How do you Feel About a Mandatory Vaccine at Work?

[42]

Vaccines cause mutations too. When you make it harder for a virus to spread, it will adapt to try to get past that.

Vaccines do not cause mutations. All viruses mutate all the time. Every time a virus replicates, there is a chance it will mutate. The less a virus replicates the fewer opportunities it has to mutate. Vaccinated people are less likely to be infected and spread it to others thus decreasing the number of opportunities the virus has to mutate.

 

[canucksfan]

Vaccines cause mutations too. When you make it harder for a virus to spread, it will adapt to try to get past that.

You don't really understand basic science. Viruses mutant more when they replicate. With an unvaccinated person, the virus replicates a ton. The virus barely replicates if at all in a vaccinated person.

 

[Blender]

And my hospital cancelled pediatric surgeries to make room for an adult ICU for COVID only patients.

It does happen. Well it doesn't happen with the flu or cancer or heart attacks or obesity. But with Covid, it has.

The thing ppl fail to get when talking about obesity or alcohol ect, is that we have a system prepared to deal with that. We don't have a system prepared to deal with 40% of hospitalizations coming from one sole cause. That just doesn't happen. We may peak occasionally with a bad flu year, but even that, hospitalization length of stay is significantly shorter with the flu and so beds aren't held up as long. Some surgeries may be pushed back, but we aren't cancelling massive amounts like we have this past year

Here they were airlifting patients out of the GTA to other locations in the winter/spring because many hospitals here were overwhelmed, but Ontario is huge so there was capacity elsewhere. At the start of the pandemic, Italy and Spain had people dying waiting for treatment, which is what motivated a lot of measures in other countries. Just need to look at the capacity stats in places like Arkansas right now to see some serious issues as well.

 

[Satans Hockey]

Fear mongering things that never happen for $500 Alex...

How about we completely outlaw all smoking, alcohol and dictate a daily diet to every citizen too? Those poor health choices put an even greater strain on our health care system

Smoking has been kicked out of so many places over the years and it's lovely. Hell even the Prudential Center got rid of the smoking balcony years ago. You use to be able to smoke in restaurants, airplanes, sporting events, anywhere you really wanted. Besides smokers nobody misses that.

My biggest complaint about Las Vegas was how awful the cigarette smoke is in all the casinos. I forgot that shit use to be the norm in most places.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Clearly talking about delta variant and since we've had a vaccine, I know reading comprehension is hard.

Vaccines cause mutations too. When you make it harder for a virus to spread, it will adapt to try to get past that.

Yep, you’re right. Reading comprehension is hard.

 

[TaLoN]

What if there IS a serious complication that develops from vaccines?

It would have shown itself by now. Any health effects from the vaccine can only show itself while the vaccine is in your system... which is within 2 weeks of injection. If it hasn't shown by then, it won't show.

There has been no rash of serious complications.

Fear mongering things that never happen for $500 Alex...

How about we completely outlaw all smoking, alcohol and dictate a daily diet to every citizen too? Those poor health choices put an even greater strain on our health care system

Except, it's not fear mongering at all. We saw it happen in Italy, we saw it happen in El Paso, we saw it happen in North Dakota and then recently again in Missouri.

 

[Primary Assist]

Here's an interesting podcast on this very issue:
The Tricky Calculus Behind Vaccine Mandates - The Journal. - WSJ Podcasts

A lot of interesting issues are discussed. To start, many executives weren't expecting such a harsh push-back to the vaccine and the popularity of the anti-vaxx movement, so this issue caught many corporate decision-makers flat-footed. Everyone was so excited for the world to open back up late last year/early this year, so it was expected that just about everybody would be lining up to get the vaccine. Unfortunately, and this is speaking with clear hindsight bias, a lot of people simply don't act rationally and have come to their own, unscientific conclusions about the vaccine. These people aren't of the type to keep their opinions to themselves either, so social media is being flooded with blatant misinformation regarding the safety of the vaccine and various other conspiracy theories.

Another tough issue is that we are currently seeing numerous unfilled job vacancies and a dearth of hiring talent. Employers don't want to put themselves at a disadvantage by requiring the vaccine and possibly alienating otherwise qualified candidates. This is tricky though, since they don't want to risk attrition from vaccinated employees who don't feel safe having to work with the unvaccinated.

