How good do we think we are?

With all this are we a contender talk, where do folks rank us right now?


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BlueMed

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Jul 18, 2019
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Do last year's playoffs not count?

Looking at just road games where the opposition could exploit last change against him, he had a CF% of 62.66, a FF% of 61.15, a GF% of 56.25, and xGF% of 53.07, a SCF%% of 64.55, a HDCF% of 56.60, and a HDGF% of 60%. Those numbers are absolutely fantastic.

Makar's numbers vs Dallas on the road: 54:37 even strength TOI over 3 games and 52.63 offensive zone start %. CF% of 59.17, FF% of 59.42, GF% of 54.55, xGF% of 55.38, SCF% of 61.54, HDCF% of 55.56, and a HDGF% of 55.56. Again, fantastic despite a very good team being able to use last change to exploit his perceived defensive liabilities. In fact, he was drastically better vs Dallas than Hedman was.

Hedman's numbers vs Dallas on the road: 56:25 even strength TOI over 3 games and a 70% offensive zone faceoff %. CF% of 56.25, FF% of 56.96, GF% 33.33, xGF% 46.43, SCF% 44.90, HDCF% of 28.57, HDGF% 0.00

Makar was sheltered significantly less than Hedman and drastically outperformed Hedman when Dallas had last change.

Advanced possession stats hold by far the most predictive value of any hockey stat. Teams and players that consistently dominate time and quality of possession consistently succeed more than teams that don't.

I suggest you stay out of topics asking you to compare the Blues to other teams if you aren't interested in discussions about the quality of other teams. There is just no way to discuss whether the Blues are a favorite/contender/bubble team without an honest look at the teams we are directly competing with.

You have lost the forest for the trees, bud. Advanced statistics are great for static sports like baseball and golf, but not so much for dynamic sports like hockey. They are pretty useless when it comes to making future predictions in large part due their inability to integrate qualitative data accurately. The same advanced stats predicted Tampa sweeping Columbus, but the reality was completely the opposite.
 
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Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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You have lost the forest for the trees, bud. Advanced statistics are great for static sports like baseball and golf, but not so much for dynamic sports like hockey. They are pretty useless when it comes to making future predictions in large part due their inability to integrate qualitative data accurately. The same advanced stats predicted Tampa sweeping Columbus, but the reality was completely the opposite.
They absolutely did not. Tampa drastically outperformed their advances stats that year and Columbus underperformed theirs. Advanced stats people were the only people saying Columbus had a chance and they certainly weren't predicting a sweep based on possession/advanced stats. That season, Tampa was 8th in xGF% while Columbus was 12th. 9th vs 12th in CF%. Advanced stats were the only metrics giving Columbus a chance. Columbus sweeping a Tampa team everyone loved based on record and eye test is a perfect demonstration of how they are the most predictive info we have.

Last year Vegas, Tampa, and Dallas were all top 5 in xGF%. All 3 teams made the Conference Final. The last team in the Conference Final was the Islanders, who were 20th.

In 2019 Carolina, San Jose and St. Louis were all top 5 in xGF%. All 3 teams made the Conference Final. The last team was the Bruins, who were 9th.
 

BlueMed

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Jul 18, 2019
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They absolutely did not. Tampa drastically outperformed their advances stats that year and Columbus underperformed theirs. Advanced stats people were the only people saying Columbus had a chance and they certainly weren't predicting a sweep based on possession/advanced stats. That season, Tampa was 8th in xGF% while Columbus was 12th. 9th vs 12th in CF%. Advanced stats were the only metrics giving Columbus a chance. Columbus sweeping a Tampa team everyone loved based on record and eye test is a perfect demonstration of how they are the most predictive info we have.

Last year Vegas, Tampa, and Dallas were all top 5 in xGF%. All 3 teams made the Conference Final. The last team in the Conference Final was the Islanders, who were 20th.

In 2019 Carolina, San Jose and St. Louis were all top 5 in xGF%. All 3 teams made the Conference Final. The last team was the Bruins, who were 9th.

[Edited]
 
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Stupendous Yappi

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There is no way the advanced stats predicted Columbus was going to beat Tampa. Tampa did much better in almost every metric. But go ahead and believe what you want. You're still not convincing many people that Colorado has the best D core in the league.

