How Come Colorado Isn't More Popular For Hockey?

IceAce

Strait Trippin'
Jun 9, 2010
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I know Illinois has been relatively successful in producing players and that the Wirtz thing was a factor but it still surprises me that it and Wisconsin aren't on the same level as other Great Lakes states. The total lack of interest in Ohio and Indiana (especially northern Indiana, think Fort Wayne and Gary instead of Indianapolis) also stuns me. Pennsylvania is another one where production has lagged behind what you might expect.

Considering OH's NHL history is one season of the Cleveland Barons and then the Blue Jackets, that shouldnt shock you.

OH and PA are pretty much the cradles of football in the Northern US. The list of NFL players produced in OH and Western PA is mind-blowing. That's the sport those areas are geared towards producing although Pittsburgh has made great strides in producing hockey talent the last 20 years which I'd say likely coincides with the Lemieux team Cups.

The Philadelphia area, who even thought they had the Flyers championships of the 70's, typically produces more basketball talent and to a lesser extent football, has started to build up their youth systems and have spit out the Bobby Ryan's and Eric Tangradi's you're seeing now. .
 

Brodie

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The main Reason is Culture. In Michigan and Minnesota you have a majority of Scandinavians that moved there to farm or mine back in the early 1900's. Now, I am only assuming that since there were so many people that migrated to these "cold" areas they took up hockey because they needed stuff to do in the winter. I know in Calumet in the U.P. hockey goes back to 1897. There in particular they had hundreds of thousands of people, mostly men, that had nothing else to do in the winter. I don't claim to know the origins of hockey but, I have heard that it may have been started by the Canadian Army. So, it easily could have been passed down through the proximity of geography.

Hockey began with British soldiers (that is to say Scots, Irish and English soldiers) adapting their various stick and ball games (shinty, hurling and field hockey, respectively) for play on the frozen over fields of Canada, perhaps incorporating things from the native game of lacrosse (there's less evidence for this but it's become a popular sentimental idea in modern Canada). The game trickled into the US via proximity, yes, and then abroad via British, Canadian and American players going overseas. Notably, hockey seems to have only truly caught on in countries that already had a tradition with stick and ball games that were played on ice (bandy).

I'm not sure how much you can tie into Scandinavian origins, as that totally excludes Massachusetts which began producing players long before Michigan did, for example. It also ignores the facts that (shockingly to some) the majority of Minnesotans are actually descended from older German settlers, while Michigan only has isolated pockets of Finnish settlement in the UP (which is not where most of our players come from).

The truth is hockey developed everywhere where it was cold enough to sustain the game and where there was enough cross border contact to facilitate it taking root.

You ever been to Gary, dude?

I'll be really blunt, a town that's at least 80% poor minorities isn't gonna have much hockey talent.

The 2 nearest rinks are mine, 30 minutes west, and 1 30 minutes south.

Expecting hockey in Gary is the same as expecting in poor parts of inter-city Detroit.

Gary was just like any midwestern industrial town that experienced a crapload of white flight in the 60's. I'm curious as to why hockey never took root before that.

Hey now, Notre Dame has a nice little hockey program.

Notre Dame might be in Indiana (literally barely, it's like 2 miles south of the Michigan border), but it is most certainly not an Indiana school.


Considering OH's NHL history is one season of the Cleveland Barons and then the Blue Jackets, that shouldnt shock you.

OH and PA are pretty much the cradles of football in the Northern US. The list of NFL players produced in OH and Western PA is mind-blowing. That's the sport those areas are geared towards producing although Pittsburgh has made great strides in producing hockey talent the last 20 years which I'd say likely coincides with the Lemieux team Cups.

The Philadelphia area, who even thought they had the Flyers championships of the 70's, typically produces more basketball talent and to a lesser extent football, has started to build up their youth systems and have spit out the Bobby Ryan's and Eric Tangradi's you're seeing now. .