Some of the interviewees have said that they expect more corporate-driven vaccine mandates to be issued in the coming days and weeks. On the other hand, some non-government-agency groups are of the opinion that this burden of a vaccine mandate should not fall upon employers, rather it should be federal law.

Finally, the University of Indiana recently won a legal proceeding to continue requiring a vaccine mandate for its students. They were sued to prevent this, but the court ruled that they are allowed to keep this requirement. The idea is that this will embolden more companies to go forth with the mandate without fear of legal consequences.

Overall, my takeaway from this podcast is that many executives see the obvious benefit of requiring vaccines as an issue of workplace safety.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

It's interesting that preventing vaccination requirements is supported by a group that generally fights all business regulations.

 

[tarheelhockey]

You don't really understand basic science. Viruses mutant more when they replicate. With an unvaccinated person, the virus replicates a ton. The virus barely replicates if at all in a vaccinated person.

This is a point that I wish the “even if vaccines work, I still don’t think I personally need one” crowd would just take a moment and really wrap their heads around.

Whether you think you personally need a vaccine or not, the fact is that the virus is depending on being able to copy itself a certain number of times in order to achieve mutations. By refusing to get a vaccine, you are basically volunteering your own body as a training ground for those mutations.

Each infected person carries about a billion copies of the virus… the current 7-day average is about 66K cases… those people are carrying 66 trillion copies of the virus.

Eliminating 90% of those copies isn’t just about keeping an extra 59,000 comfortable and healthy. Even if every single one of them were asymptomatic (lol) and there were no other negative effects to consider, at the very least we are talking about 59 trillion unnecessary copies of the virus per week. Do that for a full year and you’re looking at 3 quadrillion unnecessary copies of the virus.

Now even if we assume that only one in a billion copies of the virus contains a mutation, and only one in a million mutations is useful to the virus, and half the useful ones are just not that big of a deal, that still means we get a nasty variant every single year. Meaning we need a new vaccine every single year.

The alternative is to eliminate 90% of that viral load. Guess what happens to a virus which is 90% restrained by a vaccine over a 10-year timespan? It runs out of new hosts. So even though you might rationally be calculating a nasty variant to arrive in the 10th year, in reality it may never arrive at all — or at worst, it will pop up at viral Square One, with only one shot to find a new host or it dies out forever without us ever even realizing it existed.

In other words: if the virus could speak to you in English, the one thing it would want to say is “Don’t get vaccinated”. That is the only decision you’re going to make that it actually it cares about.

Get your ****ing vaccine. It’s not just about whether your personal immune system can handle the virus, it’s about your basic human responsibility not to be the source of a plague.

 

[daver]

You don't really understand basic science. Viruses mutant more when they replicate. With an unvaccinated person, the virus replicates a ton. The virus barely replicates if at all in a vaccinated person.

So even if a number of vaccinated people get COVID, it is not necessarily leading to possible mutations as much as the same number of unvaccinated people getting COVID?

Do you have a link to this information?

 

[daver]

Another tough issue is that we are currently seeing numerous unfilled job vacancies and a dearth of hiring talent. Employers don't want to put themselves at a disadvantage by requiring the vaccine and possibly alienating otherwise qualified candidates. This is tricky though, since they don't want to risk attrition from vaccinated employees who don't feel safe having to work with the unvaccinated.

For the sake of discussion only

Presuming the unvaccinated person is not an anti-vaxxer, anti-masker, anti-anything that infringes their freedoms etc..

Why would a vaccinated person feel unsafe if they are vaccinated?

Could the unvaccinated be subject to periodic testing to make things safer?

If the unvaccinated person is very unlikely to have Covid due to the numbers in the geographic region being low, does this make things safer?

 

[Pens1566]

For the sake of discussion only

Presuming the unvaccinated person is not an anti-vaxxer, anti-masker, anti-anything that infringes their freedoms etc..

Why would a vaccinated person feel unsafe if they are vaccinated?

Could the unvaccinated be subject to periodic testing to make things safer?

If the unvaccinated person is very unlikely to have Covid due to the numbers in the geographic region being low, does this make things safer?

Because being vaccinated doesn't create an impenetrable force field around you. It's still possible to get a breakthrough infection. That vaccinated person might have compromised people at home, or kids. Any number of reasons really.

 

[HabsAddict]

One of the companies I use to supply, about 100 on the floor and 30 offices/sales is in turmoil. They got a few out with covid and other employees weren't showing up so they shut down for 14 days. They called me in desperation if I have any "capacity", which is kind of funny because they were my last customer and I stopped supplying them over 2 years ago.