ADVANCED STATS

Regular season 5-on-5 numbers via Natural Stat Trick (with league rank)
Columbus: 49.11 CF% (20th), 50.61 GF% (15th), 92.81 SV% (5th), 6.80 SH% (28th), 0.996 PDO (21st)
Tampa Bay: 52.25 CF% (5th), 57.04 GF% (3rd), 92.53 SV% (7th), 9.71 SH% (1st), 1.022 PDO (2nd)

REGULAR SEASON TEAM STATS

Columbus: 16.4 PP% (27th), 81.7 PK% (12th), 180 GF (28th), 183 GA (3rd)
Tampa Bay: 23.1 PP% (5th), 81.4 PK% (14th), 243 GF (1st), 194 GA (10th)
Can you find anyone anywhere who predicted Columbus to win that series in 4 games? Just because of an outlier outcome, I’m not sure what you’re trying to express here. That no one should try to employ predictive models? To me, any and every prediction system will turn out wrong at times. That’s the nature of sports. There are upsets. But that hardly seems like justification to throw out the entire effort to improve predictive models. It’s interesting to discuss them and analyze them.
 
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Blueston

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Colorado is good but they are getting overrated a bit. They have a really nice top 6 with Burakovsky, MacKinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog, Kadri, and Saad, but the Jets' top 6 is just as good with Ehlers, Scheifele, Wheeler, Laine, Stastny, and Connor. One problem with this forum is that people are so obsessed with these small details that they lose sight of the bigger picture. The reality is, a lot of teams are really close in terms of talent, but the media picks a lot of favorites early on, which is why people were so surprised when Columbus knocked out Tampa and Toronto. The question isn't which team necessarily has more talent or better players. It's about which group of players step up when it matters. Some people are waiting for Colorado to show that first, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Jets forward group is great, but their D is lacking. Hard to take them seriously until they improve back end.
 
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BlueMed

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Jets forward group is great, but their D is lacking. Hard to take them seriously until they improve back end.

Their D isnt great, but their goaltending is much better than Colorado's. No one is predicting them ahead of Colorado, but if their team starts gelling at the right time, I wouldnt be surprised to see them beat a team like Colorado in a series. Thats why putting so much emphasis in the finer stats doesnt really hold that much value in reality.
 
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Blueston

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Their D isnt great, but their goaltending is much better than Colorado's. No one is predicting them ahead of Colorado, but if their team starts gelling at the right time, I wouldnt be surprised to see them beat a team like Colorado in a series. Thats why putting so much emphasis in the finer stats doesnt really hold that much value in reality.
Anything can happen in short series. But Jets don’t look to be on Colorado level.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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There is no way the advanced stats predicted Columbus was going to beat Tampa. Tampa did much better in almost every metric. But go ahead and believe what you want. You're still not convincing many people that Colorado has the best D core in the league.

ADVANCED STATS

Regular season 5-on-5 numbers via Natural Stat Trick (with league rank)
Columbus: 49.11 CF% (20th), 50.61 GF% (15th), 92.81 SV% (5th), 6.80 SH% (28th), 0.996 PDO (21st)
Tampa Bay: 52.25 CF% (5th), 57.04 GF% (3rd), 92.53 SV% (7th), 9.71 SH% (1st), 1.022 PDO (2nd)

REGULAR SEASON TEAM STATS

Columbus: 16.4 PP% (27th), 81.7 PK% (12th), 180 GF (28th), 183 GA (3rd)
Tampa Bay: 23.1 PP% (5th), 81.4 PK% (14th), 243 GF (1st), 194 GA (10th)

You cited the numbers for the 2019/20 season. Columbus swept the Lightning in the 2018/19 season. Literally no one believes that 2020 stats could be predictive of a 2019 result. That would require time travel and would render any prediction completely and totally pointless. Why travel forward to 2020, review those stats and travel back to 2019 to make a prediction when you could just travel forward a few days and read the box score?

Columbus was a noticeably worse team last year than they were in 2019. That tends to happen when an 85 point forward, a 70 point forward and two time Vezina winner all leave in free agency. Their drop in advanced stats reflect that.

