How Come Babcock Is So Unwilling To Make Adjustments?

[diceman934]

The one adjustment he has failed to do recently are the defensive pairings. I think that's one area where there is some changes to be done to perhaps make it better but it hasn't changed in a long long time outside of Ozhiganov sitting out.

Outside of that, the lines and adjustments have been there. When you're a top 2/5 team in this league, I think you're doing something right.

See post above

 

[zeke]

Not saying I disagree really, but how much time is enough...10?20?30? games together.
Some lines start strong and tail off. Some the other way around. Colorado is a great example of not putting everything on the top line.
How long do we give the combos? There is only 82 games, which sounds alot, but you want your lines set for awhile before the playoffs start so guys are more automatic with knowing where each other are.

I dunno, but I think it's pretty clear that babs is more extreme than most in sticking with his matchups.

Matthews literally didn't play one game without Hyman for the first 2yrs of his career.

Matthews and Marner still haven't played on the same line after 3 years in the league, which is pretty bizarre when you think about it. Is there any other team in the league whose best forwards have literally never played on the same line together? for 3 years?

And it's amazing to realize that if Nylander hadn't held out, kappy would STILL likely be stuck on the 4th line. Just like Dermott is permanently stuck on the bottom pair no matter what happens, and likely won't get any type of promotion until Babcock is forced to.

 

[zeke]

why would you want your best Puck movers on the ice for only 23-25 minutes a game vs 40-45?

it's an interesting argument for sure. it might not be an upgrade.

the key would be that they should be on the ice for 26-28 minutes a game if they're together, of course.

but the point is that maybe we should just try it and see if it works or not, instead of just never trying it.

 

[nsleaf]

I dunno, but I think it's pretty clear that babs is more extreme than most in sticking with his matchups.

Matthews literally didn't play one game without Hyman for the first 2yrs of his career.

Matthews and Marner still haven't played on the same line after 3 years in the league, which is pretty bizarre when you think about it. Is there any other team in the league whose best forwards have literally never played on the same line together? for 3 years?

And it's amazing to realize that if Nylander hadn't held out, kappy would STILL likely be stuck on the 4th line. Just like Dermott is permanently stuck on the bottom pair no matter what happens, and likely won't get any type of promotion until Babcock is forced to.

Oh well, you can't expect all your fantasies come true.

 

[diceman934]

See, but a coach should be humble enough to not pretend he knows exactly the best line combinations before he even tries them out. It's all well and good to have a theory about how to best combine your players, but it's smarter for a coach to actually try out different combos on the ice and let their performance decide which ones work best.

So funny and wrong. Babcock has tried all kinds of Lind combos except to put Marner with Mathews for anything more then a period.

Putting two players who create offense for their line mates is beyond stupid. It is dumb. Shut down the one line and you win for the most part.

Hyman being hurt has changed our team more then Nylander coming back has. We have lost our best puck retrieval player along with our biggest body on the cycle.

When Hyman comes back and the lines get set we should be a lot better.

People on here thinking they know more then the coach should stop as they do not and once they admit that they can enjoy the games and possibly understand just what he is doing with the cards he has been dealt.

If people really want to conplain then Dubas should be then Dubas should be the target as we need a couple of pieces to change our lineup. A big body guy to play with Mathews and a top 4 D man so they we can move down a D man while sending s D man to the press box.

 

[RLF]

I dunno, but I think it's pretty clear that babs is more extreme than most in sticking with his matchups.

Matthews literally didn't play one game without Hyman for the first 2yrs of his career.

Matthews and Marner still haven't played on the same line after 3 years in the league, which is pretty bizarre when you think about it. Is there any other team in the league whose best forwards have literally never played on the same line together? for 3 years?

And it's amazing to realize that if Nylander hadn't held out, kappy would STILL likely be stuck on the 4th line. Just like Dermott is permanently stuck on the bottom pair no matter what happens, and likely won't get any type of promotion until Babcock is forced to.

I think that is easily fixed if he would stack lines a bit in the late stages of a game where we are behind...like Pitt with Crosby/Malkin or Chi with Kane Toews.
Personally, I like the make up of pairs(Tavares/Marner, Matthews/Nylander or Kap) with a worker. It balances out lines and makes 3 dangerous lines. That said, when the team doesn't start well, change it up and put the guys who are going that game together for a couple shifts. Or behind in the 3rd, I would like to see a little more loading up the talent. Otherwise, I am not really upset with line combos.

 

[Al14]

maybe because they're 27-13-2.

And maybe, just maybe, with some adjustments, better decisions, bench shortening etc., those 13 losses could have been down to 8 or 9.

Sure, we had a record setting points totals last year, could've been better IMHO.

 

[zeke]

I like the make up of pairs(Tavares/Marner, Matthews/Nylander or Kap) with a worker. It balances out lines and makes 3 dangerous lines.

it's fine to like that idea. it makes sense. and sometimes it's the best way to set your lines.

but every set of players is unique. you can't be wedded to your line philosophy no matter what.

