How did Clarke win the Hart over Orr in '75?

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by lasereyes26, Apr 8, 2011.

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  1. lasereyes26

    lasereyes26 Registered User

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    Any ideas as to why Orr didnt win the Hart Trophy that year? 46 goals which was a new record for a defenseman at the time as well as the Art Ross Trophy and a +101, I know stats arent everything but 46 goals as a DEFENSEMAN? Sounds like Orr got robbed that year.
     
  2. Poignant Discussion*

    Poignant Discussion* I tell it like it is

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    Was this the season in which Clarke was on the ice for 4 even strength goals for the whole year?

    ETA

    119 points +83 and second Hart in a row, I'm guessing 74-75 and 75-76 are the 2 years in which he was on the ice for something like 12 ES goals for 2 seasons

    89 Assists and the best defensive center in the game. Don't think Orr was robbed at all
     
  3. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    The Flyers finished higher in the standings than the Bruins with Clarke their best player. The relatively stacked Bruins really underachieved.
     
  4. canucks4ever

    canucks4ever Registered User

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    1976 is the only season where I would have given Clarke the hart. In 1973, philly was nowhere near first in the league. Voters were getting tired of espo and orr. In 1975, philly simply had a better goalie than boston. Orr outperformed clarke, better plus minus, 20 more points, and he did this as a defenseman.

    Orr's 1975 and Mario's 1989 seasons are perfect examples of why I don;t treat the hart as the best player award, its heavily based on who the writers prefer.
     
  5. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Orr didn't even finish second in 1975. Vachon was a close second, and Orr a distant third.
     
  6. reckoning

    reckoning Registered User

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    The Bruins underachieved big time that season, dropping almost 20 points. Now no one would suggest that was Orr's fault, but fairly or unfairly it's almost impossible for a player to win MVP on a team that falls that much. As mentioned earlier, Rogie Vachon also finished ahead of Orr. L.A. was a team that overachieved that year.

    Also keep in mind that it's towards the end of the season when people start talking about who should win awards, so what happens during the stretch drive will end up being a bigger factor in the voters minds. The Bruins only won 2 of their last 12 games. The Flyers finished the season with a 14 game unbeaten streak. Clarke had 43 points in his last 20 games, including an 18 game scoring streak (the longest in the league that season). None of this would have impacted the Pearson voting which ended a month before the season finished, but would be fresh in the voters minds in April when they voted on the Hart.

    A similar situation is happening this year with Corey Perry and the torrid pace he's been on the last month. Right now with people talking about who should win the Hart, he's got all the momentum. But 35 years from now, someone may look at the stats and wonder why he won over Thomas or Sedin. (I predict that Perry will win the Hart, but won't win the Pearson/Lindsay which has already been voted on).

    Add in other intangible factors: Clarke's elite defence, his reputation as the best leader in the game, Reggie Leach suddenly blossoming into a top goal scorer after being put on Clarke's line, etc. It's not unthinkable to understand why Clarke would've won.
     
  7. FiveForDrawingBlood

    FiveForDrawingBlood Registered User

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    Hart - Most valuable to his team. Philly had a great year in '75 while Boston tailed off a bit
     
  8. JackSlater

    JackSlater Registered User

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    Team accomplishments, voter fatigue, Orr being a defencemen and general stupidity.
     
  9. lextune

    lextune I'm too old for this.

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    Very few bigger Orr fans than myself, and I'll say this; Clarke deserved it. Big time.
     
  10. Psycho Papa Joe

    Psycho Papa Joe Porkchop Hoser

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    It basically came down to the Bruins have a poor year by their standards, whereas Clarke was the leader of the best team in the World at the time.

    That said, I don't think anyone doubts that Orr was the most Outstanding player that year. Voters just thought Clarke was more valuable to his team's success, a team much more successfull than the Bruins that year.
     
