How Good Was Hal Winkler?

[nabby12]

I've been doing a lot of research on old goalies this week and one thing I keep noticing is how Hal Winkler seems to be one of the most underrated elite netminders of the 1920's.

Hal's sort of the Herb Gardiner of goalies for his strong Western career and then strong NHL debut at an advanced age.

- He's the All-Time Wins Leader for the WCHL

- Winkler played phenomenal in the Boston Bruins run to the Stanley Cup final in 1926-27.

- Winkler recorded 15 shutouts in 44 games for the 1927-28 Boston Bruins. Despite the NHL's regular season almost doubling in length from 1927–28, Winkler's mark is a single-season team record that still stands. He led the league in shutouts that year at the age of 35.

I would certainly put Winkler above a lot of goalies from his era and maybe slot him just below Lorne Chabot.

Would be interested to hear anyone else's thoughts that have done research as well on this era.

Click to read more...

 

[VanIslander]

Well, HHOFer Alec Connell also had 15 shutouts that season and 15 two seasons earlier (a league leader in shutouts four times) winning two Stanley Cups with the dynasty Ottawa team. So, Winkler tied the previously set record for NHL shutouts, not set the record himself. And he wasn't alone in matching the 15 shutout record that season.

Winkler played most of two seasons in Boston before losing the starting job to NHL rookie and future HHOFer Tiny Thompson. The Bruins would win the 1929 Stanley Cup with Winkler having played entirely in the minors, yet the team appreciated him and decided to put his name on the cup as a 'sub-goaltender'. (Note: Decades later, that year's detachable ring of the Stanley Cup disappeared from the Hall of Fame and one hockey exec accused Montreal of stealing it to melt the silver into an award they gave retiring Habs great coach Toe Blake,... so it's likely that Winkler's name ain't actually on any part of the Stanley Cup anymore, though countless history books still document Winkler's name addition without mentioning the subsequent disappearance of the entire 1929 Bruins championship engraved ring of the cup).

 

[Sanf]

One of the best examples of Goalies who could probably been a pro before he entered pro leagues. I have seen several mentions of him being one of the top goalies from time before his pro career.

The Morning Leader - Dec 18, 1919

Hal Winkler,their goalkeeper, is one of the very best in the game today. He stood between nets when Ypres team went down to Toronto two years ago to meet the Kitchener team. His work at that time was nothing short of miraculous.

This is from 1921 from The Calgary Herald. Sadly I seem to have lost the date. Also part of the article was unreadable

In his fifteen years as a goaltender Winkler has always been one of the foremost in Canada. He is recognized all over the country as being among the top-notchers and in proof of his ability it might be mentioned that both the Pacific Coast League and the National Hockey League were after his services last winter while playing with the Crescents....

Winkler did not accept because he wished to stay with Saskatoon should this city remain in the amateur fold. Now, however, as Saskatoon has also professional aggregation Winkler is loath to relinquish his amateur standing, but should he...

He seemed to be slightly inconsistent goalie (Seen some critique of his practicing effort). Even though regarded one of the best in WCHL/WHL only have one year of All-Star recognition (1923). Others from his years in league would have been Reid 1922, McCusker 1924, Holmes 1925 and Hainsworth 1926.

His short NHL career was fine according to numbers, but basically lost his job twice in less than three seasons. First to Chabot in Rangers (went to their first season as tandem). Then like mentioned lost his job to Tiny Thompson in Bruins.

Had still fine season in AHA being "third team All-Star" behind Vern Turner and old rival Red McCusker. Don´t know about his season in Seattle Eskimos was forced to retire in 1930 with Boston Tigers.

Underated I guess because he was good goalie and a western hockey star, but overrated if we are starting to talk about Hall of Very Good.

 

[nabby12]

Well, HHOFer Alec Connell also had 15 shutouts that season and 15 two seasons earlier (a league leader in shutouts four times) winning two Stanley Cups with the dynasty Ottawa team. So, Winkler tied the previously set record for NHL shutouts, not set the record himself. And he wasn't alone in matching the 15 shutout record that season.