I think it was Hitchcock who this summer said something to the effect of "us coaches like to pretend we know exactly the way lines should be formed, but in reality we just try different combos out and see what works".

and then there's Tortorella saying this: ""I just didn't think [Nick Foligno] and Panarin were playing that well together, and I changed the lines around," Tortorella said. "I don't sit there and say, 'This is going to be a line that's going to have the puck and possession. We try to do some different things to spark some offense. I'm happy we score three goals tonight, but I don't overthink that. I'm not going to pretend I'm smart that way. We just try different people, and we're trying to find some chemistry"

 

[Bigmarycombo]

We should go back

Hyman Matthews nylander. This line has success in the past

Marleau kadri marner. This was arguably our best line last year
Marleau and kadri are struggling right now just like last year until marner was put on that line

Johnsson Tavares kappanen JT can drive that line.i know we promised him to play with marner but they can still be on the first power play unit. I’m sure JT would have no problem with it if it means having three really good scoring lines.

Then Babcock should stop matching lines. With those three lines let the other teams have the headache for line matching

 

[1specter]

He hasn't made it out of the first round in a decade

Come on zeke, I respect you but if you're gonna say stuff like this please at least fact check. The Red Wings made the second round in 2010, 2011 and 2013. Also the Wings were a middle of the pack team from 2012-2015 (basically since Lidstrom retired), yet they took the cup winners to 7 in 2013 and cup finalists to 7 in 2015.

and philosophically speaking, I think he would have been better off spending the last 2yrs mixing and matching more to see what works best on the ice in real games, rather than pre-deciding combinations before even knowing what his young players are all about, and stubbornly sticking to them more than pretty much any other coach in the leageu sticks with their combos

Most coaches are pretty stubborn with what they believe works. I don't think he's alone in sticking to the same combinations, as I see similar complaints on numerous teams' forums. If you can actually prove that he is the worst at this then I'd like to see it.

Babcock isn't infallible, but he's an upper echelon coach for sure and I am happy he's behind the bench. Especially with the garbage we're previously had.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Robinson Stevens

Stevens is garbage.

Orr or nothing

 

[RLF]

it's fine to like that idea. it makes sense. and sometimes it's the best way to set your lines.

but every set of players is unique. you can't be wedded to your line philosophy no matter what.

I think it was Hitchcock who this summer said something to the effect of "us coaches like to pretend we know exactly the way lines should be formed, but in reality we just try different combos out and see what works".

and then there's Tortorella saying this: ""I just didn't think [Nick Foligno] and Panarin were playing that well together, and I changed the lines around," Tortorella said. "I don't sit there and say, 'This is going to be a line that's going to have the puck and possession. We try to do some different things to spark some offense. I'm happy we score three goals tonight, but I don't overthink that. I'm not going to pretend I'm smart that way. We just try different people, and we're trying to find some chemistry"

Ok, but that is if lines "aren't" working.
What lines were put together that weren't/aren't working?

I get what you're saying, but this is also a team with very young stars that could use a conscience for work ethic on each line as well.imo
The "workers" provide a bit of conscience for the young talented players. Hard to take a shift off when you have a guy busting his hump every shift with you. We are an unusual case of so much young talent together at one time. Other times this has happened, many fell short, and many of those teams had put all their young talent together. Just sayin.

 

[1specter]

Another thing about Babs, a lot of people lost their minds over him not giving a chance to fringe NHLers like Peter Holland, Seth Griffith, Frankie Corrado, Leivo (although I believe Leivo is a legit NHLer with upside), and some others, as if they knew better. When these guys went off and played for other teams, they did nothing and many of them are no longer even in the league.

 

[kb]

We should go back

Hyman Matthews nylander. This line has success in the past

Marleau kadri marner. This was arguably our best line last year
Marleau and kadri are struggling right now just like last year until marner was put on that line

Johnsson Tavares kappanen JT can drive that line.i know we promised him to play with marner but they can still be on the first power play unit. I’m sure JT would have no problem with it if it means having three really good scoring lines.

Then Babcock should stop matching lines. With those three lines let the other teams have the headache for line matching

This is exactly what I thought. I would try those lines too. The Matthews line and the Kadri line had obvious chemistry last year, and I really didn't understand the theory of breaking up what was working. The Leafs still have a ton of talent for Tavares to play with.

Or, should they wish to go a different route, reunite the short lived Johnsson - Matthews - Kapanen line. There were shifts where it looked like they were the Harlem Globetrotters just toying with their hapless opponent. Fast skating, short tape to tape passes that never stayed on the stick very long, and a lot of puck and player movement. Then the Leafs could just have Hyman - Tavares - Nylander, and Marleau - Kadri - Marner as their other lines.

 

[1specter]

The one adjustment he has failed to do recently are the defensive pairings. I think that's one area where there is some changes to be done to perhaps make it better but it hasn't changed in a long long time outside of Ozhiganov sitting out.

Outside of that, the lines and adjustments have been there. When you're a top 2/5 team in this league, I think you're doing something right.

