Confirmed with Link: (Hornqvist traded to Florida for Matheson + Sceviour) Part 2

Gurglesons

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I mean, you took on Matheson and Sceviour's contracts which give you less cap space than before Horny. I could see him liking Sceviour for PK, but Pittsburgh added over 6M in cap this season. Got to think you could do better than that in free agency or buying a better cap dump...

I interpreted this trade as over-priced asset for over-priced asset

Less cap space but they are saving 600k this year in real dollars. Every move Rutherford has made this summer has been saving real cash.

The McCann contract is back loaded for next year, Bjugstad saved us real dollars, Kapanen trade gave us a RW whose largely paid off and allowed us to move out an expensive AHLer, etc.
 

violaswallet

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Apr 8, 2019
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Less cap space but they are saving 600k this year in real dollars. Every move Rutherford has made this summer has been saving real cash.
Sure, but you're still paying what 4.6M in cash if you waive and don't acquire Sceviour/Matheson, plus the balloon payments later? I would imagine, given escrow, Pittsburgh could offer a backloaded contract to a more serviceable player....Matheson's averaging 5.7M in cash until the end of contract.
 

Gurglesons

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Sure, but you're still paying what 4.6M in cash if you waive and don't acquire Sceviour/Matheson, plus the balloon payments later? I would imagine, given escrow, Pittsburgh could offer a backloaded contract to a more serviceable player....Matheson's averaging 5.7M in cash until the end of contract.

I don’t think PIT is concerned financially after this season especially considering the UFA / RFA free for all we have in two seasons from now. If they want to become a lower cap it becomes easy in two years.

As Friedman’s article pointed out. Fenton and Zito wanted Hornqvist the idea would be that PIT would simply lose him for nothing by waiving him.
 

violaswallet

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I don’t think PIT is concerned financially after this season especially considering the UFA / RFA free for all we have in two seasons from now. If they want to become a lower cap it becomes easy in two years.

As Friedman’s article pointed out. Fenton and Zito wanted Hornqvist the idea would be that PIT would simply lose him for nothing by waiving him.
Yep yep: my argument is that Matheson is negative value with his contract, so I didn't think waiving him would work. I'm a Florida fan here.

You're right that Pittsburgh must put positive value on Matheson with his contract or positive value on placing Hornqvist on a better team than say Detroit or Ottawa, if Pittsburgh traded him with waiving being a feasible option :)
 

Gurglesons

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Yep yep: my argument is that Matheson is negative value with his contract, so I didn't think waiving him would work. I'm a Florida fan here.

You're right that Pittsburgh must put positive value on Matheson with his contract or positive value on placing Hornqvist on a better team than say Detroit or Ottawa, if Pittsburgh traded him with waiving being a feasible option :)

Why wouldn't they put positive value on Matheson? His metrics last year are an improvement on anything our bottom pairing D did.

If we drop Jack Johnson somehow we've basically turned our bottom pairing into Matheson - Ruhwedel which is cheaper than what we paid JJ - Schultz, adds the offensive transition game we need from that pairing in Matheson, and gets us younger.

Matheson's term is insane, but it isn't like his contract is an absurd overpayment in terms of cap hit.
 

molon labe

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Oh, ahahahaha. I was like "Okay, 'I've Got Friends' was pretty good, but man.. talk about a mediocre career."

I'm not big on him personally - at least not anymore - but I always thought Rodeo, I've got Friends, Thunder Rolls, and Standing Outside the Fire were at least good enough where you wouldn't be racing to put your windows up at a red light if you were caught listening. He's a guy that you may even like depending on whether you're a casual country dude, Nashville synthetic/bro-country dude, rebel/outlaw country, or Kenny Chesney/Jimmy Buffet kinda country.
 

molon labe

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As a child of the 90s with country music-loving parents...this last page has been very triggering for me. Oh, Y108, my oldest enemy.

That bad huh? I mean, I rebelled as a youth and listened to some truly heinous music - but as an adult, even as a late teen- country music definitely gained some appeal.
 