Winkler played most of two seasons in Boston before losing the starting job to NHL rookie and future HHOFer Tiny Thompson. The Bruins would win the 1929 Stanley Cup with Winkler having played entirely in the minors, yet the team appreciated him and decided to put his name on the cup as a 'sub-goaltender'. (Note: Decades later, that year's detachable ring of the Stanley Cup disappeared from the Hall of Fame and one hockey exec accused Montreal of stealing it to melt the silver into an award they gave retiring Habs great coach Toe Blake,... so it's likely that Winkler's name ain't actually on any part of the Stanley Cup anymore, though countless history books still document Winkler's name addition without mentioning the subsequent disappearance of the entire 1929 Bruins championship engraved ring of the cup).

To be fair, Alec Connell wasn't 35 years old that season.

Winkler also didn't necessarily lose the starting job to Thompson. Remember that Winkler was now 37/38 years old when this happened. Winkler voluntarily stepped away on his own because he knew that Thompson was much younger and gave the Bruins a chance going forward.

 

[nabby12]

One of the best examples of Goalies who could probably been a pro before he entered pro leagues. I have seen several mentions of him being one of the top goalies from time before his pro career.

The Morning Leader - Dec 18, 1919


This is from 1921 from The Calgary Herald. Sadly I seem to have lost the date. Also part of the article was unreadable


He seemed to be slightly inconsistent goalie (Seen some critique of his practicing effort). Even though regarded one of the best in WCHL/WHL only have one year of All-Star recognition (1923). Others from his years in league would have been Reid 1922, McCusker 1924, Holmes 1925 and Hainsworth 1926.

His short NHL career was fine according to numbers, but basically lost his job twice in less than three seasons. First to Chabot in Rangers (went to their first season as tandem). Then like mentioned lost his job to Tiny Thompson in Bruins.

Had still fine season in AHA being "third team All-Star" behind Vern Turner and old rival Red McCusker. Don´t know about his season in Seattle Eskimos was forced to retire in 1930 with Boston Tigers.

Underated I guess because he was good goalie and a western hockey star, but overrated if we are starting to talk about Hall of Very Good.

Yes, Winkler was tremendous from looking up old news archives when he played in Winnipeg for Army teams and others.

I would put him on the cusp of the Hall of Very Good but just on the outside looking in.

 

[Sanf]

To be fair, Alec Connell wasn't 35 years old that season.

Winkler also didn't necessarily lose the starting job to Thompson. Remember that Winkler was now 37/38 years old when this happened. Winkler voluntarily stepped away on his own because he knew that Thompson was much younger and gave the Bruins a chance going forward.

Can´t really say that I have seen mentioned that it would have been voluntarily. Winkler had bit problems at the ending for previous season and the stories told that they brought Tiny Thompson as understudy to Winkler if he starts to slip again. And in "training camp" Thompson convinced Ross. Though I found one of my bookmarks where it is mentioned that Winkler "unselfishly helped" Thompson to get in big league so maybe?

The Boston Globe November 26,1928

Tiny Thompson has been guarding the strings since the season opened for the Rossmen. Winkler was in uniform last Tuesday night at the Garden, but Thompson, a youngster picked up from the American Association, was given the preference.

It would seem that Winkler is about through, although no official declaration has been made as to his status with the Bruins other than that he is member of the team

The Calgary Daily Herald - Nov 29, 1928

Hal Winkler, in all probability, has played his last game for the Bruins. The veteran goalie was not taken on western trip and he requested that his locker room at the Bruins dressing room at the Boston Garden be left unlocked, so that he could carry away his equipment while the team was on the road.

Now but in here it need to be mentioned that Thompson wasn´t some rookie nobody. He had been targeted by pro clubs years before, but decided to stay as "amateur" in USAHA/AHA. He was star in league which was a pretty strong at the time. I guess another example how difficult it was to lure young talent to openly pro leagues at the time.

