Holland has to go

[HTT3*]

i'd be more in line with that type of thinking if he actually played prospects when they were ready instead of stubbornly leaving guys like Cleary in the lineup so guys like Tatar can rot in the AHL despite already being better

Tatar is overrated. He hasn't done much in the AHL since Nyquist has been called up. There's a reason why Nyquist is playing and Tatar is not. I think brass sees Tatar as a player they would like to trade for the right piece, I doubt he plays many games in Detroit. I think Holland was shopping Tatar before trade deadline, but according to reports, Holland said other GMs didn't see the same kind of value in the player and therefore a deal couldn't be worked out. Is the player in question Tatar? I think so.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Tatar is overrated. He hasn't done much in the AHL since Nyquist has been called up. There's a reason why Nyquist is playing and Tatar is not. I think brass sees Tatar as a player they would like to trade for the right piece, I doubt he plays many games in Detroit. I think Holland was shopping Tatar before trade deadline, but according to reports, Holland said other GMs didn't see the same kind of value in the player and therefore a deal couldn't be worked out. Is the player in question Tatar? I think so.

or the "filppula has no more value then a late 2nd rounder" which is the common belief among hf board posters to explain why we didnt or shouldnt trade him

 

[Xvash2]

Tatar is overrated. He hasn't done much in the AHL since Nyquist has been called up. There's a reason why Nyquist is playing and Tatar is not. I think brass sees Tatar as a player they would like to trade for the right piece, I doubt he plays many games in Detroit. I think Holland was shopping Tatar before trade deadline, but according to reports, Holland said other GMs didn't see the same kind of value in the player and therefore a deal couldn't be worked out. Is the player in question Tatar? I think so.

Odd, since statistically Tatar was one of the best players while he was with the Wings.

Maybe he just has too much emotion and passion for the likes of Babcock and Holland. I mean, when was the last time you saw someone out there on the ice who really wanted to score a goal?

 

[HTT3*]

Odd, since statistically Tatar was one of the best players while he was with the Wings.

Maybe he just has too much emotion and passion for the likes of Babcock and Holland. I mean, when was the last time you saw someone out there on the ice who really wanted to score a goal?

Tatar looked okay to me when he played, but didn't look like a game changer by any means. I think Nyquist has looked better.

Right now, Tatar isn't playing on that level in the AHL. I wonder if it's because he doesn't have Nyquist creating space and feeding him the puck?

 

[PullHard]

Tatar looked okay to me when he played, but didn't look like a game changer by any means. I think Nyquist has looked better.

Right now, Tatar isn't playing on that level in the AHL. I wonder if it's because he doesn't have Nyquist creating space and feeding him the puck?

Yes? Why is it wrong to assume Tatar wouldn't be producing as well without as talented linemates? Doesn't that make sense?

 

[HTT3*]

Yes? Why is it wrong to assume Tatar wouldn't be producing as well without as talented linemates? Doesn't that make sense?

I was under the assumption Calle Jarnkrok possessed some talent? Griffins are slumping and having trouble scoring goals. I wonder if Nyquist was the engine that made that team fire like beast. Just confirms why Nyquist is playing on the DRWs over Tatar.

 

[PullHard]

I was under the assumption Calle Jarnkrok possessed some talent? Griffins are slumping and having trouble scoring goals. I wonder if Nyquist was the engine that made that team fire like beast. Just confirms why Nyquist is playing on the DRWs over Tatar.

Agreed ... ?

Not sure where you're going with this, other than attempt to put Tatar down, and justify why he should be gone in your mind.

Jarnkrok is good, and will hopefully be very good,

but he isn't as good as Nyquist on NA sized ice yet,

so of course Tatar isn't going to be scoring as much as he would've been with Nyquist.

Isn't this obvious?

 

[HTT3*]

Agreed ... ?

Not sure where you're going with this, other than attempt to put Tatar down, and justify why he should be gone in your mind.

Jarnkrok is good, and will hopefully be very good,

but he isn't as good as Nyquist on NA sized ice yet,

so of course Tatar isn't going to be scoring as much as he would've been with Nyquist.

Isn't this obvious?

I guess the point is Nyquist is a more important player and is a bigger impact. Look at how well the Griffins played back in February and March when Tatar was in the NHL. Nyquist was a big part of their continued success. Since Nyquist has been in the NHL, Tatar has struggled.. and so have the Griffins.

Tatar is redundant and expandable.