Pens x

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Oct 8, 2016
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Everything will be just fine. JR acquired Daley 1,752 days ago, and that worked out marvelously back then, so that means trading for dman in 2020 will work the same way.
 

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Everything will be just fine. JR acquired Daley 1,752 days ago, and that worked out marvelously back then, so that means trading for dman in 2020 will work the same way.

Dare I say that given history, we have a better chance of it working out then not.

How many projects have we obtained and how many have not worked out? The pros are outweighing the cons.
 

Gurglesons

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Everything will be just fine. JR acquired Daley 1,752 days ago, and that worked out marvelously back then, so that means trading for dman in 2020 will work the same way.

Or you know. Sticking with Hornqvist in a third line role and as a PP specialist when it's failed in spectacular fashion the last two post seasons would suddenly work great!
 

HandshakeLine

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Nov 9, 2005
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I mean... if we are going to paint this trade as a case of looking back too much into the past and what worked then and not necessarily now, uh... you know you could make the same argument for Hornqvist?

Or, in some sense, there's something to be said for a comparison to the cautionary tale of Rascal "Pascal" Dupuis-- a guy who was a battler, who kept trying to come back long after he was at his most effective, and ended up being forced to retire by his doctors (not the team or coaching staff) after he nearly ended up killing himself to play.

At some point, you have to let these guys go, even if they're unique, or they have heart, or they're leaders. The only ones who have the luxury of not having to go through with this would be Crosby and Malkin, and largely because I can see both of them getting out when they feel they're no longer able to compete instead of trying to will themselves into the lineup one more time.

What was the key Ray Shero era mistake? Holding on to guys on the bench and on the ice too long. The JR era mistake seems to be the opposite-- too many trades, too many flash signings, too much overcorrection. But I don't really think you'd find a GM to take over that wouldn't fall into one of those two categories.
 

Rakell67

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Or, in some sense, there's something to be said for a comparison to the cautionary tale of Rascal "Pascal" Dupuis-- a guy who was a battler, who kept trying to come back long after he was at his most effective, and ended up being forced to retire by his doctors (not the team or coaching staff) after he nearly ended up killing himself to play.

At some point, you have to let these guys go, even if they're unique, or they have heart, or they're leaders. The only ones who have the luxury of not having to go through with this would be Crosby and Malkin, and largely because I can see both of them getting out when they feel they're no longer able to compete instead of trying to will themselves into the lineup one more time.

What was the key Ray Shero era mistake? Holding on to guys on the bench and on the ice too long. The JR era mistake seems to be the opposite-- too many trades, too many flash signings, too much overcorrection. But I don't really think you'd find a GM to take over that wouldn't fall into one of those two categories.
Dupuis and Hornqvist are great stories. But they pale in comparison to the story of the great Marian Hossa, who battled skin rashes to play alongside the greatest hockey player ever, Captain Intangibles Toews.
 

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Horny getting moved was inevitable with how his usage was. Hard to justify it when the coach uses you that way and the cap hit.

I am pretty sure most of the anger is the fact that JJ wasn't already dumped before that move and still hasn't.

Mutually exclusive roster decisions.

Dupuis and Hornqvist are great stories. But they pale in comparison to the story of the great Marian Hossa, who battled skin rashes to play alongside the greatest hockey player ever, Captain Intangibles Toews.

I think the storyline of 2016 was one of my favorite Penguins memories. We talk about Hagelin, Daley, Sullivan, Schultz...but people tend to forget that Dupuis also retired in...Dec of 2015? That really opened the door for some of the younger guys. Given Dupuis performance and who we were able to bring in, I put Dupuis retiring as important as any of the other things that happen in that magical year.
 

EightyOne

My posts are jokes. And hockey is just a game.
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I am just asking that we rise up and help JR stop f***ing up. If they are that concerned about real dollars, we can do our part! Any bit helps.
 
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HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
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Dupuis and Hornqvist are great stories. But they pale in comparison to the story of the great Marian Hossa, who battled skin rashes to play alongside the greatest hockey player ever, Captain Intangibles Toews.

