How about Jordan Staal (vs Towes & Backstrom)

[jmelm]

With all the talk about Toews vs Backstrom, having just seen them both in the WJCs, and with Jordan Staal having played half a season in the NHL, how would your rank Staal relative to those guys, and which one would you take?

I know these guys have to develop and it's too early to tell who will be the best, but just curious to know what everyone thinks as things stand now.

Click to read more...

 

[Jaded-Fan]

This is like the Malkin vs. Ovechkin comparisons last year, hardly fair. Staal is not just playing in the NHL but fairly dominating in some ways out there. He is nearly impossible to separate from the puck, rarely makes mistakes showing a maturity far far beyond his years (is he still 18 for Christ's sake?) and is our best defensive forward aside from Crosby and that includes Malkin. Oh year, leads the league in short handed goals too. The others can be as good, or even better, but until they prove it in the NHL like he has he has a definate leg up in the comparison game. As for a forced comparison right now, there is not a player out of that draft that I would trade him for and that includes EJ. Most Pens' fans would feel the same I think.

 

[helicecopter]

This is like the Malkin vs. Ovechkin comparisons last year, hardly fair. Staal is not just playing in the NHL but fairly dominating in some ways out there. He is nearly impossible to separate from the puck, rarely makes mistakes showing a maturity far far beyond his years (is he still 18 for Christ's sake?) and is our best defensive forward aside from Crosby and that includes Malkin. Oh year, leads the league in short handed goals too. The others can be as good, or even better, but until they prove it in the NHL like he has he has a definate leg up in the comparison game.

Not sure what does a definite leg up exactly mean but..
of course being proved in NHL already is a plus for Staal but i never shared the logic that who's proved in NHL is automatically the better pick at that point in time. Is he the safer pick? yes (most of the times at least). Does that mean the better pick? Not necessarily, at all.
That logic was used thousands of times to disclaim comparisons between Kovalchuk and Ovechkin, just to make an example, along with the claim whoever would take Ovechkin over Kovalchuk while Ilya was already scoring 40 in the NHL was a fool..
yeah, fools.. ask now. Btw, now they would reply that NOW is different cause NOW Alex is proved.. so apparently no one can be free or able to see further than NHL evidence shows
Same argument one year later with Ovechkin and Malkin..
and it gets way worse when this brilliant logic gets applied to players not even on the same planet.. like, say, Jeff Carter vs Malkin, or Bergeron vs Crosby, or Steen vs Backstrom.. the "Hey, come back once your little guy will have played at least one game in the big show before professing him better.." comment will be always good and ready to surface.. despite bringing that logic to its ultimate consequence would make you take Kris Beech over Tavares today, for example..

now, anyone can fairly say that he would take the proven guy cause he doesn't feel comfortable enough by his impressions from what he has seen of that other player outside fo the NHL, but i am a little bit tired of listening this argument as automatically decisive reason or even proof of anything
(not saying you were doing that now, it's probably the wrong occasion i'm taking the time for this little rant).

Back on topic..

Staal has been a very pleasant surprise (i could only read about him leading towards the draft). An already effective player at 18 at the NHL level as you reasoned and with unexploited potential.
That said, he wouldn't be the first one i would pick out of these 3.
Call me crazy, but even if he has yet to step up on the NHL's ice Backstrom is the sure thing for me, as he looked before the draft already. He has #1 center for the next 10/15 years written all over him as far as i'm concerned, while Staal is an already effective player and a really seducing package.. that could develop into a #1 center, but as well who could not i guess.. at least in my mind.

Toews would be third on my list.

 

[Greeneye]

This is like the Malkin vs. Ovechkin comparisons last year, hardly fair. Staal is not just playing in the NHL but fairly dominating in some ways out there. He is nearly impossible to separate from the puck, rarely makes mistakes showing a maturity far far beyond his years (is he still 18 for Christ's sake?) and is our best defensive forward aside from Crosby and that includes Malkin. Oh year, leads the league in short handed goals too. The others can be as good, or even better, but until they prove it in the NHL like he has he has a definate leg up in the comparison game. As for a forced comparison right now, there is not a player out of that draft that I would trade him for and that includes EJ. Most Pens' fans would feel the same I think.

Agreed. Staal has exceeded all expectations. I don't understand the guy above me.

 

[helicecopter]

Staal has exceeded all expectations. I don't understand the guy above me.

Are these two sentences supposed to be related? If that's the case.. i don't understand either.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Are these two sentences supposed to be related? If that's the case.. i don't understand either.

Well to address your points to me. A few facts:

1. The four forwards at the top of last years draft, and for that matter all five top players, were not seen as that far apart going in. Staal was seen as the major wild card, by far the rawest and youngest but with also the highest upside potential.

2. Staal has answered those questions in spades - ie, youngest and rawest. He remains with that enormous growth potential. Remember he is still 18 and remains so for a long time.

3. Kessel went to the NHL struggled (compared to Staal definately so). Who is to say that Backstrom will not do the same? Toews? Has been ok and had a very strong WJC. That trumps what Staal has done in the NHL?

