How high were Mario Lemieux's rookie expectations?

[baudib1]

McDavid's skills are otherworldly but he has quite a ways to go to be in the conversation with Gretzky and Lemieux, IMO. First off, I do think he has to prove he is definitively better than Crosby, who's slightly past his peak, and Kucherov. It's very possible that he is or will be but Gretzky and Lemieux left no doubt.

I do think McDavid would have been an easy 150-point scorer in the late 80s.

Mario just looked like he could do whatever he wanted on the ice. The best comparison is Jordan in his prime or LeBron really.

 

[The Panther]

I think if you put McDavid as he today on those Edmonton teams from the early 80's, he'd have multiple 200+ point seasons

Who cares?

There is no value in speculating how players from one era would do if time-warped (with their equipment) to another era. For example: If Brayden Point was time-warped to 1945, maybe he would score more goals than Maurice Richard.

But what does this prove?

 

[GlitchMarner]

Who cares?

There is no value in speculating how players from one era would do if time-warped (with their equipment) to another era. For example: If Brayden Point was time-warped to 1945, maybe he would score more goals than Maurice Richard.

But what does this prove?

Yeah, you may as well say a star player from 2049 would be able to completely destroy the current NHL. Who the hell cares? People only speculate about current players because their names are known; the same logic applies to unknown future players as well, however. The present is not the pinnacle of hockey.

 

[Studz]

McDavids skillset is otherworldly. Much like 66 and 99 before him. Since its 2019 yes I consider him the most advanced player of all time.

lol, Jack Hughes and Kakko Kappo must be more advanced then McDavid then. I will give you the fact that they wear the most advanced equipment of all time.

 

[McFlash97]

lol, Jack Hughes and Kakko Kappo must be more advanced then McDavid then. I will give you the fact that they wear the most advanced equipment of all time.

What an idiotic point. McDavid is barely 3 and half years older then either and plays in the same era.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I don't care how big bad and tough the NHL has become: neither prime Gretzky nor prime Lemieux would be beaten in the scoring race—ever (assuming no injury). Crosby and McDavid were beaten.

Gretzky and Lemieux are not losing an Art Ross to Kucherov. It's not happening.

 

[The Panther]

What an idiotic point. McDavid is barely 3 and half years older then either and plays in the same era.

Okay... and Gretzky destroyed Mario in head-to-head games, and Mario was Crosby's teammate.

So, your point was....?

 

[McFlash97]

Okay... and Gretzky destroyed Mario in head-to-head games, and Mario was Crosby's teammate.

So, your point was....?

Gretzky destroyed Mario because he was better head to head.

 

[Studz]

What an idiotic point. McDavid is barely 3 and half years older then either and plays in the same era.

So we are in agreement, your comment about year drafted making you the most "advanced" player of all time was idiotic.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

McDavids skillset is otherworldly. Much like 66 and 99 before him. Since its 2019 yes I consider him the most advanced player of all time.

I don't think you understand how dominant Lemieux was. There is no one in the NHL today comparable. Points per game numbers in the 90s:

Lemieux 2.06
Gretzky 1.37
Lindros 1.35
Jagr 1.32
Lafontaine 1.30

1990s NHL Scoring Leaders

 

[scott clam]

I can give two reasons why Lemieux would have more hype and expectations.

1. Because of what he did in Juniors, breaking records. We also knew of McDavid at a young age (probably younger than Lemeiux because the media is better at these things today), but as they got closer to the NHL, I think Lemieux pulls away from McDavid performance wise, so the hype (at least for the time) gets bigger and crazier.

2. He's like Gretzky with more size. Lemieux is the closest thing to Gretzky with the immeasurable stuff - skill, sense, anticipation. Players back then were also a bit smaller than players of today, so Lemieux's size advantage becomes amplified. Even in today's NHL, Lemieux would still be considered a pretty big player. McDavid is known for his speed, but today's players are generally pretty fast anyways. Lemieux's natural advantages were more beneficial to him back then, than McDavid's are now.

For a forward Lemieux would be considered gigantic in today's game. I believe the man is closer to 6'5" than the 6'4" he's listed at.

 

[JianYang]

Did Mario even have anyone to play with until the late 80s. That's when Coffey joined Pittsburgh, then they finally got loaded in the early 90s, but it seems like the pens didn't have much prior to that.

 

[The Panther]

Did Mario even have anyone to play with until the late 80s. That's when Coffey joined Pittsburgh, then they finally got loaded in the early 90s, but it seems like the pens didn't have much prior to that.

Don't forget "Scorin'" Warren Young, whom Sports Illustrated said (in January '85) might better be the rookie of the year over Lemieux, and that he was helping Lemieux to be better.

No, I'm not making this up.

 

[Boxscore]

I don't care how big bad and tough the NHL has become: neither prime Gretzky nor prime Lemieux would be beaten in the scoring race—ever (assuming no injury). Crosby and McDavid were beaten.

Gretzky and Lemieux are not losing an Art Ross to Kucherov. It's not happening.

This is true. Mario playing 66 games, edges Kucherov by 20+

 

[Boxscore]

I don't think you understand how dominant Lemieux was. There is no one in the NHL today comparable. Points per game numbers in the 90s:

Lemieux 2.06
Gretzky 1.37
Lindros 1.35
Jagr 1.32
Lafontaine 1.30

1990s NHL Scoring Leaders

True story.

