Kunta Kinte
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- Nov 10, 2011
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How good were Anders Hedberg, Ulf and Kent Nilsson and the Jets?
- Thread starter Kunta Kinte
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Pominville Knows
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When it comes to that big line i think one can just have a look at their careers in the NHL after and in Hull's case before to get a feel of them.
Obviously the swedes came to have injury issues and they probably was a bit better during their WHA days as well, simply by looking at their ages.
BTW, Robert was the spawn from Kent's puck sack.
Obviously the swedes came to have injury issues and they probably was a bit better during their WHA days as well, simply by looking at their ages.
BTW, Robert was the spawn from Kent's puck sack.
sr edler
gold is not reality
- Mar 20, 2010
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Robert Nilsson is still active with the Zürcher Schlitschuhclub in Switzerland, so it's strictly verboten to talk about his career on the history board. 
Regarding Robert's playing style/character though, I don't think Kent needs to do a paternity test to determine anything.
Regarding Robert's playing style/character though, I don't think Kent needs to do a paternity test to determine anything.
BobbyAwe
Registered User
Interesting comparison between Hedberg and Hull because they were both (mainly?) on the same line, and were both mainly goal scorers. It looks like a mid-20's Hedberg was about as good as Hull was in his mid-30's. So obviously we'd have to conclude he wasn't as good as Hull if both were in their prime's but with a little imagination you might be able to estimate how they would compare at the same age?
Kunta Kinte
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tony d
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Pominville Knows
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Another thing regarding Hedberg and Nilsson... In the Canada Cup Hedberg had 11 points in 10 games and Nilsson 5 in 9, and both got picked for the NHL All-Stars in the Challenge Cup against the soviets in 1979. The latter in a way meant they breached Canadas best on best squad.
Kunta Kinte
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I just thought Hedberg is a name I never heard of really on these board of talked among ATG.
Was Ulf, Kent and Hedberg around the same level of skills? or one was clearly better.
Was Ulf, Kent and Hedberg around the same level of skills? or one was clearly better.
Pominville Knows
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Kent probably had the most talent, his name gets thrown around by some as to have had as much talent as anyone outside Gretzky, Howe, Orr and Lemieux. He was one soft cookie though, both in terms of play style and due diligence.
Did forget a bit of him in my last post though, his great showing in the 1984 Canada Cup when we got to the finals.
Ulf the other playmaker, maybe he could have gotten 100+ points a few times whilst Lafleur put up 120+.
Hedberg 50 goals? Sure, but Lanny McDonald hit 61 in a fluke year.
DowntownBooster
Registered User
To get an in-depth perspective on the skill and talent of both Anders Hedberg and Ulf Nilsson, I would recommend reading "The Hot Line" by Geoff Kirbyson. Both players along with Bobby Hull would change the way the game of hockey was played in North America. It's unfortunate that NHL fans never had the opportunity to see the trio play together while they were with the Winnipeg Jets in the WHA. The book also provides some commentary on Kent Nilsson who would later go on to star with the Calgary Flames of the NHL.
Kunta Kinte
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To get an in-depth perspective on the skill and talent of both Anders Hedberg and Ulf Nilsson, I would recommend reading "The Hot Line" by Geoff Kirbyson. Both players along with Bobby Hull would change the way the game of hockey was played in North America. It's unfortunate that NHL fans never had the opportunity to see the trio play together while they were with the Winnipeg Jets in the WHA. The book also provides some commentary on Kent Nilsson who would later go on to star with the Calgary Flames of the NHL.
Without reading the books, can you resume a little bit of "changing the game part" When you have time of course.
DowntownBooster
Registered User
The North American style of game for the most part was north-south in which the wingers would stay in their own lane (right wing on right side and left wing on left side) and the defense would stay back. There were some exceptions like Bobby Orr but in general the play was straight up and down the ice.