 

[PullHard]

I guess the point is Nyquist is a more important player and is a bigger impact. Look at how well the Griffins played back in February and March when Tatar was in the NHL. Nyquist was a big part of their continued success. Since Nyquist has been in the NHL, Tatar has struggled.. and so have the Griffins.

Tatar is redundant and expandable.

To the teams who don't employ the likes of Dan Cleary, Drew Miller, Patrick Eaves, amongst others, he may be expendable, but how can you even argue he didn't impact our team? He was one of the most productive players (vs time on ice) we had...

I'm honestly lost right now.

This isn't Tatar vs. Nyquist.

This is: Tatar and Nyquist should've been on the Wings from day one of this season.

I'm not picking sides or anything, anyone who has even bothered to follow Detroit even the slightest bit over the last few years knows that Nyquist was supposed to have a higher ceiling than Tatar.

What are you arguing? (don't stop though, I like conversing with you. Wish others would post more .)

 

[HTT3*]

To the teams who don't employ the likes of Dan Cleary, Drew Miller, Patrick Eaves, amongst others, he may be expendable, but how can you even argue he didn't impact our team? He was one of the most productive players (vs time on ice) we had...

I'm honestly lost right now.

This isn't Tatar vs. Nyquist.

This is: Tatar and Nyquist should've been on the Wings from day one of this season.

I'm not picking sides or anything, anyone who has even bothered to follow Detroit even the slightest bit over the last few years knows that Nyquist was supposed to have a higher ceiling than Tatar.

What are you arguing? (don't stop though, I like conversing with you. Wish others would post more .)

The point was based on Hollands comment that he tried to make some trades before deadline. I think it was apparent that Holland called up Tatar to showcase him. After deadline he says during an interview that other GMs didn't see the value (paraphrased) in the prospect he was trying to trade, which I am assuming it was Tatar. Then Holland send Tatar down, calls up Nyquist. Tatar and the griffins suddenly slump, while Nyquist has been playing well in the NHL.

To me, the Tatar vs Nyquist is simply about a trade. Apparently Holland was looking to improve the roster at trade deadline, Tatar must have been the trade bait nobody else wanted.

Eaves and Miller have been fine. Cleary has been brutal, but I think they are trying to get him going. I think once he starts to click, he will be important in the playoffs (assuming if we make it, and I think we will).

The biggest problem with this team isn't Tatar in the AHL, it is the fact that we are missing Helm, Bertuzzi and even Samulesson (right handed sniper), and lets not forget Fillpulla's injury either, I think it is messing with his production. Tatar isn't the savior... neither is Nyquist, but he is the better player of the two.

 

[PullHard]

The point was based on Hollands comment that he tried to make some trades before deadline. I think it was apparent that Holland called up Tatar to showcase him. After deadline he says during an interview that other GMs didn't see the value (paraphrased) in the prospect he was trying to trade, which I am assuming it was Tatar. Then Holland send Tatar down, calls up Nyquist. Tatar and the griffins suddenly slump, while Nyquist has been playing well in the NHL.

To me, the Tatar vs Nyquist is simply about a trade. Apparently Holland was looking to improve the roster at trade deadline, Tatar must have been the trade bait nobody else wanted.

Eaves and Miller have been fine. Cleary has been brutal, but I think they are trying to get him going. I think once he starts to click, he will be important in the playoffs (assuming if we make it, and I think we will).

The biggest problem with this team isn't Tatar in the AHL, it is the fact that we are missing Helm, Bertuzzi and even Samulesson (right handed sniper), and lets not forget Fillpulla's injury either, I think it is messing with his production. Tatar isn't the savior... neither is Nyquist, but he is the better player of the two.

I agree with the reading between the lines about trading Tatar, seems like the most obvious thing to assume based on what we know/ have heard. Agree that Nyquist is likely the better player at this very second (though I think Tatar is better at certain things - namely bottom 6 forward qualities, vs Nyquist being more creative offensively/ more talented).

And please don't tell me you actually don't think Tatar would've been more useful than Samuelsson or Eaves? Come onnnnnn.

It is becoming clearer all the time that Andersson, Nyquist and Tatar should've been our 3rd line this year (when injuries ate us alive). They have a precedent of chemistry, were ripping up the AHL, etc. Andy and Nyquist still find each other on the ice pretty often, Tatar and Andy did the same thing several times back when Tatar was up.

Oh well.

 

[HTT3*]

I agree with the reading between the lines about trading Tatar, seems like the most obvious thing to assume based on what we know/ have heard. Agree that Nyquist is likely the better player at this very second (though I think Tatar is better at certain things - namely bottom 6 forward qualities, vs Nyquist being more creative offensively/ more talented).