I find this NHL team stuff a bit of a crutch, to be honest. Minnesota developed it's reputation for producing the best American players a decade before the North Stars showed up... the generation of Minnesotans on the Miracle on Ice team were all already 8 or 9 when the NHL came to town, meaning they'd already been playing for several years. What do the Sabres have to do with the current talent boom in Upstate New York?

I know they both produce a lot of football and basketball players, but we're talking about states with 10 million+ people apiece right in what should be hockey's American heartland. Why did Pittsburgh need those Cups to start building up infrastructure? Why does Ohio, with it's college hockey tradition that pre-dates the NHL by decades, lag so far behind in producing NHLers?
 

Big McLargehuge

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Hey now, Notre Dame has a nice little hockey program.

Notre Dame is in Indiana...but that's about it. It's a national school in every sense of the term...only 5% of the students are actually from Indiana according to The Princeton Review (92% out-of-state, 3% international).

The Fighting Irish hockey team has as many players from Colorado as from Indiana (1).
 
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No Fun Shogun

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May 1, 2011
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Hey now, Notre Dame has a nice little hockey program.

Sure, and they have a good following on their campus.... but their hockey program is a complete non-factor in the state.

Here's the way sports work in Indiana....

1) Indiana Hoosiers basketball
2) Butler/Purdue/Notre Dame basketball
3) Indianapolis Colts
4) Indianapolis 500
5) Notre Dame Irish football
6) Valpo/Ball State/other smaller DI basketball
7) Indiana Pacers
8) What eight?

If anything, and I'm being completely honest here, Chicago has a bigger Notre Dame following then Indiana, but again.... only really for football.
 

Brodie

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Notre Dame feeds into Chicago heavily and vice versa, plus Chicago has that huge multi-ethnic Catholic population... Notre Dame football was something that brought Polish and Irish and Italian, etc. communities together.
 

IceAce

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Notre Dame might be in Indiana (literally barely, it's like 2 miles south of the Michigan border), but it is most certainly not an Indiana school.

Not sure I follow? You talking enrollment wise?


I find this NHL team stuff a bit of a crutch, to be honest. Minnesota developed it's reputation for producing the best American players a decade before the North Stars showed up... the generation of Minnesotans on the Miracle on Ice team were all already 8 or 9 when the NHL came to town, meaning they'd already been playing for several years. What do the Sabres have to do with the current talent boom in Upstate New York?

I know they both produce a lot of football and basketball players, but we're talking about states with 10 million+ people apiece right in what should be hockey's American heartland. Why did Pittsburgh need those Cups to start building up infrastructure? Why does Ohio, with it's college hockey tradition that pre-dates the NHL by decades, lag so far behind in producing NHLers?

Minnesota had a culture of hockey though, most likely from their proximity to Canada. OH and Western PA have been football crazy since the inception of the NFL. Regardless of preferential climate, their focus was just diverted elsewhere. That's where the NHL steps in and helps grow the game as it gives it a national face in the area. PA didnt have NHL hockey until the late 60's, OH didnt really have it until the CBJ expansion, and even then it's been a joke, despite the appearance of some solid college programs.
 

643cade

Registered User
Aug 30, 2011
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I usually lurk on HF, mainly because you guys scare me sometimes (haha), but felt compelled to post. I'm also not sure how a Colorado oriented post turned into a Ohio/Indiana/Midwest post, but I digress...

First, Colorado hockey is successful, and there is plenty of interest in the sport, and it is NOT new to the state, no matter what some say (Leadville Maroons and Whites, 1901). I find it rather disingenuous to compare an NHL team and their attendance/on-ice product to interest in the sport around the state.

The Denver metro area alone (Not counting Boulder, Fort Collins, or Colorado Springs) has at least thirty indoor rinks, while there are also several outdoor roller rinks (and I believe a few outdoor ice ones as well during the winter). Colorado also has a thirty team high school hockey association, that is divided into two conferences, the Peak and Foothills, and both boys and girls can compete. The Colorado High School Hockey State Championship will be held this weekend at Magness Arena. There are also numerous indoor and outdoor rinks across the state, both on the front range outside of Denver, and in the mountains and Western Slope. For example, Gunnison has an NHL sized rink that is utilized quite often and used by an ACHA team. I've been to numerous tiny towns across the Colorado Rockies that have outdoor and indoor hockey rinks. Not only that, the state has numerous rec leagues, both youth and adult, men and women.

