despite NHL having superb invidiual skill level.

I'm not entirely sure that's true. I think it's more to do with the fact that it's easier to build a team identity and set up a game plan with an inferior roster rather than some tactical superiority. Basically: it's harder to coach superstars than scrubs. That's not to say that the european coaches aren't good or have no tactical know-how, but if they had discovered some mysterious superior hockey systems they would have been adopted in the NHL too.

 

[kunekune]

I'm not entirely sure that's true. I think it's more to do with the fact that it's easier to build a team identity and set up a game plan with an inferior roster rather than some tactical superiority. Basically: it's harder to coach superstars than scrubs. That's not to say that the european coaches aren't good or have no tactical know-how, but if they had discovered some mysterious superior hockey systems they would have been adopted in the NHL too.

I've never been in or even near a NHL team so everything is just hear-say, but what I've heard from several NHL players in that there is NO coaching in NHL.

Coaches dont really even tell any tactics to players. They just show up to the game and roll the lines the way they see it the best. That's NHL coaching. The way coaches run the show in Europe isnt even from the same universe.

Dont know if it changes in the playoffs but regular season is all about the show and not about the quality of the game.

 

[Monaakko]

I've never been in or even near a NHL team so everything is just hear-say, but what I've heard from several NHL players in that there is NO coaching in NHL.

Coaches dont really even tell any tactics to players. They just show up to the game and roll the lines the way they see it the best. That's NHL coaching. The way coaches run the show in Europe isnt even from the same universe.

Dont know if it changes in the playoffs but regular season is all about the show and not about the quality of the game.

Well I think the NHL coaching might be more focused on individual performance, special teams and set plays as well as more general ideas of how to play the game, whereas in Europe there can be much more focus on specific aspects of the game (breakouts, forecheck, trapping), not that they are entirely disregarded in the NHL either. As a rule though I think the better quality of player the less specific the coaching (at least with regard to play in the offensive zone), just general ideas of where to attack from (i.e. point shots vs. setting up scoring chances in the slot or from cross ice passes). If you look at defensive systems in the NHL they are clearly coached with how you set up, how aggressive you are etc.

Edit: regarding NHL coaching developing chemistry and finding line combinations also seems like more important compared to European coaching

 

[QnebO]

For me it is important also for weak teams like Italy. The coach did not realized how big the difference was between his team and Switzerland and did not make the team ready to deal with the difference (i.e. being always concentrated, playing defensively as well as possible, protecting the own goaltender). The disappointing loss in the first game and the lack of players with leadership in the team may have a tremendous impact on the whole WC.

I remember that our Stars didint like Jalonens coching back in day. Maybe they should hav, and we could have many golds now. Jalonen is about worlds best coch. Been for long time

Old jalonen did too much slow breakout, modern jalonen is perfection. Its beaty, skill allowed, players can do what it takes. forecheck defense everything done with heart, 100% sisu and effrt, and together

 

[RageQuit77]

Old jalonen did too much slow breakout, modern jalonen is perfection.

That's true. Its also a sign of excellent coach. To be able to continuously relearn things and develop also coach's own insight and skill. This team is the creation and piece of art of Jalonen, he is the real demiurge now.

Sure there must be some kind clash of coaching cultures when NHL players participate, but I don't see it bad thing if the coach have full control to his game plan and utilization of individual players. This team probably have very little player-coach ego problems, they surely listen and take it to their hearts whenever Jalonen says what he think and how he want them to play. They are now also fully aware that their coach plans aren't hollow, by their own performances in this tournament.

 

[hyperion]

For example yesterday Czech lost at least 98% because of their coaching. That long breakaway pass strategy just didn't work at all against Canada, still they kept doing it repeatedly and systemically. It was clearly intended approach to the game. If it was the players' idea to do that repeatedly coach should have stepped in and said 'no'. If it was coach's idea, he should have changed it ASAP. If it was nobody's idea and it was just happening, that's on the coach too.

 

[Monaakko]

I think the most important aspects in which the coaching of the european teams has an advantage over their NA counterparts is in the fact that they generally have coaches with long tenures and established systems, so they have a head start. This is evidenced by the fact that NA teams usually struggle early in the tournament and improve towards the end. I've never really understood why they don't just hire permanent coaches and implement a (semi-)permanent system that is tweaked based on the players available rather than start from scratch every time.

 

[paragon]

This is evidenced by the fact that NA teams usually struggle early in the tournament and improve towards the end. I've never really understood why they don't just hire permanent coaches and implement a (semi-)permanent system that is tweaked based on the players available rather than start from scratch every time.

I think that has more to do with the vacation aspect of the WHC. North American players party hard and chase European chicks at the start of the tournament, they don't take things seriously until later in the tournament.

 

[NyQuil]

How important is coaching period?

I did some research about 5 years on this looking for academic literature and studies on the subject in relation to the Canucks changing out AV.

The answer appears to be coaching has a minimal impact at best.

This gives a decent overview but I would invite people yo do their own research and look at the literature.

Is Changing the Coach Really the Answer? - Freakonomics

Basketball is the worst "team" sport there is.

I could coach the Golden State Warriors to a championship.

The NBA is the last place I would look to try and generate conclusions on the importance of coaching.