The Winnipeg Evening Tribune, 1924-08-29

With flattering offer, double the amount that has been offered him by several other clubs, "Tiny" Thompson, Calgary athlete and last year star goal-keeper of the Bellevue team is undecided whether to make the jump to professional hockey as a member of the Edmonton Eskimos or go to Minneapolis or Duluth.

"Kenny McKenzie made me a wonderful proposition here Wednesday and I don´t know whether to accept it or not" said Thompson tonight. "Its a pretty hard proposition to turn down"

 

[Sanf]

Yes, Winkler was tremendous from looking up old news archives when he played in Winnipeg for Army teams and others.

I would put him on the cusp of the Hall of Very Good but just on the outside looking in.

Personally I would put him in the group of notable pro goalies of the time. Him, Jake Forbes, Hec Fowler and maybe Red McCusker.

 

[nabby12]

Can´t really say that I have seen mentioned that it would have been voluntarily. Winkler had bit problems at the ending for previous season and the stories told that they brought Tiny Thompson as understudy to Winkler if he starts to slip again. And in "training camp" Thompson convinced Ross. Though I found one of my bookmarks where it is mentioned that Winkler "unselfishly helped" Thompson to get in big league so maybe?

The Boston Globe November 26,1928


The Calgary Daily Herald - Nov 29, 1928


Now but in here it need to be mentioned that Thompson wasn´t some rookie nobody. He had been targeted by pro clubs years before, but decided to stay as "amateur" in USAHA/AHA. He was star in league which was a pretty strong at the time. I guess another example how difficult it was to lure young talent to openly pro leagues at the time.

The Winnipeg Evening Tribune, 1924-08-29

Thank you for your research and insight, Sanf!

 

[Sanf]

Thank you for your research and insight, Sanf!

That era and especially goaltender of the time are great interest to me. Made quite a lot research few years ago. It´s nice that someone else shows interest to goalies of that time.

 

[VanIslander]

Personally I would put him in the group of notable pro goalies of the time. Him, Jake Forbes, Hec Fowler and maybe Red McCusker.

Yeah, yeah... who? McCusker? Now that one is new to me.

 

[nabby12]

That era and especially goaltender of the time are great interest to me. Made quite a lot research few years ago. It´s nice that someone else shows interest to goalies of that time.

Me too! I have a new book in the works that I'm doing on old goaltenders from the 1900's-1940's. So I'm trying to profile and do mini-biography's on all of the notable netminders of those days and even the obscure ones (the reason why I decided to reach out on here and ask people for their thoughts on Hal Winkler).

As I write this, I literally just got off the phone from talking with the niece of John Ross Roach!

 

[Sanf]

Yeah, yeah... who? McCusker? Now that one is new to me.

McCusker was one of the original Black Hawks. Though never played for them (might have dressed for backup). "His two, nieces, living in Toronto, relate that he used to chuckle when he told them that his carefree pub-crawling cost him his goal-tending job with the Chicago Black Hawks in the NHL"

"McCusker, a promising Regina intermediate who was considered secont to the great McCulloch in the province last season." (Winnipeg tribune 1915) One of the promising amateurs whos career was put on pause by WW1. Star of the 1922 Allan Cup finals. He was unanimous selection for 1924 WCHL All-Star and later got some first and second All-Stars in AHA (atleast second in 1929 and first 1932). Thats decent resume and makes him above avarage pro goalie of the time.

But the thing makes me put on that group is how well he was remembered. I have seen several list from later years that list McCusker one of the stars of western hockey. He didn´t instantly fade to obscurity.

There is possibility still that he was remembered well because he was such a "cult" goalie. The first instance is from 1925. It was actually a revenge from previous game when McCusker KO´d Cook. Second is from very late from his career. Both being Jim Coleman articles.