The problem now is that even vaccinated people are concerned if a few of their co-workers show a positive test, they may get it and pass it through their family. So it becomes DefCon 10 through the plant/office until everybody "feels" safe.

Gee, I wonder if they are now going to make it a hard mandate to either vac of vacate.

(My running joke is that we retired....into house arrest. But I'm also glad I'm NOT dealing with covid and workplace.)

 

[HabsAddict]

Because being vaccinated doesn't create an impenetrable force field around you. It's still possible to get a breakthrough infection. That vaccinated person might have compromised people at home, or kids. Any number of reasons really.

Bingo.

I'm double dosed three months ago, but I wouldn't want to work next to a person who wasn't vaccinated. Why should I take that risk?

 

[Primary Assist]

For the sake of discussion only

Presuming the unvaccinated person is not an anti-vaxxer, anti-masker, anti-anything that infringes their freedoms etc..

Why would a vaccinated person feel unsafe if they are vaccinated?

Could the unvaccinated be subject to periodic testing to make things safer?

If the unvaccinated person is very unlikely to have Covid due to the numbers in the geographic region being low, does this make things safer?

The problem with this is that there's a lag time between taking the test, showing symptoms, and getting results. Someone could take a Covid test, go into the office, and then if the test results come back positive a few days later, or if the test results were negative but the individual is showing clear symptoms of Covid, then it'll be mayhem in the workplace. The fully vaccinated workers will be fearful of a breakthrough case. Even though the odds are low, and even lower of that breakthrough case being severe, it's still enough to make a vaccinated person worry about bringing the virus back home or getting sick from a preventable virus.

If I had a co-worker who was unvaccinated since they were immunocompromised or for some other reason unable to safely get the vaccine due to allergies or something similar, then I would be legitimately worried for that co-worker's safety due to the willfully unvaccinated allowing the virus to propagate.

But thank you for adding to the discussion, I think you raise important points that need to be addressed.

 

[daver]

The problem with this is that there's a lag time between taking the test, showing symptoms, and getting results. Someone could take a Covid test, go into the office, and then if the test results come back positive a few days later, or if the test results were negative but the individual is showing clear symptoms of Covid, then it'll be mayhem in the workplace. The fully vaccinated workers will be fearful of a breakthrough case. Even though the odds are low, and even lower of that breakthrough case being severe, it's still enough to make a vaccinated person worry about bringing the virus back home or getting sick from a preventable virus.

If I had a co-worker who was unvaccinated since they were immunocompromised or for some other reason unable to safely get the vaccine due to allergies or something similar, then I would be legitimately worried for that co-worker's safety due to the willfully unvaccinated allowing the virus to propagate.

But thank you for adding to the discussion, I think you raise important points that need to be addressed.

Cheers, I am hoping to have a nuanced discussion.

I agree that someone who is not vaccinated, if not aware of their own safety, needs to take potential precautions for the greater good.

Given the possibility of the vaccinated contributing to the virus propagating, a possibility that could be very high depending on individual social engagement e.g. someone who comes in close contact with 100 people, even vaccinated ones, could potentially get the virus than more so than someone who is unvaccinated and keeps to themselves/gets tested often, at what point do we assign the responsibility of the vaccinated to not allow "the virus to propagate" for the greater good?

 

[canucksfan]

So even if a number of vaccinated people get COVID, it is not necessarily leading to possible mutations as much as the same number of unvaccinated people getting COVID?

Do you have a link to this information?

With the Delta variant, it appears if a vaccinated person were to get a breakthrough case(rare) the viral load is about the same as an unvaccinated person but the viral load doesn't last as long. In a breakthrough case, the virus would be replicating but not as long as it would in an unvaccinated person.

 

[Treb]

So even if a number of vaccinated people get COVID, it is not necessarily leading to possible mutations as much as the same number of unvaccinated people getting COVID?

Do you have a link to this information?

 

[Pens1566]

Cheers, I am hoping to have a nuanced discussion.

I agree that someone who is not vaccinated, if not aware of their own safety, needs to take potential precautions for the greater good.