I honestly feel bad for those who weren't able to see Mario in his prime. I've watched the greats from the late-70s on, and NOBODY was scarier on the ice than Mario IMO. Gretzky was close, but Mario terrified me as an opposing fan. The crazy thing about Mario was--even though I am a Flyers fan who hated playing against him--I was so in awe of his skills that I not only respected him but loved him as a player. He was a true artist that--skills wise--was a level above the rest. The closest today is McDavid, who is a whole tier behind him IMHO.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I don't think you understand how dominant Lemieux was. There is no one in the NHL today comparable. Points per game numbers in the 90s:

Lemieux 2.06
Gretzky 1.37
Lindros 1.35
Jagr 1.32
Lafontaine 1.30

1990s NHL Scoring Leaders

Misleading. Lemieux peaked in the late-1980s and early-1990s, when scoring was much higher than in the dead puck era (starting from the 1996-1997 season, the year he "conveniently" retired, saving himself from having his 1990s PPG numbers lowered).

Jagr had many peak seasons in the dead puck era, which would have given him much higher PPG numbers if they had occurred in the early-1990s.

Gretzky was already past his prime in the 1990s.

Lindros played only 4 seasons pre-dead puck era, including his rookie season, and his decline started before the end of the 1990s.

Pat Lafontaine was a great player but far from the caliber of the rest of this list.

Not denying Lemieux was much better than all those players, but those numbers are misleading.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Misleading. Lemieux peaked in the late-1980s and early-1990s, when scoring was much higher than in the dead puck era (starting from the 1996-1997 season, the year he "conveniently" retired, saving himself from having his 1990s PPG numbers lowered).

Jagr had many peak seasons in the dead puck era, which would have given him much higher PPG numbers if they had occurred in the early-1990s.

Gretzky was already past his prime in the 1990s.

Lindros played only 4 seasons pre-dead puck era, including his rookie season, and his decline started before the end of the 1990s.

Pat Lafontaine was a great player but far from the caliber of the rest of this list.

Not denying Lemieux was much better than all those players, but those numbers are misleading.

Even if you take Lemieux's 2000-03 numbers and use those to exptrapolate the years he missed in the 90s, he's still far, far ahead of everyone else.

 

[scott clam]

Even if you take Lemieux's 2000-03 numbers and use those to exptrapolate the years he missed in the 90s, he's still far, far ahead of everyone else.

Only because Jagr was miserable in Washington though...

Edit: oh wait, I see what you done there.

 

[JianYang]

Misleading. Lemieux peaked in the late-1980s and early-1990s, when scoring was much higher than in the dead puck era (starting from the 1996-1997 season, the year he "conveniently" retired, saving himself from having his 1990s PPG numbers lowered).

Jagr had many peak seasons in the dead puck era, which would have given him much higher PPG numbers if they had occurred in the early-1990s.

Gretzky was already past his prime in the 1990s.

Lindros played only 4 seasons pre-dead puck era, including his rookie season, and his decline started before the end of the 1990s.

Pat Lafontaine was a great player but far from the caliber of the rest of this list.

Not denying Lemieux was much better than all those players, but those numbers are misleading.

The stories that his teammates talk about throughout the 90s about the state that Mario was in physically in that decade, I don't think there was anything "convenient" about his retirement.

The game on his stick looked like a video game... A guy that knew all the cheat codes. I don't think of him as a guy sustaining high totals by retiring as much as I think of how much more he could have done without the cancer, and chronically dehabiliating issues he had.

 

[Minar]

Nobody is better than Mario or ever will be most likely. Even Gretzky has said Mario is the GOAT

Gretzky has always said howe is the GOAT

 

[Minar]

I think if you put McDavid as he today on those Edmonton teams from the early 80's, he'd have multiple 200+ point seasons

And so would Draisaitl and Kucherov and Prastrinak and all the players that rival him in scoring apparently.. Not really like a Gretzky who was 75 pts ahead of the next guy.

 

[PurpleMouse]

Very tough to compare "hype" in different areas because of different forms of media. There was actually probably more hype around Crosby from an information point of view in terms of how much was out there, but not "per capita" based on the amount of hype that could be generated by the viral machine. That's a guess though, wasn't around for Lemieux coming in.

 

[alko]

Gretzky has always said howe is the GOAT

It would sound weird, if Gretzly would say, that Wayne Gretzky is the GOAT. Therefore he said something like this.

 

[Thenameless]

For a forward Lemieux would be considered gigantic in today's game. I believe the man is closer to 6'5" than the 6'4" he's listed at.

I agree. There's an old picture with Lemieux, Lindros (also listed at 6'4"), and Jagr (listed at 6"3") in it. Lemieux in shoes is as tall as Jagr with skates and only slightly shorter than Lindros who also has skates on. That would make Lemieux quite a bit taller than either of them.

 

[Video Nasty]

Even if you take Lemieux's 2000-03 numbers and use those to exptrapolate the years he missed in the 90s, he's still far, far ahead of everyone else.

This.

People who don’t do the math (or can’t) always use this argument against players and it’s a really bad one. If one doubled Lemieux’s 1990’s games played of 318 to 636 and also gave him just 1 PPG (which is absolutely ludicrous to consider lol) in those extra 318 games, he would still sit comfortably on top of the list in that decade with a 1.53 PPG.

I frequently argue against giving players extra credit if they didn’t play the games, but for anyone to pretend that someone like Lemieux wasn’t far ahead of every forward who ever played other than Gretzky is a joke. There’s nothing misleading about his numbers. He’s one of the few players ever where I don’t doubt that given an extra 500 games, his per game stats would barely decline.