Ottawa Journal, March 17, 1951

Red McCusker. the Regina goalie, won undying fame by being kayoed three times in the regulation 60 minutes of play. The boys must have had a rough night on New Year's Eve because, after a rough opening. Dungs really popped in the second period. Newsv I.alonde skated in on McCusker s net and McCusker attempted to fell him with an Australian apple grapple. Newsy, who was man of few words, gave McCusker a butt-end and cut him for 12. McCusker was carried from the ice unconscious and after receiving hem-slitching, reported for more bloodshed. He didn't wait long Harry Cameron skated into the Regina net, knocked McCusker unconscious again and added another satisfactory cut. McCusker was carried to the dressing room healing balms and unguents were applied and he returned to the lists. Bill Cook apparently believed that "all bad things come in threes'. In any event, shortly after the resumption of play, he skated into McCusker and dropped him for the third time.

Edmonton Journal, September 26, 1979

When Red arrived in the Eskimo dressing-room, he was in terrible shape. Hank Dyck, a team-mate, reported later: "He couldn't have hit the floor with his hat" Red couldn't skate. So, two team-mates escorted him to the Edmonton net and he supported himself on the cross-bar. On the very first rush of the game, Ronnie Martin of Portland sped across the Edmonton blue-line; McCusker emitted a frightening roar and he brandished his goalstick over his head in both hands. Martin let the puck slide harmlessly into one corner of the rink and he retreated, very quickly, to centre-ice.....

Clarence Campbell, recently retired, from, the Presidency of the National Hockey League, was the referee, of that 'game in Edmonton on New Year's Day, 1936. Mr. Campbell, who leaves Montreal today, to participate in Edmonton's 75th anniversary celebrations, is prepared to attest publicly that Red's alcohol-impaired shutout was the most astonishing goal-tending performance he ever witnessed. Let it be understood that these words are written with affection for Albert McCusker, who was a great character.

 

[Sanf]

Me too! I have a new book in the works that I'm doing on old goaltenders from the 1900's-1940's. So I'm trying to profile and do mini-biography's on all of the notable netminders of those days and even the obscure ones (the reason why I decided to reach out on here and ask people for their thoughts on Hal Winkler).

As I write this, I literally just got off the phone from talking with the niece of John Ross Roach!

That´s great! Looking forward to that.

Roach is a goalie who I put in my own Hall Of Fame. If All-Star selection would have existed early in his career I believe he might have few more. I could argue about his rookie season.

Few clips (Could add more but working with google archives is almost impossible now. Even scrolling my own bookmarks is pain.)... First from the Stanley Cup Finals. Two from the early second season.

Vancouver Daily World, March 22, 1922

"You have doubtless heard the praises, east and west, of one John Ross Roach, goalkeeper extraordinary of St. Patricks. He does not quite tally with the praises showered on him- about 90 per cent better, that's all.

And this year, his first year in professional company, too. I have seen most of them in the past ten years - Paddy Moran, Vezina, Holmes, Lehman, Benedict, Lindsay, Forbes and I must admit handing the palm to Roach. I hope you have an opportunuty to see him here long. Lehman is a wonder, I´ll admit; Holmes is extra good. I have always admired Vezina who had been my model, although he is now getting along in years. I am not one who is changing by a good game or two on the part of a goaltender, but I think Roach takes the gold-headed cane.

The Calgary Daily Herald - Dec 8, 1922

John Ross Roach

Who is only playing his second season in professional hockeay and is recognizer as the peer of all custodians. He will be seen in action tonight.

Ottawa Citizen - Jan 18, 1923

At the opposite end of the rink, Roach, who has been probably the most consistent performer in the league since he broke in, had an off-night.

Second one would be 1923-1924 when he was third in Hart trophy voting and for example Basil O´Meara (future Elmer Ferguson award winner) selected him goalie of his All-Star team in early March.

 

[sr edler]

Me too! I have a new book in the works that I'm doing on old goaltenders from the 1900's-1940's. So I'm trying to profile and do mini-biography's on all of the notable netminders of those days and even the obscure ones (the reason why I decided to reach out on here and ask people for their thoughts on Hal Winkler).

