How do you rate the international tournaments?

Yakushev72

Registered User
Dec 27, 2010
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I don't know that Russia could have beat the Nazi's on their own, but I agree that Russia paid a huge price in WW2 and made an enormous, courageous contribution to the war effort. If the situation had been different and a fascist state had attacked Canada I hope the Russians would have been there to help us, but I guess we will never know.

Its laughable when you imply that Canadians "were there to help" the Soviets (Canada lacked the military strength to provide anything other than token assistance to the US and Great Britain). The fact is that the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in June of 1941. The Western Allies waited three years, until June 1944, when the war was almost over, to enter the ground war against the Germans. Why did they wait so long?

The only help received from the Western Allies during that period was under the US Lend Lease program, where they shipped Spam to the Soviet Union in mass quantities. Hundreds of thousands of Soviet citizens had already starved to death, and the Spam kept many more alive.

In 1943, the German invasion was broken at Stalingrad, and the Germans launched a hasty retreat, being decimated by Soviet forces along the way. By Spring of 1944, all of the Soviet Union had been recaptured, and the Red Army controlled all of Eastern Europe, the Balkans, and Eastern Germany, standing at the gates of Berlin. Roosevelt and Churchill were candid about the fact that they couldn't sit on the sidelines any longer. Failure to join in on the ground war would risk, in their minds, the threat that the Red Army would roll unimpeded throughout all of Continental Europe, and that the Western Allies would be locked out of the peace table. The Red Army had destroyed enough of the German war machine by then that destruction of the Third Reich was already a fait accompli. The Western Allies launched an urgent invasion of Normandy to attack the now-decimated German war machine, and were able to race through sparse German forces to meet the Soviets at the Elbe dividing Eastern and Western Germany. I've never seen any mention of Canada in historical acccounts of the war.
 

Zine

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
11,984
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Rostov-on-Don
Its laughable when you imply that Canadians "were there to help" the Soviets (Canada lacked the military strength to provide anything other than token assistance to the US and Great Britain). The fact is that the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in June of 1941. The Western Allies waited three years, until June 1944, when the war was almost over, to enter the ground war against the Germans. Why did they wait so long?

The only help received from the Western Allies during that period was under the US Lend Lease program, where they shipped Spam to the Soviet Union in mass quantities. Hundreds of thousands of Soviet citizens had already starved to death, and the Spam kept many more alive.

In 1943, the German invasion was broken at Stalingrad, and the Germans launched a hasty retreat, being decimated by Soviet forces along the way. By Spring of 1944, all of the Soviet Union had been recaptured, and the Red Army controlled all of Eastern Europe, the Balkans, and Eastern Germany, standing at the gates of Berlin. Roosevelt and Churchill were candid about the fact that they couldn't sit on the sidelines any longer. Failure to join in on the ground war would risk, in their minds, the threat that the Red Army would roll unimpeded throughout all of Continental Europe, and that the Western Allies would be locked out of the peace table. The Red Army had destroyed enough of the German war machine by then that destruction of the Third Reich was already a fait accompli. The Western Allies launched an urgent invasion of Normandy to attack the now-decimated German war machine, and were able to race through sparse German forces to meet the Soviets at the Elbe dividing Eastern and Western Germany. I've never seen any mention of Canada in historical acccounts of the war.

I agree. It's absurd to suggest Canada was there to help the Soviet Union. They entered the war on behalf of their western allies (particularly and obviously Britain)

However, to be fair, Canada DID play a valuable support role.....certainly in supplying the allies they did. They also were valuable when taking part in the odd battle here and there.

Still, all things considered, the outcome of the war would've been the same without Canada's involvement....just more difficult and time consuming. Their contribution is miniscule compared to that of USSR, USA, Britain, etc; however, it doesn't detract from the fact they did contribute to the war effort and those who served and gave their lives should be honored.


Edit: How did we get THIS FAR off topic?:laugh:
 

NMF78

Registered User
Feb 25, 2010
659
13
Belgium
Nobody enters a war to help another, they do it because its in there best intrest to do so. There's nothing altriustic about it, just cold hard geopolitics.
 

Yakushev72

Registered User
Dec 27, 2010
4,550
372
I agree. It's absurd to suggest Canada was there to help the Soviet Union. They entered the war on behalf of their western allies (particularly and obviously Britain)

However, to be fair, Canada DID play a valuable support role.....certainly in supplying the allies they did. They also were valuable when taking part in the odd battle here and there.

Still, all things considered, the outcome of the war would've been the same without Canada's involvement....just more difficult and time consuming. Their contribution is miniscule compared to that of USSR, USA, Britain, etc; however, it doesn't detract from the fact they did contribute to the war effort and those who served and gave their lives should be honored.


Edit: How did we get THIS FAR off topic?:laugh:

I agree that Canada did contribute to the Western alliance effort. They may also have provided some food aid that reached the Soviet Union, and if so, they deserve credit for it. And again, I realize that Mr. K was just throwing out some bait with the statement to the effect that the Canadians were there for the Soviet people. But the fact that the Allies waited three years before making a beach head, sitting back and just letting the Germans pound away at the Soviets before deciding they had no choice other than to jump into the fighting before the geopolitical realities spun out of control, exposed Mr. K's statement for what it was.

Also, I agree that we exhausted the original thread topic long ago, and since there is nothing left to discuss about which are the most important tournaments, going off topic seems to be the only option left to keep this entertaining.
 