When Hedberg and Nilsson came to Winnipeg (along with some other Swedish players and a couple from Finland) to play on a line with Bobby Hull, the Jets employed a hybrid style of play combining the attributes of both European and North American hockey.
The Hot Line of Hull, Hedberg and Nilsson in particular would cross lanes (zig zag) during the play and drop the puck for their teammate. The players would always be in motion which caused confusion to the opposition who were used to just playing up and down the wing.
Hedberg had the speed, Nilsson was the playmaker and Hull had the powerful shot. The four years that they played together provided for some of the best hockey ever played in Winnipeg. The style of play by the Jets impressed Glen Sather so much that he patterned the Edmonton Oilers after it when they joined the NHL and went on to win several Stanley Cups during the 1980s.
Since that time the game of hockey in North America has taken on the European aspects and is much better for it. If possible though, I would suggest getting the book as it provides all the background and thorough understanding as to how much the game has changed because of them.
How good were the 1970s Winnipeg Jets?
The HOT line only really arrived in 1974-75. Before then, the teams offence (represented by AOQI) was just meh, as it was pretty much just Hull carrying the team when it came to scoring goals. After the line was formed, the teams offence had two decent years, then two great years from 77-78. In 1979 they cooled down offensively during the regular season, but caught fire in the playoffs again to win the last WHA championship.
Defensively they started out average, and got better as the decade went on. Joe Daley had a decent year with ~30 goals saved above expectations in 1976, but Id bet most of that improvement was due to the team becoming better defensively in front of him given how good the team was defensively by 1978, but none of the teams goaltending posted any really impressive numbers.
Of course, all of these stats are compiled relative to WHA averages, and nobody can really properly peg how good the WHA actually was. Most people would agree it must have been at least better than AHL level in the day, but probably only on par with the NHL average at best, and possibly below.
The only points of reference I can think of are the very small sample size of games played by the Soviet All Star Team:
Czechslovakia:
and Finland:
Obviously the sample sizes are very, very small, but its worth noting that the Soviets got beat pretty bad by the WHA in 1978, then came back and destroyed the WHA teams in 1979. The rest of the other visiting European teams were nowhere near the WHAs level (although whether those national team rosters were missing top players could be worth looking at)
Given enough time, I might be able to loosely benchmark the quality of the WHA relative to the NHL by comparing Soviet All-Stars/Finland/Czech games against the WHA along with the games those visiting clubs played against NHL teams, but its tough to say how truly representative that would be given the varying levels of intensity that teams might bring to each matchup. A mid season exhibition game for some NHL club against visiting team Finland wouldnt have mattered as much as the 79 Oilers playing a game that mattered in the schedule for points against the Finns, and none of the WHA games could have been taken as seriously as some of the most famous meetings between the Red Army and the Flyers & Habs.
If youre interested in the nuts & bolts behind how I generated that report, you can check out this thread over at the stats forum:
Scrap Project: Looking for Feedback
The HOT line only really arrived in 1974-75. Before then, the teams offence (represented by AOQI) was just meh, as it was pretty much just Hull carrying the team when it came to scoring goals. After the line was formed, the teams offence had two decent years, then two great years from 77-78. In 1979 they cooled down offensively during the regular season, but caught fire in the playoffs again to win the last WHA championship.
Defensively they started out average, and got better as the decade went on. Joe Daley had a decent year with ~30 goals saved above expectations in 1976, but Id bet most of that improvement was due to the team becoming better defensively in front of him given how good the team was defensively by 1978, but none of the teams goaltending posted any really impressive numbers.
Of course, all of these stats are compiled relative to WHA averages, and nobody can really properly peg how good the WHA actually was. Most people would agree it must have been at least better than AHL level in the day, but probably only on par with the NHL average at best, and possibly below.
