How good is the ushl?
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Barclay Donaldson
Registered User
With the measuring stick being level of play and NHL draft picks, the U Show is on par with or very marginally behind the OHL and WHL. They do better each year in the draft and the quality of players they attract now are choosing them and the NCAA route over the major juniors circuit they would've certainly gone to 15-20 years ago. The Q has fallen far behind the others in the CHL for a multitude of reasons we won't get into. The BCHL is still very good but is more level with the NAHL.
Ushl is definitely closer to CHL quality then CJHL or NAHL. However I think the level of play is slightly higher in CHL due to the fact most drafted players go back to the CHL after their draft year and 19yr old season while the majority of USHL players are off to NCAA
Whalers Fan
Go Habs!
The major difference between the USHL and CHL is that you do not see elite players coming out of the USHL. By "elite", I mean players drafted in the top half of the first round of the NHL Draft. The USHL has not produced any players on the level of Connor McDavid, Sidney Crosby, John Tavares, Steven Stamkos, Taylor Hall, Tyler Seguin. Aaron Ekblad, etc. (just naming some from the past few years).
Note that the US NTDP is not part of the USHL, although they do play a significant USHL schedule. The NTDP is not a USHL franchise, and does not participate in the USHL draft -- the program recruits its talent separately. So "elite" prospects from the NTDP such as Auston Matthews, Dylan Larkin, Clayton Keller, Quinn Hughes and Jack Hughes shouldn't count as USHL players.
Note that the US NTDP is not part of the USHL, although they do play a significant USHL schedule. The NTDP is not a USHL franchise, and does not participate in the USHL draft -- the program recruits its talent separately. So "elite" prospects from the NTDP such as Auston Matthews, Dylan Larkin, Clayton Keller, Quinn Hughes and Jack Hughes shouldn't count as USHL players.
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StrBender
Registered User
Whalers Fan,
I was on a coaching staff here in the EJHL back in the late 90's early 2000's. We came to Plymouth, MI for the Compuware Tournament. Nice facility.
swoopster
Politally incorrect
Whalers Fan,
You are quite right. The NTDP sits as an outlier, a cow far from the rest of the herd. It is indeed a strange relationship, for without the USHL that cow would starve. There are not enough international and collegiate games that could keep the teams competetive througout the course of a hockey season.
You are quite right. The NTDP sits as an outlier, a cow far from the rest of the herd. It is indeed a strange relationship, for without the USHL that cow would starve. There are not enough international and collegiate games that could keep the teams competetive througout the course of a hockey season.
Whalers Fan
Go Habs!
I am glad you enjoyed your visit here. It's always been a nice, cozy arena. USA Hockey has invested a lot of money into the complex since buying the facility four years ago -- a large, multi-million dollar addition on the back of the building housing modern training facilities, expanded and renovated locker rooms, new video boards and sound system, $1 million for new boards and glass, a new roof, etc. The building was beginning to show its age, so it's nice to have an owner that is investing in the facility and committed to be here for many years.
Whalers Fan
Go Habs!
The two NTDP teams used to compete in the NAHL instead of the USHL, but the program had really outgrown that league. The USHL is a much better fit to fill out the U18 team's schedule along with its NCAA and international games. The U17 squad plays the vast majority of its games against USHL opponents -- along with a few international games (no NCAA opponents for the U17's).
Yeah i was asking more specifically about the 16 ushl junior teams . If they played head to head games against canadian junior teams, do you view them on the same level as qmjhl teams or bchl teams. Unfortunately ushl is the only league i dont get to watch as they don't air those games on tv in Canada. I know in the hockey circles, QMJHL is viewed as the weak link of the CHL and BCHL is viewed as the powerhouse of CJHL. I am assuming ushl is either on par with the Q or slightly higher than BCHL. I would like to see head to head games to get the accurate picture of how good they really are.
crimsonace
Registered User
I've heard it said the USHL is on par with the QMJHL. I don't have enough of a trained eye to really know the difference. However, comparing stats with the BCHL (which is the top CJHL league), it appears players who play in both leagues (USHL->BCHL or vice versa) have higher offensive numbers in the BCHL, which would indicate the defense/goaltending isn't as strong (which would indicate the USHL is at least a slightly better league).