As I write this, I literally just got off the phone from talking with the niece of John Ross Roach!

If you want to go for a really obscure goaltender go with Gouverneur Carnochan of the Harvard Crimson university team (intercollegiate) and the St. Nicholas Hockey Club (American Amateur League). He was apparently very serious about his goalkeeping work and wrote/drew diagrams of shot angles and stuff like that, already around 1913–1916.

He even got praised by Montreal Wanderers NHA forwards Odie Cleghorn and Harry Hyland, during a meeting between the Wanderers and the Nicks. The New York press tried to squeeze some praise out of them regarding their own star rover Hobey Baker, but Mr. Cleghorn and Mr. Hyland seemed more interested in praising "Gouvy's" net work. Just as Hobey, Carnochan was a St. Paul School graduate (Concord, NH).

Career brief though. Carnochan was a New York upper socialite guy and a descendant of Lewis Morris (who signed the U.S. Declaration of Independence), and he very much liked to throw his feet on the ballroom dance floor, and not only in front of the hockey net, impressing the ladies also on a non-icy surface, and subsequently disappeared from the hockey scene after the 15–16 season.

Died in a plane crash over Surinam in 1943 (aged 51), while in the line of military duty, on his way to Brazil.


Carnochan, at far left, with the Nicks.

 

[tony d]

From what I've read on him, he seemed like a solid goalie, here's some more info on him:

Legends of Hockey -- NHL Player Search -- Player -- Hal Winkler

 

[tarheelhockey]

Can´t really say that I have seen mentioned that it would have been voluntarily. Winkler had bit problems at the ending for previous season and the stories told that they brought Tiny Thompson as understudy to Winkler if he starts to slip again. And in "training camp" Thompson convinced Ross. Though I found one of my bookmarks where it is mentioned that Winkler "unselfishly helped" Thompson to get in big league so maybe?

The Boston Globe November 26,1928

The Calgary Daily Herald - Nov 29, 1928

Now but in here it need to be mentioned that Thompson wasn´t some rookie nobody. He had been targeted by pro clubs years before, but decided to stay as "amateur" in USAHA/AHA. He was star in league which was a pretty strong at the time. I guess another example how difficult it was to lure young talent to openly pro leagues at the time.

The Winnipeg Evening Tribune, 1924-08-29

Fairly certain that Winkler did not give up his crease voluntarily. Initial reports that he had "quit" the organization altogether after being cut were quashed by Art Ross, who made it clear that Winkler would be loaned to AHA Minneapolis which was closely aligned with Boston at the time. Therefore the transition from Winkler to Thompson out of Bruins training camp would best be described as a cut followed by a minor league assignment.

Supposedly (grain of salt) at about this same time, the Bruins made a competitive offer to the Americans for Roy Worters during his holdout. Americans didn't have a goalie during this time, even playing Normie Himes in net for a game. If it's true that Ross was in on a potential trade for Worters (grain of salt) that would suggest that he was shopping Winkler as the replacement for the Americans.

In any case, the fact that he went on to spend the rest of his career with three different minor league teams suggests that he was simply not able to make the cut as an NHL'er after 1928. His shutout record that season is extremely impressive, but it's probably more of an indicator of how good the Bruins were as a whole (3 finals in 4 years), plus the fact that leaguewide scoring in the two seasons in question was at the absolute lowest level in the history of the league.