The only points of reference I can think of are the very small sample size of games played by the Soviet All Star Team:
Czechslovakia:
and Finland:
Obviously the sample sizes are very, very small, but its worth noting that the Soviets got beat pretty bad by the WHA in 1978, then came back and destroyed the WHA teams in 1979. The rest of the other visiting European teams were nowhere near the WHAs level (although whether those national team rosters were missing top players could be worth looking at)
Given enough time, I might be able to loosely benchmark the quality of the WHA relative to the NHL by comparing Soviet All-Stars/Finland/Czech games against the WHA along with the games those visiting clubs played against NHL teams, but its tough to say how truly representative that would be given the varying levels of intensity that teams might bring to each matchup. A mid season exhibition game for some NHL club against visiting team Finland wouldnt have mattered as much as the 79 Oilers playing a game that mattered in the schedule for points against the Finns, and none of the WHA games could have been taken as seriously as some of the most famous meetings between the Red Army and the Flyers & Habs.
If youre interested in the nuts & bolts behind how I generated that report, you can check out this thread over at the stats forum:
Scrap Project: Looking for Feedback
Pominville Knows
Registered User
Great, but similar work have allready been done and coupled with just looking at rosters, 2xNilsson's and Hedberg's own time in the NHL there is little doubt that Ulf Nilsson was a 100 point player and Hedberg could potentially do 50 goals, at least if the whole HOT-line were to play in the NHL together.
Kent Nilsson we have an even greater grasp of.
DowntownBooster
Registered User
This is one of the main reasons why I found the book to be so informative as it relates to this particular issue. The author spoke to those who had a first hand knowledge of the WHA such as players who played in both the NHL and WHA as well as people from the NHL (such as Scotty Bowman of the Montreal Canadiens) that were very aware of the talent in the WHA from attending games in person. Those that played in both leagues also provide an accurate perspective of how good the Hot Line was and how they would have matched up against teams in the NHL. Many people that are too young to remember the WHA, or those that are old enough but only watched the NHL, may easily write off how good the league was simply because they assumed that although it was likely above the AHL that it was also sub-par to the NHL. Gordie Howe was of the belief that the Houston Aeros would have been in the top 6 of the NHL had they been able to move intact from the WHA. Having played in both leagues his opinion should carry some weight. As the Winnipeg Jets were a better team than the Aeros, it would likely be the case the Jets would also be one of the best teams in the NHL at that time had the team moved to the NHL intact as a unit as well.
DowntownBooster
Registered User
I'm glad they were able to provide some entertaining hockey for Rangers fans when they moved on from Winnipeg to New York. Unfortunately for Rangers fans, both players were pretty beaten up by the time they arrived there after four seasons in the WHA. Nilsson especially took a lot of abuse which is probably why he didn't last as long in the NHL as Hedberg did. Bobby Hull once noted after a game in San Diego against the Mariners that he couldn't believe how black and blue Nilsson was after the game. The stickwork used against both Hedberg and Nilsson during those years would have resulted with players receiving extremely lengthy suspensions or charged with assault if it occurred in today's NHL. I know many people that watched hockey in the 1970s recall how intimidating the Philadelphia Flyers were (and appropriately nicknamed the Broadstreet Bullies) but I think even they would be shocked at the violence that occurred in the WHA (particularly by the Birmingham Bulls) on a regular basis.
Questions about how good Hedberg and Nilsson actually were are often raised when comparing their NHL stats to those when they played in the WHA. They were both highly skilled players and Hedberg had that amazing speed as well. I think the best analogy to explain it would be that of an awesome recipe that couldn't be replicated because a key ingredient was missing. You might be able to make something that is a little similar and very good but not superb like it would be when the missing ingredient is included. In this particular case the difference was the absence of Bobby Hull when Hedberg and Nilsson were with the Rangers.