You have incredibly provided amazing data in favor of the predictive ability of advanced stats in your attempt to call them meaningless.

In 2018/19 Tampa and Columbus were evenly matched when looking at advanced metrics. 9 v 12 in CF%, 9 v 12 in xGF%, 10 v 11 in SCF%, and 11 v 14 in HDCF%. Despite the overwhelming gap in the standings, the advanced stats suggested that Tampa was not an elite team and that Columbus was very evenly matched. Columbus swept them.

In 2019/20, the advanced stats suggested that Columbus took a step backward and Tampa took a step forward. Advanced stats suggested that Tampa was now a much better team than Columbus and they demonstrated that in the playoffs. Tampa won the series 4-1 and then went on to win the Cup. Yet another Cup winner who was a top 5 team based on analytics.
 
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BlueMed

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You cited the numbers for the 2019/20 season. Columbus swept the Lightning in the 2018/19 season. Literally no one believes that 2020 stats could be predictive of a 2019 result. That would require time travel and would render any prediction completely and totally pointless. Why travel forward to 2020, review those stats and travel back to 2019 to make a prediction when you could just travel forward a few days and read the box score?

Columbus was a noticeably worse team last year than they were in 2019. That tends to happen when an 85 point forward, a 70 point forward and two time Vezina winner all leave in free agency. Their drop in advanced stats reflect that.

You have incredibly provided amazing data in favor of the predictive ability of advanced stats in your attempt to call them meaningless.

In 2018/19 Tampa and Columbus were evenly matched when looking at advanced metrics. 9 v 12 in CF%, 9 v 12 in xGF%, 10 v 11 in SCF%, and 11 v 14 in HDCF%. Despite the overwhelming gap in the standings, the advanced stats suggested that Tampa was not an elite team and that Columbus was very evenly matched. Columbus swept them.

In 2019/20, the advanced stats suggested that Columbus took a step backward and Tampa took a step forward. Advanced stats suggested that Tampa was now a much better team than Columbus and they demonstrated that in the playoffs. Tampa won the series 4-1 and then went on to win the Cup. Yet another Cup winner who was a top 5 team based on analytics.

My mistake. Regardless, discussing the value of analytics using Columbus and Tampa definitely isn't relevant to this topic's original intent of discussion. Let's stay on topic.
 

Ranksu

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My mistake. Regardless, discussing the value of analytics using Columbus and Tampa definitely isn't relevant to this topic's original intent of discussion. Let's stay on topic.
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Xerloris

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Advanced possession stats hold by far the most predictive value of any hockey stat. Teams and players that consistently dominate time and quality of possession consistently succeed more than teams that don't.



I suggest you stay out of topics asking you to compare the Blues to other teams if you aren't interested in discussions about the quality of other teams. There is just no way to discuss whether the Blues are a favorite/contender/bubble team without an honest look at the teams we are directly competing with.

This is not the correct post of yours I mean to respond to but talking about how good Colorado's defense is, I want to remind you that the best defense is a great offense and they really do have a great offense that can hold and control the puck which in turn makes defense look better.
 
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Brian39

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This is not the correct post of yours I mean to respond to but talking about how good Colorado's defense is, I want to remind you that the best defense is a great offense and they really do have a great offense that can hold and control the puck which in turn makes defense look better.
You are correct, but their D are incredibly active in the offensive zone and play a massive role in their cycle/possession game. They are also incredibly mobile. Their blue line is built around quickly exiting their own zone, moving through the neutral zone with speed and driving offense. I don't think there is a blue line in the NHL that is more active in the offensive zone, especially below the opposition's goal line. I've never seen a team rely on a D man to play the F1 role as much as them. It's not all that rare for both D to be below the opponents has marks playing the F1 and F2/F3 roles while the forward group goes for a change. Their ability to effectively forecheck, get possession and then rotate back to the top of the zone once forward help arrives is unique in the NHL. In many situations where a tired group would normally dump the puck in and change all 5 guys, the Avs frequently rely on a D man to skate the puck through the neutral zone, chip it in, and pursue the puck while the 3 guys change (or if they can make a clean entry do so and go to a quiet area until help arrives). When successful, fresh forward help arrives, the Avs gain/maintain possession, the D rotates back and then goes for a change while the fresh players start establishing a cycle. This kind of play happens a lot in junior hockey, but you don't see it much in the NHL. It's one of the many ways the Avs D drives offensive possession and ultimately gets the puck onto the sticks of their fantastic top 9. It is also the main reason they dominated the 2nd period so much. Having the line change take place at the opponent blue line allows this strategy to work even better because the forward reinforcement arrives quicker and the D man who acted as F1 can get off the ice quicker once the cycle has gotten going with the fresh players. They led the league in 2nd period goals for AND goals against. Activating their mobile D to take advantage of the long change was a massive driver of that.