And please don't tell me you actually don't think Tatar would've been more useful than Samuelsson or Eaves? Come onnnnnn.

It is becoming clearer all the time that Andersson, Nyquist and Tatar should've been our 3rd line this year (when injuries ate us alive). They have a precedent of chemistry, were ripping up the AHL, etc. Andy and Nyquist still find each other on the ice pretty often, Tatar and Andy did the same thing several times back when Tatar was up.

Oh well.

Holland can't call up Tatar right now if he wanted to, he is stuck in the AHL baring injuries.

 

[Flowah]

Tatar is overrated. He hasn't done much in the AHL since Nyquist has been called up. There's a reason why Nyquist is playing and Tatar is not. I think brass sees Tatar as a player they would like to trade for the right piece, I doubt he plays many games in Detroit. I think Holland was shopping Tatar before trade deadline, but according to reports, Holland said other GMs didn't see the same kind of value in the player and therefore a deal couldn't be worked out. Is the player in question Tatar? I think so.

1. An equally reasonable explanation for Tatar's production since being sent back is that he's tired of the game they're playing with him. "Earn it" they told him. He earned it. He was sent back down anyway. He watches the Wings games, he sees a bunch of players not doing jack and they're still up. He paid his dues. He spent years in the AHL, never complaining, working hard, doing what they told him. When he got his chance he took it. But they sent him back anyway. Yeah, after a few years of being jerked around like that I'd be upset too.

2. You assume that the player they were disagreeing on was Tatar. I've never seen anything beyond "we disagreed on this prospect's value." That's a huge huge huge assumption based on a very unspecific quote.

 

[PullHard]

1. An equally reasonable explanation for Tatar's production since being sent back is that he's tired of the game they're playing with him. "Earn it" they told him. He earned it. He was sent back down anyway. He watches the Wings games, he sees a bunch of players not doing jack and they're still up. He paid his dues. He spent years in the AHL, never complaining, working hard, doing what they told him. When he got his chance he took it. But they sent him back anyway. Yeah, after a few years of being jerked around like that I'd be upset too.

2. You assume that the player they were disagreeing on was Tatar. I've never seen anything beyond "we disagreed on this prospect's value." That's a huge huge huge assumption based on a very unspecific quote.

In regards to point #1, as Bob pointed out recently, all Tatar has to do is take a look around the room and see Mursak, a guy who has been working for years to make this team, and yet is sent down and exposed to waivers. Not exactly a thrilling thing to see if you're in Tatar's shoes.

 

[HTT3*]

1. An equally reasonable explanation for Tatar's production since being sent back is that he's tired of the game they're playing with him. "Earn it" they told him. He earned it. He was sent back down anyway. He watches the Wings games, he sees a bunch of players not doing jack and they're still up. He paid his dues. He spent years in the AHL, never complaining, working hard, doing what they told him. When he got his chance he took it. But they sent him back anyway. Yeah, after a few years of being jerked around like that I'd be upset too.

That's the same excuse fans made for Brendan Smith... didn't seem to be the case at all, Smith is just bad. If Tatar isn't a team player, then why should he be on the roster? He's 22 years old, why should he have authority on who Babcock and Holland chose to play? Maybe he didn't earn it to their expectations? He certainly didn't look that special to me when he was called up...

2. You assume that the player they were disagreeing on was Tatar. I've never seen anything beyond "we disagreed on this prospect's value." That's a huge huge huge assumption based on a very unspecific quote.

It looked pretty clear to me and to many other folks on the forum that Tatar was being showcased. It was talked about a lot on the forums... may even be a thread on it. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

 

[r7carlson24]

I agree that Holland needs to step it up and try to make the moves to get us back to a contender, even if that means overpaying a little bit. I still think he will get, and deserves, a few more years. Babcock will be let go before they make a GM change. I also think if they finally do make a GM change Holland will not be fired, they will let him save face and he will resign.

This is kind of an apples to oranges comparison, but look at what Holland has accomplished compared to Joe Dumars and Joe D is still hanging around. Ken Holland hasn't even missed the playoffs. It's certainly ridiculous to fire him if the Wings are an 8 seed or barely miss the playoffs in a shortened season.

 

[PullHard]

Holland can't call up Tatar right now if he wanted to, he is stuck in the AHL baring injuries.

I know, I'm not advocating it right now, I am saying he (and Nyquist) should have been here from the start, and definitely should have stayed once a bunch of our forwards went down with season ending injuries.