Well, I think he's actually been decreasing Hainsey's minutes a bit in late game situations, and in terms of 5v5 ice-time, Gardiner Rielly and Zaitsev all play more than Hainsey does. Dermott also only plays 20 seconds less than Hainsey at 5v5. I think as the year goes on, if no defensive acquisition is made, then Hainsey's 5v5 usage will continue to be reduced while Dermott and others will continue to play more.

 

[Mess]

There is a well known saying that answers this thread.

"You can't make chicken salad out of chicken feathers".

I'm anxiously awaiting to see how Babcock will deploy Wayne Simmonds and Alex Pietrangelo once they arrive.

First Dubas must address the team weaknesses, and then the coach can make the appropriate adjustments needed to steer the ship forward.

 

[Peiskos]

Babcock is an old world, old school coach who is stuck in his ways.

He isn’t a new world, new school coach similar to someone such as Jon Cooper or Mike Sullivan.

As good as Babcock is I believe he is heavily overrated and I believe the Leafs would be even better with Cooper or Sullivan behind the bench.

 

[1specter]

Babcock is an old world, old school coach

Yeah that's just not accurate. Old school, old world coaches are guys like Mike Keenan and Randy Carlyle. Babs is pretty intelligent and progressive and he's been open to things like metrics instead of writing them off as some sort of hogwash like previous regimes.

 

[Peiskos]

Yeah that's just not accurate. Old school, old world coaches are guys like Mike Keenan and Randy Carlyle. Babs is pretty intelligent and progressive and he's been open to things like metrics instead of writing them off as some sort of hogwash like previous regimes.

His refusal and ability to take a very long time to mix up lines when things aren’t going well is a classic trademark of an old school coach.

 

[1specter]

His refusal and ability to take a very long time to mix up lines when things aren’t going well is a classic trademark of an old school coach.

He's literally been mixing up lines all season long, with the exception of the JT-Mitch combo which has been our best and most consistent. What have you guys been watching? If anything I think it's too much, neither Matthews or Kadri have had consistent lines because their linemates seem to change every single game.

 

[kevsh]

Instead of changing the PP groups, why not try different tactics first?

It's pretty clear that opposing teams are collapsing down low whenever the puck gets to Reilly, mainly because they know he's not shooting. They tighten up more when he passes off to Marner or Matthews. This seems like a pretty easy thing to counter.

First: Have Reilly walk in and draw a defender out to him. If they do, it opens a lane; If they don't, two Leafs move to the front of the net, he shoots.

Second: When Marner gets the puck on the right wall instead of looking for the seam (which he never gets now), move farther down, as far as the goal line while Reilly moves in. Spreads out the defenders and has them looking in more directions.

Third: Marner again with the puck on the wall. Matthews moves to the high slot, Tavares dips to the far post. This forces one of the defenders to choose. The other player is open.

Fourth ... I mean, anyone coached at any level here? With that much talent, even without a legit howitzer from the point, there's so many options. Babcock has tried about one of them (switching Marner and Matthews). Doesn't make any sense.

 

[RLF]

Instead of changing the PP groups, why not try different tactics first?

It's pretty clear that opposing teams are collapsing down low whenever the puck gets to Reilly, mainly because they know he's not shooting. They tighten up more when he passes off to Marner or Matthews. This seems like a pretty easy thing to counter.

First: Have Reilly walk in and draw a defender out to him. If they do, it opens a lane; If they don't, two Leafs move to the front of the net, he shoots.

Second: When Marner gets the puck on the right wall instead of looking for the seam (which he never gets now), move farther down, as far as the goal line while Reilly moves in. Spreads out the defenders and has them looking in more directions.

Third: Marner again with the puck on the wall. Matthews moves to the high slot, Tavares dips to the far post. This forces one of the defenders to choose. The other player is open.

Fourth ... I mean, anyone coached at any level here? With that much talent, even without a legit howitzer from the point, there's so many options. Babcock has tried about one of them (switching Marner and Matthews). Doesn't make any sense.

Some of this has to go on the players as well. I would doubt Babcock has told them to never leave their spots and just use one set up. I would be shocked if they are not allowed to be creative. They need to move around more and get the PKers moving to open lanes and they aren't doing it. He may go back to the same units very quickly, but a different look could help the PP as other teams haven't seen these combos.

 

[saffronleaf]

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- it's the Ego. Egocock's Ego needs to be tamed.

 

[1specter]

Some of this has to go on the players as well. I would doubt Babcock has told them to never leave their spots and just use one set up. I would be shocked if they are not allowed to be creative. They need to move around more and get the PKers moving to open lanes and they aren't doing it. He may go back to the same units very quickly, but a different look could help the PP as other teams haven't seen these combos.

I agree. I think with how much Matthews was scoring on the PP early in the season, him and Marner got overconfident and kept trying to set up the Matthews shot.

 

[Menzinger]

He’s stubborn - probably his biggest fault (and I say this as a fan of Babcock).

The inability or unwillingness to change up the power play (especially the 2nd unit last season) is definitely a legit criticism of the coaching staff as a whole.

I will say though that babcock is more willing to learn and adapt than some give him credit for - he dropped Matt Martin like a stone eventually.