As an example of how deceptive that record can be, George Hainsworth had a 1.05 GAA that year compared to Winkler's 1.51, across the same number of games. Yet despite allowing nearly 50% more goals, Winkler recorded 2 more shutouts than Hainsworth. In fact, Winkler also had a substantially higher GAA than Connell (1.24) who tied the shutout mark. The reason being that Winkler tended to get shelled (in 1928 terms) more often. Here's a breakdown of how the full-season goalies that season fared in terms of volume allowed:

Winkler
7 against - 1 (2%)
6 against - 1 (2%)
5 against - 1 (2%)
4 against - 2 (5%)
3 against - 7 (16%)
2 against - 6 (14%)
1 against - 11 (25%)
shutouts - 15 (34%)

Connell
7 against - 0
6 against - 1 (2%)
5 against - 0
4 against - 2 (5%)
3 against - 4 (9%)
2 against - 9 (20%)
1 against - 13 (30%)
shutouts - 15 (34%)

Hainsworth
7 against - 0
6 against - 0
5 against - 1 (2%)
4 against - 1 (2%)
3 against - 2 (5%)
2 against - 6 (14%)
1 against - 21 (48%)
shutouts - 13 (30%)

Worters
7 against - 0
6 against - 1 (2%)
5 against - 1 (2%)
4 against - 3 (7%)
3 against - 5 (11%)
2 against - 15 (34%)
1 against - 8 (18%)
shutouts - 11 (25%)

Benedict
7 against - 0
6 against - 0
5 against - 0
4 against - 4 (9%)
3 against - 9 (20%)
2 against - 9 (20%)
1 against - 16 (36%)
shutouts - 6 (14%)

Holmes
7 against - 0
6 against - 2 (5%)
5 against - 1 (2%)
4 against - 2 (5%)
3 against - 6 (14%)
2 against - 14 (32%)
1 against - 8 (18%)
shutouts - 11 (25%)

Chabot
7 against - 0
6 against - 1 (2%)
5 against - 0
4 against - 7 (16%)
3 against - 5 (9%)
2 against - 10 (23%)
1 against - 10 (23%)
shutouts - 11 (25%)


These numbers reveal that Winkler only comes out on top if we rank goalies specifically by shutouts. If instead we rank them by games with 0-or-1 goals against, we get:

Hainsworth: 34 (78%)
Connell: 28 (64%)
Winkler: 26 (59%)
Benedict: 22 (50%)
Chabot: 21 (48%)
Holmes: 19 (43%)
Worters: 19 (43%)

And if we count the games with 4-or-MORE goals against, we get:
Hainsworth: 2 (4%)
Connell: 3 (7%)
Benedict: 4 (9%)
Winkler: 5 (11%)
Worters: 5 (11%)
Holmes: 5 (12%)
Chabot: 7 (18%)

Of course, those types of games are virtually guaranteed Ws and Ls. But in an environment where the team scoring average is 1.90 goals per game, the critical question in winning hockey games is what proportion of games the team allows 2-or-fewer versus 3-or-more. These are the splits for this group:

Hainsworth - 40/4
Connell - 37/7
Worters - 34/10
Holmes - 33/11
Winkler - 32/12
Benedict - 31/13
Chabot - 31/13

What's particularly impressive about that last stat is that Winkler posted that ratio while playing for a Bruins team that won its division. That really uncovers how far the Bruins exceeded expectations relative to their rate of goals allowed -- even in spite of Winkler picking up the shutout record in the process!

Of course this is reading a lot into GA numbers, which is always a dubious approach. But when you put all of the information together -- the unimpressive GA spreads and ratios, the fact that the Bruins hastily identified a replacement and promoted him the following season, the fact that Winkler bounced around the minors after that -- the strong impression is that Winkler was not up to the standard of the team that surrounded him. Without getting in a time machine and actually watching him play hockey, the best I can do is draw a reasonable inference that Winkler was a "merely good" goalie who was in (literally) the best possible place at the best possible time to post an inflated shutout number.

 

[nabby12]

Fairly certain that Winkler did not give up his crease voluntarily. Initial reports that he had "quit" the organization altogether after being cut were quashed by Art Ross, who made it clear that Winkler would be loaned to AHA Minneapolis which was closely aligned with Boston at the time. Therefore the transition from Winkler to Thompson out of Bruins training camp would best be described as a cut followed by a minor league assignment.

