How good is Nicklas Lidstrom in an all-time D list?

[SChan*]

Top5? Top10? Top25? Top50?

3 times Stanley Cup Winner
3 times Norris Trophy Winner
1 Conn Smythe Winner (first euro ever)
1 Olympic Gold
1 World Championchip title

779 points in 1073 games (regular season)
116 points in 168 games (playoffs)

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[Heaton]

Top 10, but pretty close to top 5. The Conn Smythe boosts him a lot IMO.

 

[SChan*]

Top 10, but pretty close to top 5. The Conn Smythe boosts him a lot IMO.

I wonder if he can reach 1000 points. How many other defensemen has done that?

 

[Wisent]

Only seven if I count correctly.

Bourque 1579
Coffey 1531
McInnis 1274
Housley 1232
Murphy 1216
Potvin 1052
Leetch 1020

If he plays three or four seasons like this he can make it.

 

[canucksfan]

Lidstrom is the best defenceman of his era. That being said I would rank him just outside the top ten of all time. Orr, Harvey, Shore, Potvin, Kelly, Robinson, Bourque, Coffey, Chelios, and Park are better than him. Moreover, if you want to include international play, Fetisov would be ahead of him as well.

 

[V-2 Schneider]

Top 10 right now.

 

[SChan*]

Well I guess lock for hall of fame atleast.

 

[canucksfan]

Well I guess lock for hall of fame atleast.

He could retire at the end of this season and he would easily be a lock for the HHOF.

 

[God Bless Canada]

He could retire at the end of this season and he would easily be a lock for the HHOF.

He could have retired at the end of the 2002 season and he'd have been a lock.

Problem that Lidstrom's going to run into is the lack of competition he had for the Norris Trophy. The runner-up for the Norris in each of his three seasons were guys who were 40-ish. (Bouque [and Stevens] in 2001, Chelios in 2002 and MacInnis in 2003). While guys like Niedermayer, Pronger and Blake have gone on to have fine careers, the quantity and quality of elite defencemen isn't what we saw 10 years ago, and especially 20 years ago.

I'd say Lidstrom ranks somewhere around top 15 or 20 of all-time. Orr, Shore, Bourque and Harvey comprise the top 4 on most lists. I'd say 5-10 are Potvin, Robinson, Kelly, Fetisov, Chelios and Coffey. Park would be ahead of Lidstrom, too, and I don't see Lidstrom surpassing Park. Lidstrom would be in a class with guys like Clapper, Horton and Pilote, and that's pretty darn good. Best defenceman drafted since Leetch was picked in 1986.

 

[td_ice]

Top 10 right now.

I agree.

 

[terreur]

in the top 10... and a sure lock in the hall of fame

 

[Ogopogo*]

Lidstrom is #13 on the all-time D list.

 

[Habsfan 32]

Top 15 for sure.

 

[Goldark]

He could have retired at the end of the 2002 season and he'd have been a lock.

Problem that Lidstrom's going to run into is the lack of competition he had for the Norris Trophy. The runner-up for the Norris in each of his three seasons were guys who were 40-ish. (Bouque [and Stevens] in 2001, Chelios in 2002 and MacInnis in 2003). While guys like Niedermayer, Pronger and Blake have gone on to have fine careers, the quantity and quality of elite defencemen isn't what we saw 10 years ago, and especially 20 years ago.

I'd say Lidstrom ranks somewhere around top 15 or 20 of all-time. Orr, Shore, Bourque and Harvey comprise the top 4 on most lists. I'd say 5-10 are Potvin, Robinson, Kelly, Fetisov, Chelios and Coffey. Park would be ahead of Lidstrom, too, and I don't see Lidstrom surpassing Park. Lidstrom would be in a class with guys like Clapper, Horton and Pilote, and that's pretty darn good. Best defenceman drafted since Leetch was picked in 1986.

I would rank Lidstrom just within the top 10. He is a better defenseman than both Chris Chelios and Paul Coffey and nearing Bourque's status.

 

[Sens Rule]

Lidstrom is the best defenceman of his era. That being said I would rank him just outside the top ten of all time. Orr, Harvey, Shore, Potvin, Kelly, Robinson, Bourque, Coffey, Chelios, and Park are better than him. Moreover, if you want to include international play, Fetisov would be ahead of him as well.

I think Lidstrom tops Chelios, Park and Robinson on this list - at least if he plays 3 or 4 more seasons. The others I don't think he will eclipse but if he somehow plays 5 or 6 more years and wins 3 more Norris trophies he could well put himself far higher on the list.

 

[Goldark]

Top5? Top10? Top25? Top50?