The offense is great and absolutely is a factor in the team's ability to maintain control in the offensive zone. I'm not trying to say otherwise, but the D is a huge contributor to the offensive zone possession. I think their D group plays a larger role in driving offensive zone time than any other team in the league. It is one of the only D group in the league that is build specifically around the idea that "offense is the best defense" and one of the only teams that gives their D so much freedom in the offensive zone.
 
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fishsandwichpatrol

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Hard to say with the changes, especially losing Petro, but we should have gone farther than we did thanks to the COVID delay, so we should at least be a contender. Too much change to say for sure if we're a favorite, and I can't imagine us sucking and missing the playoffs.
 

DeuceNine

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Can you find anyone anywhere who predicted Columbus to win that series in 4 games? Just because of an outlier outcome, I’m not sure what you’re trying to express here. That no one should try to employ predictive models? To me, any and every prediction system will turn out wrong at times. That’s the nature of sports. There are upsets. But that hardly seems like justification to throw out the entire effort to improve predictive models. It’s interesting to discuss them and analyze them.
Yeah, that's hockey. Although advanced stats have their use, hockey at the NHL level seems to be the least predictable out of all professional sports. That's a perception, so I'm sure Brian39 will have something more concrete LOL.
 

Brian39

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Yeah, that's hockey. Although advanced stats have their use, hockey at the NHL level seems to be the least predictable out of all professional sports. That's a perception, so I'm sure Brian39 will have something more concrete LOL.
Hockey is hands down the hardest to predict. So much randomness in hockey.
 
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Ranksu

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No PP icetime for Faulk. Only means his point produce will automatically be low.

 

cardinalnation

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First half of the season I expect the Blues to be just above .500. In the second half I think they will be a Beast. When the Playoffs begin I think they are one of the 2 or 3 best teams in Hockey and my vote reflected that.
It will take time to work out the new leadership roles after losing their big three to retirement and free agency but there is still a ton of leaders on this squad. Also new lines and defensive pairings will take a month or more to get comfortable with but once that process is done look out.
The Blues are loaded with play makers and snipers up front and have upped the team speed this year. Plus guys like Sanford and Blais have been pushed into lesser roles which is a by product of the talent and depth up front. Clifford will be a guy that Blues Nation will hate in the first half but be happy with before the season ends. My guess is he lights a fire under his line mates and Sunny has a bounce back season. Mikola plays about half the games and becomes one of their surprise players.
My biggest worry is the lack of experience in Goal but both guys are talented will play well enough to backstop and excellent team in front of them. I have faith in Berube and Army and am looking forward to see a more skilled team in 2021.

ALL HAIL THE CHIEF AND CUE UP GLORIA BABY!
 

Ted Hoffman

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7-4-1 through 12 games, or about 20% of the season. We're getting to the point where we've got a large enough sample size to work with. Anyone want to change their views from the pre-season?
 

EastonBlues22

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The compressed season really alters things. Normally I'd wait until about 30 games to start forming up thoughts about the team, and then I'd re-evaluate in the 50-60 game range when it's time to start thinking about the trade deadline and whatnot. It's just hard to take 12 games as a meaningful indicator of much of anything, even thought it's a fifth of this season.

With those caveats firmly in place, I will say that a fringe top 10 offense, a fringe top 10 defense, and two bottom 5 special teams units do not a contender make.
 

GoldenSeal

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Team needs to take a major step with Special Teams, fire whoever and hire whoever will right it. Fix that and sans injuries we got a real contender.
 

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