Supposedly (grain of salt) at about this same time, the Bruins made a competitive offer to the Americans for Roy Worters during his holdout. Americans didn't have a goalie during this time, even playing Normie Himes in net for a game. If it's true that Ross was in on a potential trade for Worters (grain of salt) that would suggest that he was shopping Winkler as the replacement for the Americans.

In any case, the fact that he went on to spend the rest of his career with three different minor league teams suggests that he was simply not able to make the cut as an NHL'er after 1928. His shutout record that season is extremely impressive, but it's probably more of an indicator of how good the Bruins were as a whole (3 finals in 4 years), plus the fact that leaguewide scoring in the two seasons in question was at the absolute lowest level in the history of the league.

As an example of how deceptive that record can be, George Hainsworth had a 1.05 GAA that year compared to Winkler's 1.51, across the same number of games. Yet despite allowing nearly 50% more goals, Winkler recorded 2 more shutouts than Hainsworth. In fact, Winkler also had a substantially higher GAA than Connell (1.24) who tied the shutout mark. The reason being that Winkler tended to get shelled (in 1928 terms) more often. Here's a breakdown of how the full-season goalies that season fared in terms of volume allowed:

Winkler
7 against - 1 (2%)
6 against - 1 (2%)
5 against - 1 (2%)
4 against - 2 (5%)
3 against - 7 (16%)
2 against - 6 (14%)
1 against - 11 (25%)
shutouts - 15 (34%)

Connell
7 against - 0
6 against - 1 (2%)
5 against - 0
4 against - 2 (5%)
3 against - 4 (9%)
2 against - 9 (20%)
1 against - 13 (30%)
shutouts - 15 (34%)

Hainsworth
7 against - 0
6 against - 0
5 against - 1 (2%)
4 against - 1 (2%)
3 against - 2 (5%)
2 against - 6 (14%)
1 against - 21 (48%)
shutouts - 13 (30%)

Worters
7 against - 0
6 against - 1 (2%)
5 against - 1 (2%)
4 against - 3 (7%)
3 against - 5 (11%)
2 against - 15 (34%)
1 against - 8 (18%)
shutouts - 11 (25%)

Benedict
7 against - 0
6 against - 0
5 against - 0
4 against - 4 (9%)
3 against - 9 (20%)
2 against - 9 (20%)
1 against - 16 (36%)
shutouts - 6 (14%)

Holmes
7 against - 0
6 against - 2 (5%)
5 against - 1 (2%)
4 against - 2 (5%)
3 against - 6 (14%)
2 against - 14 (32%)
1 against - 8 (18%)
shutouts - 11 (25%)

Chabot
7 against - 0
6 against - 1 (2%)
5 against - 0
4 against - 7 (16%)
3 against - 5 (9%)
2 against - 10 (23%)
1 against - 10 (23%)
shutouts - 11 (25%)


These numbers reveal that Winkler only comes out on top if we rank goalies specifically by shutouts. If instead we rank them by games with 0-or-1 goals against, we get:

Hainsworth: 34 (78%)
Connell: 28 (64%)
Winkler: 26 (59%)
Benedict: 22 (50%)
Chabot: 21 (48%)
Holmes: 19 (43%)
Worters: 19 (43%)

And if we count the games with 4-or-MORE goals against, we get:
Hainsworth: 2 (4%)
Connell: 3 (7%)
Benedict: 4 (9%)
Winkler: 5 (11%)
Worters: 5 (11%)
Holmes: 5 (12%)
Chabot: 7 (18%)

Of course, those types of games are virtually guaranteed Ws and Ls. But in an environment where the team scoring average is 1.90 goals per game, the critical question in winning hockey games is what proportion of games the team allows 2-or-fewer versus 3-or-more. These are the splits for this group:

Hainsworth - 40/4
Connell - 37/7
Worters - 34/10
Holmes - 33/11
Winkler - 32/12
Benedict - 31/13
Chabot - 31/13

What's particularly impressive about that last stat is that Winkler posted that ratio while playing for a Bruins team that won its division. That really uncovers how far the Bruins exceeded expectations relative to their rate of goals allowed -- even in spite of Winkler picking up the shutout record in the process!