3 times Stanley Cup Winner
3 times Norris Trophy Winner
1 Conn Smythe Winner (first euro ever)
1 Olympic Gold
1 World Championchip title

779 points in 1073 games (regular season)
116 points in 168 games (playoffs)

Add another: Lidstrom is a 6-time first team All-Star (soon to be 7th and possibly another Norris)

This is amazing considering Nick wasn't even noticed as an elite defenseman until the late 90's. He was always overlooked before by defense partners like Paul Coffey and Vladimir Konstantinov. It wasn't until he and Larry Murphy shut down the infamous Legion of Doom in the 97 Finals (a line of Eric Lindros, John LeClair and Mikael Renberg) that he finally got noticed. Nick has been a Norris-caliber defenseman his entire career - he had 60 points and was +36 as a rookie and had 70 point seasons in the middle of the dead-puck era. Incredible.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I would rank Lidstrom just within the top 10. He is a better defenseman than both Chris Chelios and Paul Coffey and nearing Bourque's status.

Nearing Bourque? Bourque won five Norris trophies and was a perennial post-season all-star. (Most all-star births by a defenceman in NHL history). He was a first team all-star in his last year (2001). If he enjoyed a little more post-season success, he'd likely show up as No. 2 on a few more lists. (He never really had a bad playoff, but never had that dominant one).

Bourque, IMO, had the two best seasons by defenceman in the last 20 years: 1986-87 (his first Norris season, when he just missed being a unanimous selection for the Norris) and 1989-90, when he dominated the league and should have won the Hart. (He lost by two votes to Messier. Messier was the better player that year, and deservedly won the Pearson for most outstanding player, but nobody meant more to his team's success that year than Bourque [although a case could have been made for LaFontaine that year.])

Just think of it this way: Bourque was a first team all-star at age 41, despite playing over 1,700 NHL games (regular season and playoffs) prior to the 2000-01 season. His place in the top five is undebatable.

Chelios was a dominant all-round defenceman who could control all aspects of the game. He could carry a team on his back for extended periods of time with the way he played and thought the game. Coffey was the second-best offensive defenceman ever (after Orr), but was average defensively. But it's enough to get him into the top 10. He'd push Potvin for No. 5 with better defensive abilities.

 

[Flash Walken]

Nearing Bourque? Bourque won five Norris trophies and was a perennial post-season all-star. (Most all-star births by a defenceman in NHL history). He was a first team all-star in his last year (2001). If he enjoyed a little more post-season success, he'd likely show up as No. 2 on a few more lists. (He never really had a bad playoff, but never had that dominant one).

Bourque, IMO, had the two best seasons by defenceman in the last 20 years: 1986-87 (his first Norris season, when he just missed being a unanimous selection for the Norris) and 1989-90, when he dominated the league and should have won the Hart. (He lost by two votes to Messier. Messier was the better player that year, and deservedly won the Pearson for most outstanding player, but nobody meant more to his team's success that year than Bourque [although a case could have been made for LaFontaine that year.])

Just think of it this way: Bourque was a first team all-star at age 41, despite playing over 1,700 NHL games (regular season and playoffs) prior to the 2000-01 season. His place in the top five is undebatable.

Chelios was a dominant all-round defenceman who could control all aspects of the game. He could carry a team on his back for extended periods of time with the way he played and thought the game. Coffey was the second-best offensive defenceman ever (after Orr), but was average defensively. But it's enough to get him into the top 10. He'd push Potvin for No. 5 with better defensive abilities.

Excellent post.

I just learned so much.

 

[Goldark]

Nearing Bourque? Bourque won five Norris trophies and was a perennial post-season all-star. (Most all-star births by a defenceman in NHL history). He was a first team all-star in his last year (2001). If he enjoyed a little more post-season success, he'd likely show up as No. 2 on a few more lists. (He never really had a bad playoff, but never had that dominant one).

Bourque, IMO, had the two best seasons by defenceman in the last 20 years: 1986-87 (his first Norris season, when he just missed being a unanimous selection for the Norris) and 1989-90, when he dominated the league and should have won the Hart. (He lost by two votes to Messier. Messier was the better player that year, and deservedly won the Pearson for most outstanding player, but nobody meant more to his team's success that year than Bourque [although a case could have been made for LaFontaine that year.])

Just think of it this way: Bourque was a first team all-star at age 41, despite playing over 1,700 NHL games (regular season and playoffs) prior to the 2000-01 season. His place in the top five is undebatable.