JMCx4
Censorship is the Sincerest Form of Flattery
I come down on the side of @Barclay Donaldson in this debate, particularly with regard to his suggested measure of quality ...
"With the measuring stick being level of play and NHL draft picks, the U Show is on par with or very marginally behind the OHL and WHL."
"With the measuring stick being level of play and NHL draft picks, the U Show is on par with or very marginally behind the OHL and WHL."
The USHL deserves more credit than you are giving it...How good would any CHL team be if they were losing EVERY good 18 year old to university hockey?
It is something completely different from the CHL, and it should be treated that way.
I've seen some very good players come through in my short time watching it.As far as playing head to head... it might be interesting, if it were the right teams, as I'm sure the Flint Firebirds would be some easy pickings... for some of the teams at least.... I would like to see the development team be able to play an OHL team, but they would ruin their college eligibility. Interesting post, thanks
It is something completely different from the CHL, and it should be treated that way.
I've seen some very good players come through in my short time watching it.As far as playing head to head... it might be interesting, if it were the right teams, as I'm sure the Flint Firebirds would be some easy pickings... for some of the teams at least.... I would like to see the development team be able to play an OHL team, but they would ruin their college eligibility. Interesting post, thanks
Barclay Donaldson
Registered User
The USHL does deserve more credit, but to be fair to the CHL teams they do lose their best 18 years old to the NHL.
There's haves and have-nots in every league. Each team has a foil in another league. Flint is pretty bad, but in the last 10 years Des Moines Buccaneers has only made ploffs once. If you put them up against your average OHL team the result wouldn't be flattering for USHL supporters. It's tough to line up the competition because, for the most part, the performance of junior teams is cyclical. London is an exception and there might be a few others. The OHL especially tanks hard and trades high OHL draft picks as far as 7-8 years into the future. The USHL isn't nearly that cyclical and
they aren't planning potential rosters 10 years in advance.
Playing, which is probably the best way to compare the leagues rather than choosing the best alternatives of "level of play" and "draft picks/NHL alumni," will never happen. The NCAA is steadfast in it's opinion of the CHL being professional athletes.
PCSPounder
Stadium Groupie
So I went to an SPHL game in Peoria Sunday.
It's better than I thought. It's probably better hockey than your general 3rd or 4th lines- and even half the second lines- in the WHL. I don't think the first lines I saw hold a candle to Joachim Blichfeld and Cody Glass in Portland, but they're already drafted and getting hype from their NHL teams. My point there- don't see too many W players in the SPHL.
It's been mentioned that going up against Blichfeld/Glass (and I'd mention Ryan Hughes except he got traded to Saskatoon today) is where USHL falls short. I would say Blichfeld/Glass is the key component to where CHL is more quality. The younger kids in the 3rd & 4th lines get to practice against Blichfeld and Glass on something of a regular basis. That's where the whole CHL scheme matters most. Chances are that this is how the next Blichfeld and Glass are molded.
I'm sure there's a player or two of that quality currently in USHL; people take their own paths, and some don't know any better
. Yeah, many do want a college education within the process. I could argue that USHL might be a better opportunity for actual development than for most of the college-bound players... if that's how the USHL operated. The U will get kids who simply want to be closer to home or find their own path or don't want to report to Swift Current or even smaller Quebec cities... it's been a topic of discussion that cycles among rural CHL teams have had less peaks of late. So my gaudy comparison of the WHL should be tempered. I just don't think it's quite as close as advertised. But it could be closer than it is if the will is there to do it.
It's better than I thought. It's probably better hockey than your general 3rd or 4th lines- and even half the second lines- in the WHL. I don't think the first lines I saw hold a candle to Joachim Blichfeld and Cody Glass in Portland, but they're already drafted and getting hype from their NHL teams. My point there- don't see too many W players in the SPHL.