The majority of these are, yes, in the Front Range, but people seem to forget that while Colorado has five million people within the state boundaries, at least 3.5 million of that are in the Denver/Boulder area alone. At least 4 million are in the entire Colorado Front Range area, while that other million is spread east on the plains, and west into the Rockies and Western Slope. Just two weeks ago, the Pabst Colorado Pond Hockey Tournament was held in the mountains, in Silverthorne, Colorado, where non-professional teams came from across the state to play on frozen ponds. Every winter, "pond" hockey is also played on Evergreen and Georgetown lakes and has a pretty decent turnout, and that's just near the Front Range, I'm sure there are plenty more. And if anyone says it's impossible to keep an outdoor rink in Denver, I defer you to Adam Foote who kept one in his backyard for years (and probably still does) as his kids grew.

When it comes to college, not only do we have the nationally recognized DU Pioneers (established 1949) who have a huge following, and the Colorado College Tigers (established 1938, first playing in the Pikes Peak Hockey League), but there is also the University of Northern Colorado, Colorado State University, University of Colorado, Colorado School of Mines, Western State College, Metropolitan State College of Denver and Colorado Mesa University. The rest aren't as "big" as the Pioneers or Tigers, but they are followed closely by the communities they are in. Several of those colleges also have women's teams, like CU and WSC. So that's just rec leagues, youth leagues, high school hockey, and college. As for junior, there are the Jr. Denver Pioneers and the Boulder Bison (I'm pretty sure Co Springs has one as well, but I can't remember). We also have the ECHL Eagles who play to a sold out crowd up in Loveland.

Okay, so what about semi-pro/professional?

The Denver Falcons (1950-1951) of the USHL were the first professional ice hockey team in Colorado. A car crash not only took the life of one of the players, but also injured another. They played at DU. Then there was the 34 day team, the IHL Denver Mavericks in 1959. I won't go into that. Next up, the Denver Invaders (1963-1964) in the WHL. They were the farm club for the Toronto Maple Leafs, if you can believe it. They played at the Denver Coliseum. They ended up moving to Victoria. Up next, the team that stayed the longest in Denver up to that point - the Denver Spurs, who began in the Western Hockey League in 1968-1969, and who, in the 71-72 season, brought home the first "professional" championship to the city of Denver and the state of Colorado. In 1974, they transferred to the Central Hockey League after the WHL folded, and after the 74-75 season, they were moved to the WHA after their owner, who had been granted a NHL "conditional" team and that later fell through, decided to. December 30th, 1975, was the last game the Spurs ever played in Colorado. There were rumors abound that the NHL was finally going to put a NHL team in Denver, thanks in large part to the Spurs' owner going after such a team (the Golden Seals). After more than seven years in Denver, the Spurs moved to Ottawa in January of '76 and became the Civics (and ultimately folded later that January).

And so began the Colorado Rockies era, who moved to Denver the summer after the Spurs left. Honestly, I won't go into that, but I will say that a LOT of people now just look at the Rockies moving and going "Oh well obviously Denver couldn't handle a professional hockey team". Uh, no. There were so many issues with management, ownership, and the like that makes Atlanta Spirit Group look like ANGELS. People say ASG is horrible - the real story behind the Rockies moving is even worse. I still know old time Rockies fans who are still angry about them becoming the Devils.