It's the most roster/talent dependent team sport I can think of.

EDIT: Ok, I read the article - there are examples in other sports. Interesting.

Here's the hockey info:

But this story goes beyond soccer. Back in 2006, Rick Audas, John Goddard, and W. Glenn Rowe looked at coaching in the NHL. As these authors note in their conclusion, they also failed to find evidence that changing a coach helps a team win more games.

The effect of a change of coach on team performance in the NHL has been estimated in a parametric model, also based on match-level data. Ordered probit regression has been used to represent the discrete and hierarchical structure of the ‘win-tie-lose’ match-results-dependent variable. The use of lagged match results data provides a control for the phenomenon of mean-reversion in team performance. The empirical results suggest teams that changed their coach within-season tended to perform worse subsequently in the short term than those that did not. However, the detrimental effect appears to be short-lived, and over a longer time horizon the effect is almost neutral. In the broader context of the debate concerning the managerial influence on organizational performance, the results suggest that a change of management in the midst of a crisis is unlikely to improve performance by more than might have been expected through the natural tendency for mean-reversion after a spell of poor performance.

It's a bit of a funny conclusion.

A team that sucks fires their coach and then they don't get better right away when a new coach comes in.

 

[Stubu]

Very, very important.

 

[Outofbodyinhungary]

Very important. Especially such thing as the coach learning the language of the players!

 

[Garbox]

I remember that our Stars didint like Jalonens coching back in day. Maybe they should hav, and we could have many golds now. Jalonen is about worlds best coch. Been for long time

Old jalonen did too much slow breakout, modern jalonen is perfection. Its beaty, skill allowed, players can do what it takes. forecheck defense everything done with heart, 100% sisu and effrt, and together

That phase of "old Jalonen's" game was needed though. It was at the beginning of a process where they started to create a national game identity for Finland. I think the base of it was Pekka Virta's system in Kuopio and Jalonen started to adjust that. The key fundaments of that system (i.e. controlling the puck and attack only when organized) were then implemented by at least most teams in Finland (starting from juniors). The system has been evolved by many coaches since then and now the game has those same fundaments in it, but the players have learned to instinctively regognize the situations when to attack and when to regroup, so the players are now more in charge on ice (meaning that the first option is always to counter attack, but not 1 on 3 etc.). And the players also now can read the game better and react to it in advance (unpredictable bounces still cause troubles of course), so the gaps are in better control and the players are in many ways more on the same page.

All of that is a production of coaching and most importantly analysed and planned coahcing. It sure would be interesting to see Jalonen or Kivi or some other modern Finn coach in the NHL. This system would need tweaking of course, but could they find the needed path? Jarmo, when does Torts' contract end?

 

[BL92]

JJ 200+ IQ confirmed.

 

[Garbox]

Apparently Jalonen said this in some English interview (of course the Finnish media that mercily informed us about this couldn't provide any links to the source for an original version, so I'll try to translate it).

"Ihan kuten NHL:ssä. Miksi Boston Bruins ja St. Louis Blues ovat finaaleissa? Olen nähnyt molempien pelaavan tällä kaudella, eikä se ole yllätys minulle. Molemmilla on omat parhaat pelaajansa kyllä, mutta heitä ei peluuteta liikaa. Molemmat ovat neljän ketjun joukkueita, kovaa työtä tekeviä joukkueita. Ehkä heillä on joitain supertähtiä, mutta ei samalla tavalla kuin muilla, Jalonen sanoi."

" Just like in the NHL. Why are Boston and St. Louis in the finals? I've seen both of them play this season and I'm not surprised. Both teams have their best playera for sure, but they don't run them into the ground. Both are teams with four lines, hard working teams. Maybe they have some superstars, but not like some others, said Jalonen."

Before this he had said that you couldn't play the style Finns played if some players were playing over 20mins and some 8mins. You have to even up the ice time to be able to contain pressure.

Maurice, any thoughts on this?

 

[RageQuit77]

Maurice, any thoughts on this?

Its not only about Maurice, almost every NHL head coach can take that Jalonen's obvious lesson to their hearts.

Managers can manage their budgets better too, when they don't have to struggle with 10M egos.

Union will benefit too, as the idea of union would realize better on the level of pay-grades.

WIN-WIN-WIN

Why Jukka Jalonen still coach in Europe? Artificer of the art available.

 

[BL92]

Shush Jalonen, don't reveal our secrets

 

[Garbox]

Shush Jalonen, don't reveal our secrets

He already did, they won you know

 

[RageQuit77]

Shush Jalonen, don't reveal our secrets

Haha. I only hope General Jalonen would make his well deserved millions too before retiring to some esteemed administrative, leadership duties in the IIHF or some equivalent organisation like IOC.

He needs only some time, and trusted lieutenants with him. Results will follow almost automatically.

With him automatically comes also better European scouting, in these NHL scenarios.

 

[BL92]

Haha. I only hope General Jalonen would make his well deserved millions too before retiring to some esteemed administrative, leadership duties in the IIHF or some equivalent organisation like IOC.

He needs only some time, and trusted lieutenants with him. Results will follow almost automatically.

With him automatically comes also better European scouting, in these NHL scenarios.

But before that: MORE GOLD!