  11. Drake1588

    Drake1588 UNATCO

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    In that season, Bobby Clarke was a tremendous defensive player while also posting 116 points, captain of the best team in the league, and a PPG player in the playoffs. In short, he was the best player in the game... perhaps not by very much over Orr, but it was not a shock to anyone. This was an outstanding player.

    If nothing else, note that team success usually plays a big part in Hart voting. The Bruins were in an off year. Leading a team to nowhere is usually a poor recipe for Hart success.
     
  12. RabbinsDuck

    RabbinsDuck Registered User

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    Who was better defensively? Orr or Clarke?
     
  13. JackSlater

    JackSlater Registered User

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    No forward has ever been better defensively than a defenceman who is elite defensively.
     
  14. lextune

    lextune I'm too old for this.

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    Clarke had the greatest season a two-way forward has ever had.

    It bordered on the absurd.
     
  15. BamBamCam*

    BamBamCam* Guest

    huh?

    I go back and forth on this. Obviously, Clarke had a spectacular year and was deserving. I think Orr lost because the Flyers were the better team and like everyone said led the Flyers to a great finish. Also, at this point in Orr's career, it was almost expected for him to put up numbers like he did, while in retrospect, the numbers are mind boggling for a defenseman to do that, but for Orr, it was a normal season.
     
  16. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Compared to replacement value - Clarke by a mile.
     
  17. RabbinsDuck

    RabbinsDuck Registered User

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    It's an honest question. Orr is acknowledged as being great defensively for the time, but many believe Clarke was not only elite defensively, but the greatest of all-time (for a forward). Orr did spend a lot of time playing like a forward - I was just curious from those watching at the time if maybe Clarke made more of a difference when his team did not have the puck, despite their different positions.
     
  18. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Flyers allowed far fewer goals against, and it wasn't all the goaltending.
     
  19. canucks4ever

    canucks4ever Registered User

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    In 1975 Orr was a plus 80, espo and bucyk were plus 18 and 11 respectively. Clearly Orr was the one making a difference.
     
  20. JackSlater

    JackSlater Registered User

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    Yes I understand where you are coming from, but I just can't conceive of that circumstance arising. Just because of the nature of their positions it would be practically impossible for a forward to be better defensively than a defenceman who is elite defensively. I was not alive at the time this was taking place, but nothing I've seen of Clarke makes me think that he was better defensively than Orr. I do agree with Clarke being a better defensive forward than Orr a defensive defenceman.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
  21. canucks4ever

    canucks4ever Registered User

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    Exactly, on these boards people make it sound like fedorov and gilmour were as good defensively as lidstrom and bourque. Clarke wouldn't be scoring 116 points if his job was to stay back and create offense from a transition game. Its alot easier to rack up points when you play upfront. Its not a coincidence that dit clapper and red kelly all of a sudden had thier numbers spike when they moved to forward.

    Orr got just as many hart votes in 68 and 69 as he did in 1975, it was clearly voter fatigue.
     
  22. BamBamCam*

    BamBamCam* Guest

    Not to sure my friend, I don't know how you compare a forward to a defenseman. Because Orr rushed he zone does not mean he played like a forward. He was always back in position after his rush. He was a great d-man in his own right. I notice people discount his defense these days or in retrospect like he played the game like Paul Coffey or Mike Green did. He didn't play like them at all, he was spectacular in his own end also.
     
  23. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Orr wouldn't be scoring all of his points either if his job was to stay back.
     
  24. Clown Baby*

    Clown Baby* Guest

    Or, just to convolute matters...

    *How does Orr compare offensively to Clarke defensively against their respective peers (e.g. defensemen and forwards, respectively)?

    *How does Orr compare defensively to Clarke offensively against their respective peers (e.g. defensemen and forwards, respectively)?
     
  25. BamBamCam*

    BamBamCam* Guest

    What does that mean? Are you saying he played like Mike Green does, all offense and average defense? Not sure what you mean precisely.
     

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