And now the fun part - a lot of people believe that from 1982 to 1995 Colorado didn't have a professional hockey team. Er... not quite. There were three teams - the Colorado Flames (CHL, 1982-1984, set a CO record with attendance, 15,000+), the Colorado/Denver Rangers (1987-1989), and the Denver Grizzlies. The Grizzlies were in Denver one year (1994-1995) and won the Turner Cup. I remember going to those games at Big Mac (McNichols Arena), and it was always a blast. And of course, the next year, we got a loaded team in the Nordiques. But the next time someone tries to say Denver is a "hockey wasteland", and we didn't/don't "deserve" a team - uh, no. Has the city itself had issues with supporting minor league hockey teams? Yes, it has. But the city of Denver, and especially the state of Colorado, has an extensive history with the sport itself. To suggest otherwise is not only ignorant but laughable.

As to the issues with the Avs? First, the ownership will NOT reduce prices, and a few years ago lost a ton of season ticket holders because of how they treated the fanbase. The prices of Avalanche tickets are still at 2001-2004 levels, and MANY people in the city cannot afford them due to the economy, and also because... who wants to pay up to $50 for a nosebleed seat and up to $500-600 for a glass seat? I know that's "cheap" compared to Canada, but here it's just not doable. Many people who go to games now have wised up and have started buying cheaper tickets from other places, offered by season ticket holders, other than buying from Tickethorse, Kroenke's official ticket site. Secondly, the Avs have had serious on-ice issues since the lockout that quite frankly demolished the team. It is only since Sherman was brought on that the "buy free agents, trade all the picks" idea has finally gone out the window. Has Sherman made questionable trades? Absolutely. But in the end, now, most Avs fans are starting to see that he is creating a team that can actually win. Last season did not help, and yet, attendance IS getting better (plus have people forgotten that the Avs have the record for longest consecutive sellout streak at 487?).

Thirdly, Kroenke is CHEAP. There's a reason why the Avs are at the cap floor. He's one of the richest owners in the sport, but what most fail to realize is that he is waiting until the next CBA to spend. Why? Once again, look at the lockout and the dismantling of the team that happened. Sherman has said that he has Kroenke's greenlight to spend but is not doing so until they see how the next CBA works out. Do I like the team being at the cap floor? No. However, Sherman has made significant strides to not only compete now, but also in the future, so I'm happy... but that brings me to the fourth point - Denver fans are notoriously fickle. This city is THE smallest city in North America that has all five major sports PLUS two professional lacrosse teams, an extremely popular college hockey team, and a college football team. Denver is sports crazy, BUT when it comes to the professional teams - you better win, or nobody but the diehards will spend money to see you (excluding the Broncos, which has seven states that claim season ticket holders).

Anyway, I know this will be TL;DR for a lot of people, but the point is you absolutely CANNOT judge Colorado by the attendance of the Colorado Avalanche. You just can't. Hockey is loved here, all over the state. Is it big like Canada or the northeast? No, probably not. But it IS popular here. And honestly, for anyone to say it isn't, probably doesn't live here, hasn't ventured very far from Denver or hasn't even looked. I started playing a year before the Grizzlies came, I play women's rec league when I can, follow the high school and college hockey teams, and my kid starts mini-mites next year. Trust me, it's popular or I wouldn't be fighting a ton of other parents for my kid to get a spot next year.
 
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squidz*

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It also ignores the facts that (shockingly to some) the majority of Minnesotans are actually descended from older German settlers, while Michigan only has isolated pockets of Finnish settlement in the UP (which is not where most of our players come from).

It's amusing you'd make the UP distinction for Michigan when it supports the point you're trying to make, but ignore the same distinction for Minnesota.

Minnesota's population as a whole is more heavily descended from German settlers, but it's not an even distribution. The German settlers largely ended up in the more heavily populated southern portion of the state. The New Ulms, Northfields, Rochesters, and Owatonnas are the German areas. Consequently, they also don't produce much, if any, of Minnesota's hockey talent. Minnesota's hockey talent comes from the Twin Cities area (heavy population) and the northern half of the state (low population but overwhelmingly Scandinavian).