Given the possibility of the vaccinated contributing to the virus propagating, a possibility that could be very high depending on individual social engagement e.g. someone who comes in close contact with 100 people, even vaccinated ones, could potentially get the virus than more so than someone who is unvaccinated and keeps to themselves/gets tested often, at what point do we assign the responsibility of the vaccinated to not allow "the virus to propagate" for the greater good?

Realistically? Never.

First have to worry about the ~40-50% (in US) that's not vaccinated. That's what is largely driving the surge. Once the total % reaches a sufficient amount, it becomes a moot point. Additionally, vaccinated individuals tend to be the same ones that have followed the guidelines and directions all along, so it's unlikely they're out there licking strangers they pass by or coughing in the faces of store workers.

 

[42]

Cheers, I am hoping to have a nuanced discussion.

I agree that someone who is not vaccinated, if not aware of their own safety, needs to take potential precautions for the greater good.

Given the possibility of the vaccinated contributing to the virus propagating, a possibility that could be very high depending on individual social engagement e.g. someone who comes in close contact with 100 people, even vaccinated ones, could potentially get the virus than more so than someone who is unvaccinated and keeps to themselves/gets tested often, at what point do we assign the responsibility of the vaccinated to not allow "the virus to propagate" for the greater good?

Clearly an unvaccinated hermit has significantly less chance to infect others than a vaccinated socialite. At the individual level, we'll find extremes but on average, a vaccinated person is much less likely to infect others. Yes, ideally individuals are well informed and socially responsible and act in accordance with their lifestyle but we know that's not going to happen with many people.

 

[pbgoalie]

It would have shown itself by now. Any health effects from the vaccine can only show itself while the vaccine is in your system... which is within 2 weeks of injection. If it hasn't shown by then, it won't show.

There has been no rash of serious complications.

so for the purposes of conversation only. there should be no problem with accepting any liability for vaccine complications if made mandatory then?

again. Just conversation. My family and I are vaccinated.

 

[TaLoN]

so for the purposes of conversation only. there should be no problem with accepting any liability for vaccine complications if made mandatory then?

again. Just conversation. My family and I are vaccinated.

If it can be proven as complications of vaccination? Sure. The Government should pay.

 

[LudwigVonKarlsson]

Bingo.

I'm double dosed three months ago, but I wouldn't want to work next to a person who wasn't vaccinated. Why should I take that risk?

I work with someone who only recently just got their first dose and another guy who doesn't plan on even getting one. Combine that with their general lack of hygiene it makes me extremely uncomfortable to be around them but no mandates = nobody gives a shit.

 

[Primary Assist]

Cheers, I am hoping to have a nuanced discussion.

I agree that someone who is not vaccinated, if not aware of their own safety, needs to take potential precautions for the greater good.

Given the possibility of the vaccinated contributing to the virus propagating, a possibility that could be very high depending on individual social engagement e.g. someone who comes in close contact with 100 people, even vaccinated ones, could potentially get the virus than more so than someone who is unvaccinated and keeps to themselves/gets tested often, at what point do we assign the responsibility of the vaccinated to not allow "the virus to propagate" for the greater good?

The other posters in this thread have done a better job than I can at answering this question, but I'd also like to make one more point. The absolute best thing an individual can do right now to prevent the spread and mutation of Covid is getting a vaccine. It's easy, quick, free, and largely painless. In terms of requesting that vaccinated individuals basically be less social than the unvaccinated, well there really isn't a way to efficiently enforce that.

A waitress at a busy restaurant, a cashier at a town's major grocery store, or a teacher in a crowded classroom will obviously come into contact much more than a white collar worker who is able to work from home. It really wouldn't be fair as a society to discriminate against the professions that have to come into contact with all sorts of different members of the public. Therefore, it's imperative that we do whatever we can to make sure that these various members of the public are protected against Covid and that mitigation measures have been enacted to curtail their spread of Covid.

If we want the economy to really open up back to normal, and not constantly be teetering on the edge of potential local shutdowns, then we have to make sure that everyone who can get the vaccine, is getting the vaccine.

 

[daver]

Clearly an unvaccinated hermit has significantly less chance to infect others than a vaccinated socialite. At the individual level, we'll find extremes but on average, a vaccinated person is much less likely to infect others. Yes, ideally individuals are well informed and socially responsible and act in accordance with their lifestyle but we know that's not going to happen with many people.

That is what I am throwing out there. If there are going to be rules and policies to keep infections in check, there may be a need to include vaccinated people also so your "many people" could include the vaccinated (if it wasn't already).