Long and short of it is that if there was a vast difference in these guys as prospects then your arguments would make some sense. But they were seen as in the same ballpark. Staal stepped up and not only fit in but excelled. Until those who were equal prospects do the same Staal is by far the more sure thing. He has done it, they have not. And NHL history is littered with the corpses of careers of prospects with sparkling resumes.

 

[SChan*]

Kessel went to the NHL struggled (compared to Staal definately so). Who is to say that Backstrom will not do the same?

Backstrom's stength is his vision and playmaking ability. Things like that cannot be taught; therefore I dont think he will struggle at all.

if Backstrom struggles in NHL you can ban me from this board.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Backstrom's stength is his vision and playmaking ability. Things like that cannot be taught; therefore I dont think he will struggle at all.

if Backstrom struggles in NHL you can ban me from this board.

Read again. I never said that he would. My sole point is that all four were within spitting distance of one another as prospects going in. Any could have gone anywhere from 2-5 and you really could not criticize the pick. For one to come in (as one of the youngest 18 year olds ever to play in the NHL no less) and to be as poised and effective as Staal is gives him for now a big leg up on the others. The NHL is littered with storied prospects who never made the jump to the NHl successfully. Staal has proven it. The ball is in the others court. I am saying no more, no less and am amazed that any would argue otherwise.

 

[SChan*]

Read again. I never said that he would. My sole point is that all four were within spitting distance of one another as prospects going in. Any could have gone anywhere from 2-5 and you really could not criticize the pick. For one to come in (as one of the youngest 18 year olds ever to play in the NHL no less) and to be as poised and effective as Staal is gives him for now a big leg up on the others. The NHL is littered with storied prospects who never made the jump to the NHl successfully. Staal has proven it. The ball is in the others court. I am saying no more, no less and am amazed that any would argue otherwise.

I agree. Staal is already proven. This thread should have been made next season instead.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I agree. Staal is already proven. This thread should have been made next season instead.

Exactly.

 

[helicecopter]

Well to address your points to me. A few facts:.

mmh..i don't know why you quoted my reply to JM47. anyway..

He remains with that enormous growth potential. Remember he is still 18 and remains so for a long time.

I thought i had agreed on that in my previous post.

3. Kessel went to the NHL struggled (compared to Staal definately so). Who is to say that Backstrom will not do the same? Toews? Has been ok and had a very strong WJC. That trumps what Staal has done in the NHL?

Are you answering to me?? i don't think so, cause i've said Toews would be 3rd for me and he is one i am really curious to see how he performs at the NHL level..

1. The four forwards at the top of last years draft, and for that matter all five top players, were not seen as that far apart going in. Staal was seen as the major wild card, by far the rawest and youngest but with also the highest upside potential.

Long and short of it is that if there was a vast difference in these guys as prospects then your arguments would make some sense.

I don't get why if most people said they were close then a great start by Staal in the NHL should make automatically me pick Staal over Backstrom.
First of all, those forwards were not all close FOR ME going into the draft.. i had Toews not even close to BAckstrom for example.
So, there could be a vast difference in my opinion!
Second, Backstrom had a great start of the season as well. He could hardly do better than Staal in the NHL without playing in the league i would say..

Until those who were equal prospects do the same Staal is by far the more sure thing.

IN YOUR OPINION. Besides, one could take the less sure thing anyway if thinking he has much more upside. It's not this case though.. as said imo Backstrom is the more sure thing.
Why? Because of how they play and how good they are imo at the moment, not because of where they play.
(Also, and again, it's not written in stone they were equal prospects before Staal stepped in the NHL)

And NHL history is littered with the corpses of careers of prospects with sparkling resumes.

Meh.. and? the NHL history is also full of:
player A entered the NHL one year later than player B from the same class..
player B had a very good rookie season..
yet player A ended up being the best of the two.

The NHL is littered with storied prospects who never made the jump to the NHl successfully. Staal has proven it. The ball is in the others court. I am saying no more, no less and am amazed that any would argue otherwise.

Then go back to my previous post and be amazed again.

Actually i will make it easier for you:
"i never shared the logic that who's proved in NHL is automatically the better pick at that point in time. Is he the safer pick? yes (most of the times at least). Does that mean the better pick? Not necessarily, at all."

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Backstrom and Kessel have potential to be better point producers than Staal. Toews may very end up as the better player, but right now Staal is the best prospect of these three.

 

[Kaizer]

Staal. Huge upside and already good with limited role.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Staal. Huge upside and already good with limited role.

If Staal is already that good the Penguins would be the dumbest mother ****ers in the world not to be playing him more than. What does he have - two assists.