Another comparison using an analogy for music fans would be the music of Lennon and McCartney to that of the Beatles. On their own they were still great musicians but together they were on another level altogether and couldn't replicate the magic individually that they achieved as a group. In the same way, from the day that Hull, Hedberg and Nilsson stepped on the ice together for the first time there was a chemistry between the three that none of them could explain. Even though their line was constantly in motion when they were in play and crisscrossing lanes, they had an uncanny ability to know where each other would be. It truly was remarkable how they naturally gelled together having never played together before. Even Hedberg and Nilsson had not played together in Sweden but were on different teams before coming to Winnipeg. As I said before, it's unfortunate that NHL fans never had the chance to see the Hot Line perform together or see the Winnipeg Jets as a team when they were at their zenith.
Killion
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I'm glad they were able to provide some entertaining hockey for Rangers fans when they moved on from Winnipeg to New York. Unfortunately for Rangers fans, both players were pretty beaten up by the time they arrived there after four seasons in the WHA. Nilsson especially took a lot of abuse which is probably why he didn't last as long in the NHL as Hedberg did. Bobby Hull once noted after a game in San Diego against the Mariners that he couldn't believe how black and blue Nilsson was after the game. The stickwork used against both Hedberg and Nilsson during those years would have resulted with players receiving extremely lengthy suspensions or charged with assault if it occurred in today's NHL. I know many people that watched hockey in the 1970s recall how intimidating the Philadelphia Flyers were (and appropriately nicknamed the Broadstreet Bullies) but I think even they would be shocked at the violence that occurred in the WHA (particularly by the Birmingham Bulls) on a regular basis.
Questions about how good Hedberg and Nilsson actually were are often raised when comparing their NHL stats to those when they played in the WHA. They were both highly skilled players and Hedberg had that amazing speed as well. I think the best analogy to explain it would be that of an awesome recipe that couldn't be replicated because a key ingredient was missing. You might be able to make something that is a little similar and very good but not superb like it would be when the missing ingredient is included. In this particular case the difference was the absence of Bobby Hull when Hedberg and Nilsson were with the Rangers.
Another comparison using an analogy for music fans would be the music of Lennon and McCartney to that of the Beatles. On their own they were still great musicians but together they were on another level altogether and couldn't replicate the magic individually that they achieved as a group. In the same way, from the day that Hull, Hedberg and Nilsson stepped on the ice together for the first time there was a chemistry between the three that none of them could explain. Even though their line was constantly in motion when they were in play and crisscrossing lanes, they had an uncanny ability to know where each other would be. It truly was remarkable how they naturally gelled together having never played together before. Even Hedberg and Nilsson had not played together in Sweden but were on different teams before coming to Winnipeg. As I said before, it's unfortunate that NHL fans never had the chance to see the Hot Line perform together or see the Winnipeg Jets as a team when they were at their zenith.
Interesting post (and those you posted earlier). Clearly a memorable period in your life.
Passion shining through.
DowntownBooster
Registered User
Interesting post (and those you posted earlier). Clearly a memorable period in your life.
Passion shining through.
Thanks Killion. As we all have touchstone points in our hockey memories, that era had many for me. Glad I was around to witness them.
Interesting discussion. Remember in college speaking with Rich Preston after a Devils game. Obviously he was referring to the Jets teams after Hedberg and Nilsson had left for New York. But it was a shame that the NHL broke up the WHA teams rather than allowing them to stay together.
As I wrote in a thread some time ago, Hedberg was the first in prohockey to score 50 goals in less than 50 games.
If Hotline had played in NHL when they were younger and healthier they would of course have made even bigger impact. U Nilsson got alot of beating thru his career in NA.
Kent Nilsson still holds record in Calgary for most points in a season so he continued his development from WHA where he had back to back season in top of scoring race with 107 points. His shot was wicked and hands close to Kovalev.
If Hotline had played in NHL when they were younger and healthier they would of course have made even bigger impact. U Nilsson got alot of beating thru his career in NA.
Kent Nilsson still holds record in Calgary for most points in a season so he continued his development from WHA where he had back to back season in top of scoring race with 107 points. His shot was wicked and hands close to Kovalev.
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