Muuri

Registered User
Nov 14, 2009
1,813
184
The ****? Can't you start your own threads for this garbage? I came here to read about international hockey tournaments.
 

daver

Registered User
Apr 4, 2003
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Its laughable when you imply that Canadians "were there to help" the Soviets (Canada lacked the military strength to provide anything other than token assistance to the US and Great Britain). The fact is that the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in June of 1941. The Western Allies waited three years, until June 1944, when the war was almost over, to enter the ground war against the Germans. Why did they wait so long?

The only help received from the Western Allies during that period was under the US Lend Lease program, where they shipped Spam to the Soviet Union in mass quantities. Hundreds of thousands of Soviet citizens had already starved to death, and the Spam kept many more alive.

In 1943, the German invasion was broken at Stalingrad, and the Germans launched a hasty retreat, being decimated by Soviet forces along the way. By Spring of 1944, all of the Soviet Union had been recaptured, and the Red Army controlled all of Eastern Europe, the Balkans, and Eastern Germany, standing at the gates of Berlin. Roosevelt and Churchill were candid about the fact that they couldn't sit on the sidelines any longer. Failure to join in on the ground war would risk, in their minds, the threat that the Red Army would roll unimpeded throughout all of Continental Europe, and that the Western Allies would be locked out of the peace table. The Red Army had destroyed enough of the German war machine by then that destruction of the Third Reich was already a fait accompli. The Western Allies launched an urgent invasion of Normandy to attack the now-decimated German war machine, and were able to race through sparse German forces to meet the Soviets at the Elbe dividing Eastern and Western Germany. I've never seen any mention of Canada in historical acccounts of the war.

Where was Russia when Germany was invading Britain? I believe the Western allies were quite happy to have Germany and Russia beat crap out of each other until they had to make a move. Britain was just as wary of Russia as they were of Germany, and the alliance between Germany and Russia made them even more so.
 

Zine

Registered User
Feb 28, 2002
11,984
1,809
Rostov-on-Don
Where was Russia when Germany was invading Britain? I believe the Western allies were quite happy to have Germany and Russia beat crap out of each other until they had to make a move. Britain was just as wary of Russia as they were of Germany, and the alliance between Germany and Russia made them even more so.

You just helped make his point.:huh::handclap:

Nobody goes to war as a 'good samaritan'.....they do so out of self-interest.

OK, BACK TO HOCKEY!
 

Yakushev72

Registered User
Dec 27, 2010
4,550
372
Where was Russia when Germany was invading Britain? I believe the Western allies were quite happy to have Germany and Russia beat crap out of each other until they had to make a move. Britain was just as wary of Russia as they were of Germany, and the alliance between Germany and Russia made them even more so.

I agree with everything that you said except the part where you say Germany invaded Britain. That never happened. The Germans bombed Britain, but they never attempted to launch a land invasion.
 

Yakushev72

Registered User
Dec 27, 2010
4,550
372
Where was Russia when Germany was invading Britain? I believe the Western allies were quite happy to have Germany and Russia beat crap out of each other until they had to make a move. Britain was just as wary of Russia as they were of Germany, and the alliance between Germany and Russia made them even more so.

One last point - in regard to the "treaty" (Molotov-Von Ribbentrop) that you reference between Germany and the Soviet Union, I think it is fair to say that world historians believe that this was not a treaty born of love or common goals. Instead, the Soviets were motivated by their own survival. They believed that a German invasion was inevitable because the Nazis hated communism, and because Germany coveted oil and other resources that were plentiful in the USSR. The Soviets were almost completely unprepared for war in 1937, and if Hitler would have attacked then, at a minimum, the price would have been infinitely greater to repel the invasion. As others have said, whether its Canada, the US, or the USSR, nations go to war out of self-interest, not altruism.
 

Mr Kanadensisk

Registered User
May 13, 2005
3,013
12
One last point - in regard to the "treaty" (Molotov-Von Ribbentrop) that you reference between Germany and the Soviet Union, I think it is fair to say that world historians believe that this was not a treaty born of love or common goals. Instead, the Soviets were motivated by their own survival. They believed that a German invasion was inevitable because the Nazis hated communism, and because Germany coveted oil and other resources that were plentiful in the USSR. The Soviets were almost completely unprepared for war in 1937, and if Hitler would have attacked then, at a minimum, the price would have been infinitely greater to repel the invasion. As others have said, whether its Canada, the US, or the USSR, nations go to war out of self-interest, not altruism.

But yet not one of you who make this claim have been able to answer the most basic question about Canada's involvement. What was in it for us to go to war against the Nazis?
 

Muuri

Registered User
Nov 14, 2009
1,813
184
But yet not one of you who make this claim have been able to answer the most basic question about Canada's involvement. What was in it for us to go to war against the Nazis?

What does this have to do with the international hockey tournaments?
 

24stanleycups*

Guest
Olympics from 1998 to present, Canada Cup/World cup of hockey, Ivana Hlinka tournament, and 1972 Summit Series are the only measuring sticks of true hockey power. The U-20 is a decent tournament to determine the best, but it is always canada's dominance who get's understated the most as year in and year out or elite youngster's are playing with their respective NHL clubs, although having the most championships alltime, 10 straight gold medal game appearances and winning it all, 5 of the last 7 years without our best, speaks for itself.
 

Eamonn*

Guest
I enjoy the World Juniors a lot, but the Olympics are only on every 4 years so that gets the edge.. don't really care for the WC or the WU-18 though.
 

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