Here are the Minnesota players with over 700 games played in the NHL with their birth city:

Jason Blake - Moorhead ("Northwest")
Aaron Broten - Roseau (Northwest)
Neal Broten - Roseau (Northwest)
Dave Christen - Warroad (Northwest)
Matt Cullen - Virginia (Arrowhead) [born in Virginia but grew up in Moorhead]
Bret Hedican - St. Paul (Central)
Sean Hill - Duluth (Arrowhead)
Phil Housley - St. Paul (Central)
Jim Johnson - New Hope (Central [suburb of Minneapolis])
Trent Klatt - Robbinsdale (Central [suburb])
Jamie Langenbrunner - Cloquet (Arrowhead)
Reed Larson - Minneapolis (Central)
Joel Otto - Elk River (Central)
Mark Parrish - Bloomington (Central [suburb])
Mike Ramsey - Minneapolis (Central)
 

tarheelhockey

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They count soccer in there so you can wipe your hinder with that study.

Honestly though, it's the smallest city by far that has all of the Big 4. Minneapolis is 20% larger. And that ignores that Denver has MLS and the Twin Cities doesn't.

Any way you want to cut it, Denver doesn't really have any close competition for the title of most big-league teams per capita.
 

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Honestly though, it's the smallest city by far that has all of the Big 4. Minneapolis is 20% larger. And that ignores that Denver has MLS and the Twin Cities doesn't.

Any way you want to cut it, Denver doesn't really have any close competition for the title of most big-league teams per capita.

I would wager though that this is one of the more sports crazed cities out there. We hear that argument all the time about Candian cities getting more leeway on their population numbers.

The Avs haven't helped the situation by keeping ticket prices high and a prickly public demeanor.
 

643cade

Registered User
Aug 30, 2011
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Colorado
I would wager though that this is one of the more sports crazed cities out there. We hear that argument all the time about Candian cities getting more leeway on their population numbers.

The Avs haven't helped the situation by keeping ticket prices high and a prickly public demeanor.

This is true. While there is undeniable proof that Denver is an over saturated market, those studies do not take into effect how absolutely sports-crazed the city, and region, is. What so many people fail to realize is that Denver is the largest city for roughly 500 miles in all directions and has all four major sports, plus soccer (which I'm starting to consider as the 5th major sport), as well as the two pro lacrosse teams that we have. Denver is the most isolated large metropolitan area in the entire United States, and as such draws fans from the entire Mountain West. One only has to look at the Broncos to see this. The Avalanche have season ticket holders in Wyoming (Cheyenne is only an hour and a half or so away from the metro). Fans of Denver sports teams come not only from Colorado, but western Nebraska, Wyoming, Utah, New Mexico, western Kansas, and one can even argue the very western part of the Oklahoma panhandle. Denver is the regional hub of the entire Mountain West. So yes, while it does seem that Denver is "over-saturated", it does not take into effect that Denver teams are supported in several states, not just Colorado. Plus those studies seem to ignore the more affluent parts just outside of the Denver metro area (Aspen, Evergreen, Conifer and Boulder come to mind). Now, if those studies took into account the entire Front Range... anyway.

And agreed, Hasbro, about the Avs. They haven't made it easy.
 

Mayor Bee

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Dec 29, 2008
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I know Illinois has been relatively successful in producing players and that the Wirtz thing was a factor but it still surprises me that it and Wisconsin aren't on the same level as other Great Lakes states. The total lack of interest in Ohio and Indiana (especially northern Indiana, think Fort Wayne and Gary instead of Indianapolis) also stuns me. Pennsylvania is another one where production has lagged behind what you might expect.

Considering OH's NHL history is one season of the Cleveland Barons and then the Blue Jackets, that shouldnt shock you.

OH and PA are pretty much the cradles of football in the Northern US. The list of NFL players produced in OH and Western PA is mind-blowing. That's the sport those areas are geared towards producing although Pittsburgh has made great strides in producing hockey talent the last 20 years which I'd say likely coincides with the Lemieux team Cups.

Two seasons of the Barons, but who's counting?