It's been mentioned that going up against Blichfeld/Glass (and I'd mention Ryan Hughes except he got traded to Saskatoon today) is where USHL falls short. I would say Blichfeld/Glass is the key component to where CHL is more quality. The younger kids in the 3rd & 4th lines get to practice against Blichfeld and Glass on something of a regular basis. That's where the whole CHL scheme matters most. Chances are that this is how the next Blichfeld and Glass are molded.
I'm sure there's a player or two of that quality currently in USHL; people take their own paths, and some don't know any better
. Yeah, many do want a college education within the process. I could argue that USHL might be a better opportunity for actual development than for most of the college-bound players... if that's how the USHL operated. The U will get kids who simply want to be closer to home or find their own path or don't want to report to Swift Current or even smaller Quebec cities... it's been a topic of discussion that cycles among rural CHL teams have had less peaks of late. So my gaudy comparison of the WHL should be tempered. I just don't think it's quite as close as advertised. But it could be closer than it is if the will is there to do it.
JMCx4
Censorship is the Sincerest Form of Flattery
You saw two very competitive teams - and especially two very well coached teams - in the Peoria Rivermen & the Huntsville Havoc. Those two, plus Macon & Birmingham, are the cream of the SPHL crop right now, IMO. But the SPHL historically draws its talent from Canadian Junior B & NCAA Div III colleges & the NA3HL. If a CHL player (any of the three leagues) or a USHL or even NAHL player showed up on one of their rosters, he'd either be damaged goods or he took a plane to the wrong destination on a one-way fare.
Cyclones Rock
Registered User
- Jun 12, 2008
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NHL Drafts
A list of USHL players taken in NHL drafts.
**some of the players played in other leagues prior to the draft, but did play for a USHL team in their amateur career.
A list of USHL players taken in NHL drafts.
**some of the players played in other leagues prior to the draft, but did play for a USHL team in their amateur career.
Whalers Fan
Go Habs!
That list overstates the number of USHL players. Any player listed as from "Team USA" did not play on a USHL team. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, USA Hockey's National Team Development Program (known as "Team USA" in the USHL standings ) is NOT a USHL franchise. The two NTDP teams just happen to play a significant portion of their schedules against USHL opponents. The U17 team plays more USHL games (plus some international games), while the U18 squad is more evenly divided between USHL and NCAA opponents, along with some international games. The combined records of the two NTDP teams against USHL opponents is what gets listed as "Team USA" in the USHL standings. The NTDP does not participate in the USHL drafting of players (the program is "by invitation"), does not follow the same roster rules, is not part of the league's decision-making process, and isn't hugely concerned with where they finish in the USHL standings or how they do in the USHL playoffs, which they rarely even qualify for. The major immediate goal for the program is winning the gold medal in the IIHF U18 World Championship each spring, which the U18 squad competes in. If "Team USA" qualifies for the USHL playoffs, the program sends the younger U17 team, and usually minus it's best players who would have been moved up to the U18 team for the U18 Worlds. For example, last season "Team USA" actually finished first in the USHL's Eastern Conference due to having probably the best U17 team in the program's history. However, by the time the USHL playoffs began Jack Hughes, Cole Caufield, Alex Turcotte, Cam York and goalie Spencer Knight had all been moved up to the U18 squad and did not compete in the USHL playoffs.
Also, Svechnikov (the only high first round pick) was drafted out of the OHL. He only played one season in the USHL before moving on to the better OHL. Jay O'Brien is the only first round pick from that list the USHL can legitimately claim as its own.
Actually, the Svechnikov situation is another reason why I think the USHL is significantly lower than the OHL. Players will jump from the USHL to the OHL to further their development in the more difficult league. Another example from that list is Detroit's 3rd round pick, Alec Regula, who now plays for the London Knights.