TBF, I've heard lots of shit talking of Hossa in Slovakia over the years for passing up a chance to be a part of the Pens' dynasty. :laugh:
 

molon labe

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I am just asking that we rise up and help JR stop f***ing up. If they are that concerned about real dollars, we can do our part! Any bit helps.

Zero chance I'd give a cent to help JR waste it on some stupid contract...and I'm often generous with money.

Now, if they fired JR and the incumbent GM needed help- maybe then we could talk. End of the day if the owners are that concerned about playoff revenue (...and they are) - they should stop paying such a loaf to run this team into first round exits. I seriously question anyone who thinks this roster is on pace to get out of the first round in 2021. I'm not doubting they make the playoffs - because Sid/Geno - but I absolutely doubt they go anywhere once things tighten up and our team is built for speed, tenacity, and actual goal scoring depth we just don't have. This also applies to a coach insisting that system is our only option.
 

Andy99

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HFPens Help GMJR GoFundMe

I am just asking that we rise up and help JR stop f***ing up. If they are that concerned about real dollars, we can do our part! Any bit helps.

I’m on board if the Go Fund Me is for the team to buyout JJ’s contract...that’s it though
 
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SEALBound

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What was the key Ray Shero era mistake? Holding on to guys on the bench and on the ice too long. The JR era mistake seems to be the opposite-- too many trades, too many flash signings, too much overcorrection. But I don't really think you'd find a GM to take over that wouldn't fall into one of those two categories.

One of the more curious things about Shero to me was, he gets fired from the Penguins for a lack of success. He had MAF who shat the bed, so he focused on making sure we had a good backup. There were always "concerns" about the defense, so using his Nashville model, he always focused on ensuring we had dmen. The thing was though, when you really break down a lot of the playoff loses, while there were certainly times to a 100% blame MAF, you could always go back to a lack of secondary/support scoring. It was Sid, Geno...and some rascals. Eventually, teams honed in on the fact that if you double/triple team Sid or Geno, your goalie just has to be slightly better than Pascal Dupuis, Steve Sullivan, Tyler Kennedy, Matt Cooke...to name a few. While he did get Kunitz, Sid's RW was a hole for a long time. Kunitz and Dupuis were merely passengers. Neal was good with Geno but wasn't that playoff game breaker. The signs that the team lacked playoff scoring for several years were the most blatant yet ignored signs I've ever seen. Watching them lose, then reading comments like "dat durn dafense is awful! Pens need D!" it had me questioning my own sanity as they put up 0, 1, maybe 2 goals. Shero always indicated that Sid and Geno had to make due with less because, cap n all. Then, every year, he picks the most vanilla UFA to be and wastes picks and prospects on them. Outside of Hossa...I really don't know if there were any UFA trades Shero made that had an actual positive impact. Seriously...think of one? Good reason by he was shown the door.

Dude gets hired by NJ and immediately trades for Kyle Palmieri for a 2nd and a 3rd I believe.

f***in a Shero...
 
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EightyOne

My posts are jokes. And hockey is just a game.
Nov 23, 2016
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Zero chance I'd give a cent to help JR waste it on some stupid contract...and I'm often generous with money.

Now, if they fired JR and the incumbent GM needed help- maybe then we could talk. End of the day if the owners are that concerned about playoff revenue (...and they are) - they should stop paying such a loaf to run this team into first round exits. I seriously question anyone who thinks this roster is on pace to get out of the first round in 2021. I'm not doubting they make the playoffs - because Sid/Geno - but I absolutely doubt they go anywhere once things tighten up and our team is built for speed, tenacity, and actual goal scoring depth we just don't have. This also applies to a coach insisting that system is our only option.

We aren't giving him money to spend on more bad contacts. We're crowdfunding buyouts to get rid of the Bjugstads and JMFJ without LITERALLY throwing away on Cap or assets and trying to justify those stupid decisions as "real money saved."

f***in here's the $1mil...now cut JJ..boom..done

...Although, yes, he might then use the cap space we create badly...
 

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