Of course this is reading a lot into GA numbers, which is always a dubious approach. But when you put all of the information together -- the unimpressive GA spreads and ratios, the fact that the Bruins hastily identified a replacement and promoted him the following season, the fact that Winkler bounced around the minors after that -- the strong impression is that Winkler was not up to the standard of the team that surrounded him. Without getting in a time machine and actually watching him play hockey, the best I can do is draw a reasonable inference that Winkler was a "merely good" goalie who was in (literally) the best possible place at the best possible time to post an inflated shutout number.

Thank you for posting this! Solid research - I appreciate it.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Winkler voluntarily stepped away on his own because he knew that Thompson was much younger and gave the Bruins a chance going forward.

Can´t really say that I have seen mentioned that it would have been voluntarily.

Fairly certain that Winkler did not give up his crease voluntarily.

Just wanted to revisit this as I stumbled across a scrap of information in the 12/23/28 edition of the Minneapolis Sunday Tribune which helps shed some light on the situation.

Bearing in mind that the Tribune was the local paper for the Minneapolis Millers, and therefore inclined to show their newly acquired stud goalie in the best light possible:

"His fine playing made Winkler exceedingly popular with Boston fans and it was no easy task for Tiny Thompson, idol of Minneapolis ice followers who was sold to the Bruins last spring, to break into the Boston lineup. But Art Ross, manager of the eastern team, wanted to experiment with younger blood. However, he refused to make any deals for Winkler, desiring to keep him on the roster of his team.

When [Millers manager Lloyd] Turner put in his request for Winkler, the matter was put up to the goalie. Winkler voluntarily agreed to finish the season with the man he played for at Calgary a few seasons before and reported a few days later. At the close of the current campaign, Winkler will be recalled by Boston as he is still the property of that club."

I think that gives us a reasonably credible look into how it all shook out. Basically, Winkler lost his crease to Thompson but didn't necessarily earn a demotion all the way to the minors. Given the choice to remain in Boston as a substitute, or go down to Minnesota and play for a coach he respected, he chose the latter.

The fact that this was put in his hands at all is indicative that Winkler had earned Ross' respect, and that Ross was trying to keep him reasonably happy under the circumstances. Playing assignments were not generally regarded as "optional", particularly for goalies at that time.

 

[Killion]

Based on all Ive seen & read to date?.... Beginning to think Art Ross was actually a complete & utter Moron.

 

[Sanf]

Based on all Ive seen & read to date?.... Beginning to think Art Ross was actually a complete & utter Moron.

I think with goalies Ross made few brilliant moves. Winkler may not have been that great at that point anymore, but still somewhat serviceable veteran. Changing him to Thompson was a good read. And ten years later he did that again with Thompson to Brimsek.

For example Lester Patrick wasn´t nearly as good as his choice of goalies at point of his career. In mid 30´s there were talks on papers of New York being a goalie graveyard (first time I have seen that term used). Though that included Americans aswell at the time.

 

[Sanf]

Just wanted to revisit this as I stumbled across a scrap of information in the 12/23/28 edition of the Minneapolis Sunday Tribune which helps shed some light on the situation....

Out of curiosity did you ever go further on your year-by-year deep research on early NHL (and other pro leagues)? Easily some of my favourite threads in here. Though I know from experience how time consuming... and too addicting it can be.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Out of curiosity did you ever go further on your year-by-year deep research on early NHL (and other pro leagues)? Easily some of my favourite threads in here. Though I know from experience how time consuming... and too addicting it can be.

Yeah, I pushed forward a couple of years to 1922. At some point I need to upload that info onto here for general usage and crowd-sourced additions.

It does indeed get to be extremely time consuming. And I’m not sure any more that HF is the best repository for information that we don’t want to get lost in a mass deletion. Not sure what the alternative is, though. It would be nice if there were some site that just aggregated information... kind of like Wiki, but more appropriate for detailed archival info.