Chelios was a dominant all-round defenceman who could control all aspects of the game. He could carry a team on his back for extended periods of time with the way he played and thought the game. Coffey was the second-best offensive defenceman ever (after Orr), but was average defensively. But it's enough to get him into the top 10. He'd push Potvin for No. 5 with better defensive abilities.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on Chelios and Coffey. As a Detroit fan, I've seen all 3 players here long enough to make what I believe a sound judgment (albeit, Chelly's years in Detroit were past his peak)

I said Lidstrom was nearing Bourque's status. If Nick has an excellent, Norris-caliber 4-5 more years, he will be right up there with Bourque. Nick's game depends on his intelligence and his on-ice instincts. He's never been extremely quick and as such, I don't see him declining drastically as he nears the end of his career.

Another thing in Lidstrom's favor and what he has over Bourque is that he's won 3 Stanley Cups, playing an integral part in each of them and winning the Conn Smythe; he has been the best player on one of the best teams for over a decade.
If we're talking about international play, Lidstrom was arguably Sweden's MVP during their gold medal run (ask Mats Sundin).

It's not his fault, but Ray's lone championship came basically from him being a rental on a stacked Colorado team. Before his last year, he could have been considered the Marcel Dionne of defenseman, a great player who never won it all.

 

[Ogopogo*]

This is how I see it:

1. Bobby Orr
2. Eddie Shore
3. Ray Bourque
4. Doug Harvey
5. Red Kelly
6. King Clancy
7. Paul Coffey
8. Earl Seibert
9. Denis Potvin
10. Larry Robinson
11. Lionel Conacher
12. Pierre Pilote
13. Nick Lidstrom
14. Brad Park
15. Harry Cameron
16. Al MacInnis
17. Rod Langway
18. Dit Clapper
19. Scott Stevens
20. Chris Chelios
21. Sprague Cleghorn
22. Ebbie Goodfellow
23. Jack Stewart
24. Bill Gadsby
25. Brian Leetch

 

[kmad]

I put him third overall behind Orr and Harvey. Possibly 2nd all-time due to Harvey's legend increasing with time.

People find it hard to accept that Lidstrom would be an all-time great because they see highlight reels of Orr deking out nine guys and roofing one backhanded, or Potvin with an end to end rush shorthanded, and expect that these legendary defensemen did this three or four times a game.

In 20 years, Lidstrom will be remembered as one of the top three all-time defensemen, and one of the top ten all-time players. I guarantee it.

 

[silver_made*]

This is how I see it:

1. Bobby Orr
2. Eddie Shore
3. Ray Bourque
4. Doug Harvey
5. Red Kelly
6. King Clancy
7. Paul Coffey
8. Earl Seibert
9. Denis Potvin
10. Larry Robinson
11. Lionel Conacher
12. Pierre Pilote
13. Nick Lidstrom
14. Brad Park
15. Harry Cameron
16. Al MacInnis
17. Rod Langway
18. Dit Clapper
19. Scott Stevens
20. Chris Chelios
21. Sprague Cleghorn
22. Ebbie Goodfellow
23. Jack Stewart
24. Bill Gadsby
25. Brian Leetch

is this a joke? are you 90+ years old? gotta laugh at those who 'rank' players they have never seen outside of dvd clips, if that.

 

[Higgy4]

I think he is just on the outside of the Top 10 right now. But its pretty clear that he probably has 3-4 very good years ahead of him. I think he surpass some others yet.

Also, I will give Coffey a top 10 spot due to his incredible dominance as an offensive defensman. His numbers are just too much to ignore. But I can think of about 50 defensman off the top of my head that I would rather have to anchor my blueline over Paul Coffey. Nicklas Lidstrom IS a better defensman than Paul Coffey was.

 

[Form and Substance]

This is how I see it:

1. Bobby Orr
2. Eddie Shore
3. Ray Bourque
4. Doug Harvey
5. Red Kelly
6. King Clancy
7. Paul Coffey
8. Earl Seibert
9. Denis Potvin
10. Larry Robinson
11. Lionel Conacher
12. Pierre Pilote
13. Nick Lidstrom
14. Brad Park
15. Harry Cameron
16. Al MacInnis
17. Rod Langway
18. Dit Clapper
19. Scott Stevens
20. Chris Chelios
21. Sprague Cleghorn
22. Ebbie Goodfellow
23. Jack Stewart
24. Bill Gadsby
25. Brian Leetch

At anyrate wasn't Clapper a left winger for about half his career *which was still a good ten years, an anomaly in that era.).

 

[Flash Walken]

is this a joke? are you 90+ years old? gotta laugh at those who 'rank' players they have never seen outside of dvd clips, if that.

If you knew the work that goes into his rankings, you'd probably eat your words.

edit: some suggested readings
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=146557
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=223361
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=140085