Cyclones Rock
Registered User
- Jun 12, 2008
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I would think that the OHL is higher on the food chain. I just posted a link.
I've only been to 3 OHL games in my life. One of them was in Plymouth MI (I noticed your location). How long has it been since Plymouth has had an OHL team? I enjoyed the game at Compuware Arena when I was there. I'm cold just thinking about it. LOL. I think it was sub zero temperatures on the night I was there.
Whalers Fan
Go Habs!
The Whalers were sold in January 2015, finished the 2014-15 season in Plymouth, then relocated to Flint Michigan and became the Firebirds at the beginning of the 2015-16 season. USA Hockey purchased Compuware Arena in late 2014 and moved the National Team Development program from Ann Arbor to Plymouth for the start of the 2015-16 season. The arena was renamed USA Hockey Arena for the start of that season.
My wife and I were long time Whalers season ticket holders, and became USA Hockey NTDP season ticket holders upon their inaugural season in Plymouth. So I have seen a lot of OHL hockey, and am now on my fourth season watching the NTDP play against NCAA, USHL and international opponents.
FYI, the Plymouth Whalers final home game in March, 2015 was also Connor McDavid's last OHL regular season game (Erie beat Plymouth 5-1). We had a crowd of over 4,100 in the 3,500 seat arena. We regulars shook our collective heads and wondered where all those people had been hiding the past few years.
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I didn’t realize that 24 USHL players were drafted in 2018 compared to only 9 out of NCAA. I DID NOT count the USA Dev. Team. Does this mean that USHL is as good as the NCAA, even though the developmental path is USHL then NCAA?
Whalers Fan
Go Habs!
No, it does not. The vast majority of those USA Hockey NTDP players you rightly didn't count went on to play in the NCAA, as did some of the USHL players. Basically, the USHL is a place for players who (1) do not get selected for the NTDP (or are not eligible because they are not American), (2) do not want to give up their NCAA eligibility by signing with the CHL, or (3) are not yet good enough (or old enough) to play in the NCAA.
What you have noted has more to do with age and where birthdates fall. Any player who turns 18 years old on or before September 15th is eligible for the NHL Draft that year. So, the majority of the NTDP U18 players are drafted before they enter the NCAA. The same idea holds true for USHL players. If a player has not already been drafted by the time he enters the NCAA, it's usually for one of two reasons -- either he was not old enough to be eligible, or he wasn't good enough. If it's the latter, the chances he will be drafted the next year are very slim.
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Thanks for the reply! So, do most NHL draftees out of the USHL go onto play NCAA hockey instead of the AHL?
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Whalers Fan
Go Habs!
Without looking up the stats I am just assuming, but that would be my guess. A few, such as Detroit Red Wings 2018 3rd round pick Alec Regula, opt to head to the CHL (he's playing for the London Knights of the OHL). That happens occasionally with NTDP players, as well -- Bode Wilde decided to forgo his NCAA scholarship this year and is playing for Saginaw of the OHL. In past years, J.T. Miller and Sonny Milano did the same thing after graduating from the NTDP and played for our former local OHL team, the Plymouth Whalers, instead of honoring their NCAA letters of intent.
I can get to one junior hockey game this weekend. One is OHL (Erie), the other is USHL (Youngstown) but the latter is an opportunity to see the NTDP that I may not get if I go to a later USHL game (the NTDP comes back in one more time, but I won't know if I can make that game until the last second due to the Stanley Cup Playoffs).
Which game should I go to?
Which game should I go to?
I know my question gets into the CHL, but it was going to be slightly off-topic on any board here and this seemed to be the best thread to ask it in.
Barclay Donaldson
Registered User
Erie is third to last in the league, but they do have two of the top teams in the league coming to visit in London and Niagara. Lived in Pittsburgh for a while, heard that Erie has a nice arena that recently got renovations done and even during down their years it's pretty good fun and a loud crowd. But if the NTDP is coming to town that might be something more worth seeing.
You're spoiled for choice, can't go wrong with either.
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