IceAce has a good portion of the answer correct, which is that the presence of football in Ohio is almost beyond comprehension. Most don't realize it because they're too busy slamming the state, but we're the 9th-most populated state in the country. We have over 700 high schools that play football, 8 Division 1 college teams, and more schools/universities that play college ball than anywhere else in the country. Probably half of college coaches over time have some type of ties to Ohio, from John Heisman (born in Ohio and began his coaching career here) to Lou Holtz (same) to Urban Meyer (same) and everyone in between.

Ohio's also the birthplace of professional football, in a Hupmobile dealership in Canton. The league, first known as the APFA and later the NFL, began with four Ohio-based teams and quickly grew from there. At one point in the 1920s, there were six Ohio teams active in the league. In the first five years, three different Ohio teams won the championship. Even when the Cleveland Rams packed up and moved to Los Angeles in 1946, the AAFC and the Browns created a new generation of fans running parallel with the baby boom. Since football in Ohio pre-dated the APFA/NFL, it's safe to say that Ohio's football tradition is on par with what hockey is in Ontario and Quebec.

To the first post quoted here, though, there's not a total lack of interest. Hockey is and always has been enormously popular in Northeast Ohio, but the biggest factor for that is that you can always count on extended cold snaps and lake effect snow. Skating on a frozen flooded area isn't uncommon. Central Ohio is much more mild; I've lived almost my entire life here, and I can say without question that we've probably had a white Christmas no more than 25% of the time. Our weather tends to be much more inconsistent; I can remember a very small number of years where skating on a body of water would be safe. It's rained on Christmas the same winter that it snowed on my birthday (late April).

I don't know how it looks in other areas, but we also don't have municipal rinks. No private company would take the "if you build it, they will come" mentality with something as expensive as an ice rink, so it wasn't until the popularity of the ECHL's Chill (beginning in 1991) that caused the first new rink in probably 50 years to be built. That took the local number of surfaces from 2 to 4, which grew to 6 by 1997, and on from there.
 
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Brodie

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Ohio is the 7th largest state, actually. With Michigan 8th and Georgia 9th.
 

643cade

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Colorado
I hate to whine, but if you're going to have a discussion about the Midwest and Ohio hockey, is it too much to ask for a separate thread? It's just rather irritating to see a thread about how popular hockey is in Colorado and then see about twenty posts about Ohio/Indiana/etc.
 

Lavina21

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Could somebody describe what is the winter season like in Denver? Are there lots of snow and outdoor ice rinks? The latter can no doubt promote the hockey culture in Colorado.
 

razor ray

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May 8, 2011
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Avs have a really solid young team and have Maker and a top 4 pick coming in. Now is the time to buy tickets.
 

WarriorOfGandhi

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Could somebody describe what is the winter season like in Denver? Are there lots of snow and outdoor ice rinks? The latter can no doubt promote the hockey culture in Colorado.

most moisture falls in the mountains, where a small percentage of the population lives. Other than a few snowstorms per year there's relatively little snow in the bigger cities and most snow melts in a few days because it's not uncommon to have 60 degree days smack in the middle of winter. Outdoor ice rinks exist in the largest cities but have a short run time (December-February). There are about half a dozen indoor rinks in Denver.
 

Hockeyholic

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It's a fairweather sports city (Denver specifically). Lots of transplants. Unless your team is championship caliber, you won't sellout. Broncos are the obvious exception.
 

WingsFan95

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Mar 22, 2008
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They sold out for several years if memory serves correctly. Team missed playoffs 6 times in 7 seasons. That will drive any fanbase away after 6 Final Four or better results in 7 seasons not long before the slide. Lost in 6 games in the 1st Round last year. Let's see what happens this year.

Add to that as has been said Broncos will always be #1, Nuggets doing well and even the Rockies have made a foothold.
 

BattleBorn

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Denver has never struck me as a fairweather sports city. Perhaps their newly acquired population isn't hardcore Denver fans, but there's plenty of natives still around and most of their teams have been around long enough to have generational fandom. The Rockies have consistently drawn crowds, and while the Nuggets and Avs have had some rough spots, they've also had some stretches of not so great performance.
 

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