 

[Kaizer]

If Staal is already that good the Penguins would be the dumbest mother ****ers in the world not to be playing him more than. What does he have - two assists.

only 2 players from your team scored more goals than Staal so far and you have to notice: He has not 7 minutes PP per game, he did it it with 10 minutes ES + 4 minutes SH. Right now he is on the pace to match Eric Staal number in his first pro season but with a lot more limited role and ice time.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

only 2 players from your team scored more goals than Staal so far and you have to notice: He has not 7 minutes PP per game, he did it it with 10 minutes ES + 4 minutes SH. Right now he is on the pace to match Eric Staal number in his first pro season but with a lot more limited role and ice time.

Again, the Penguins aren't exactly stacked offensively, why isn't Jordan getting more PP time if he's showing such wonderful offensive prowess then.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Again, the Penguins aren't exactly stacked offensively, why isn't Jordan getting more PP time if he's showing such wonderful offensive prowess then.

Because his game is far from fully developed. He's an individual effort kinda-guy right now. He's a defensive forward who gets his goals on sheer individual effort and will, not because of pretty set-ups or anything of the like. Those will come eventually...because his passing and pass reception skills are probably his rawest.


I think Backstrom is going to be an amazing player in the NHL but I felt going into the draft that Staal had the highest ceiling of any player in the draft...considering he's playing the way he is as the youngest player in the league(by a fairly wide margin) this pick is fairly easy for me.

 

[heygarebear]

This is like the Malkin vs. Ovechkin comparisons last year, hardly fair. Staal is not just playing in the NHL but fairly dominating in some ways out there. He is nearly impossible to separate from the puck, rarely makes mistakes showing a maturity far far beyond his years (is he still 18 for Christ's sake?) and is our best defensive forward aside from Crosby and that includes Malkin. Oh year, leads the league in short handed goals too. The others can be as good, or even better, but until they prove it in the NHL like he has he has a definate leg up in the comparison game. As for a forced comparison right now, there is not a player out of that draft that I would trade him for and that includes EJ. Most Pens' fans would feel the same I think.

I doubt the Blues would make that trade as well.. Staal for EJ that is.

 

[mazmin]

They're all tied for awesome in my books. I'll have to wait and see before I could choose the player I want on my team.

 

[bullsville]

I dont think that a fair comparison.Obviously,this guys will be a very good players,but this Toews and Backstrom are not playing in the NHL yet(next season?of course)and Staal are doing a good job.
I will check out this comparison next year

 

[Dr.Sens(e)]

Anyone else notice Staal is averaging the same number of goals per game with Pittsburgh, as Toews is at North Dakota? If you told me that before it happened I would have thought you were nuts. Especially when you factor in their respective ice time and power play time. It seems Staal will start to get a bit more ice time, which isn't easy when the teams top two centers are 87 and 71. As someone who didn't think he should go #1 overall, I definitely willing to eat some crow on that one (although it's still early).

That said, I think Backstrom's upside is second to none. What he is doing in the SEL can not be ignored. Think of this comparison: In 1993-94, Pat Falloon was in his third season with San Jose having scored 25 goals and almost 60 points as an NHL rookie on a pretty poor team (much like Staal) and on his way to another 20+ goal and 50+ point season. Meanwhile, Peter Forsberg was still in the SEL and was dominating. Would it have been fair to say Falloon was the better pick because he was in the NHL and Forsberg was not? It might have been a fair point, but it would have been dead wrong.

All that said, I'm also big Toews fan.

All three are indeed amongst the bluest of the blue-chip right now.

 

[bullsville]

Anyone else notice Staal is averaging the same number of goals per game with Pittsburgh, as Toews is at North Dakota? If you told me that before it happened I would have thought you were nuts. Especially when you factor in their respective ice time and power play time. It seems Staal will start to get a bit more ice time, which isn't easy when the teams top two centers are 87 and 71. As someone who didn't think he should go #1 overall, I definitely willing to eat some crow on that one (although it's still early).

That said, I think Backstrom's upside is second to none. What he is doing in the SEL can not be ignored. Think of this comparison: In 1993-94, Pat Falloon was in his third season with San Jose having scored 25 goals and almost 60 points as an NHL rookie on a pretty poor team (much like Staal) and on his way to another 20+ goal and 50+ point season. Meanwhile, Peter Forsberg was still in the SEL and was dominating. Would it have been fair to say Falloon was the better pick because he was in the NHL and Forsberg was not? It might have been a fair point, but it would have been dead wrong.

All that said, I'm also big Toews fan.

All three are indeed amongst the bluest of the blue-chip right now.

He was injuried...

 

[Boston]

IMO Staal would have eaten this tournament up if he were in it.

 

[Dr.Sens(e)]

He was injuried...

Toews has scored 4 goals in the 13 NCAA games he has played in, while Staal has scored 12 goals in the 39 NHL games he has played in. Same goals per game.

If your point is that Toews was playing injured during those 13 games with North Dakota, that is fair enough, although Staal has probably seen less minutes overall and on the powerplay.

And the stats aren't to be taken too literally - it's just an interesting develpment given Toews has generally been considered the superior goal scorer (and might yet turn out to be).

 

[Garl]

IMO Staal would have eaten this tournament up if he were in it.

So he's better than Malkin? Because Malkin hasn't eaten WJC last year.