 

[BinCookin]

Well, I started watching hockey back in 1982... I was 6 years old. So yeah, guess I am kinda young. I'm a year older than Maxim Kuznetsov (if you don't know who he is, ask L.A. )

As for Holland, he's kept a clear and concise plan of action since lockout... that is to stockpile picks and develop quality players. Since that day in 2006 ( I think it was 2006 ) Holland vowed that draft picks and prospects are "gold" in the Nu:NHL, he only traded one pick for a roster player left by Brad Stuart, Nick Lidstrom and for playoff depth in one of the worst draft years we've seen in years. Lets forget about the unforeseen health issue of Jiri Fischer who would likely be our #1 dman right now, and who knows what would of happen last year if Rafalski wasn't forced into early retirement for blowing out his knees.

I think it is clear to anyone with a basic business sense what Holland is trying to juggle; from salary cap, picks, prospects to unforeseen obstacles that creep up on you. With all the injuries this team has faced the past 3 years, it only makes sense for Holland to sign a bunch of veteran depth that know the system to help the transition, allowing for depth call up on prospects as needed. Throwing a ton of rookies and sophomores on a team and expecting them to progress is absurd. We've seen over and over again how that fails... look no further than the almighty Oilers.

People are stomping there feet and demanding something, but don't even know what they want. They either want the Stanley Cup or they want Seth Jones with the #1 pick, there is no happy medium.

The bottom line is nobody on this forum has enough hockey knowledge in their entire family bloodline compared to Ken Hollands pinky nail. People love looking at the past on the internet and watching YouTube video's while sitting on their cozy couch, drinking a beer, eating some Doritos.. and critizing Holland for "mistakes" he made for not anticipating Jiri Fischer going down with a rare heart condition. Or Ralfi blowing out their knees...

Then they will cry that Holland could have acquired "X" FA player and paid him $75 million without knowing what the Salary Cap will be. They just want Holland to throw business out the window and expect him to make his own rules, have his own 3D glasses that allows him to predict the future, and win the cups every single year. Anything less is failure.

I remember the 1980s, I will take this hiccup any day of the week over the 1980s. Wings of 2013 employ some of the best hockey minds in the world, have one of the most committed owners in the NHL, have had some wonderful drafting luck.... which appears to not be luck, but superb drafting. And best of all, we have a hockey team to cheer for.

You can do one of two things, you can sit on your couch, read 2009 hockey news and look at what teams did and compare that to why Holland didn't trade four 1st round picks for "X" player, or you can cheer for your team, enjoy the fight to the playoffs, enjoy watching the young guns play, enjoy the best draft we've seen in 10 years and enjoy hockey on HD TV!

I choose the latter. How about you?

enjoyable post, well said.

 

[Run the Jewels]

As someone who has no problem being critical of Ken Holland I don't think I could say "he has to go" on a message board. And that's even ignoring the fact that calling for something along these lines on a message board is roughly as effective as pissing directly into a gale force wind.

I am fully down with criticizing individual Ken Holland decisions because that's precisely what this silly message board is here for. We clearly spend far too much time following the team and if you are into that sort of thing then by all means come on over and opinionate away. Play on, playa.

Would I like to see Ken Holland get the ceremonial ascension into meaningless figurehead role? HELLZ YES. But I don't ever think that because I so want to see it happen that has any relevance whatsoever.

 

[Flowah]

That's the same excuse fans made for Brendan Smith... didn't seem to be the case at all, Smith is just bad. If Tatar isn't a team player, then why should he be on the roster? He's 22 years old, why should he have authority on who Babcock and Holland chose to play? Maybe he didn't earn it to their expectations? He certainly didn't look that special to me when he was called up...

Frankly, if you think "Smith is just bad" and Tatar "didn't earn it" then I:

1. Have no idea what games you're watching.
2. Have no way of getting through to you.

Furthermore, I imagine that you are in the tiniest of tiny minorities in your opinions there. Most people here do think Tatar earned it. At least over the likes of Eaves, Miller, Cleary. Smith is "just bad" in the same way Ericsson and Kindl were "just bad" while they were still acclimating to the NHL. The talent is obviously there.

And yeah, if you've played for years in the AHL, doing everything they told you, working hard, scoring goals, leading the league in points, then you come up for a good chunk and work your ass off and earn it (in most fans eyes, can't speak for outliers like you.) and they send you down again?

He would rightfully feel betrayed. Especially after being told "Earn a spot" and doing just that for 3+ years.

Imagine being told by your boss that you'd be promoted if you put in the time and put up the numbers at your job. You do it all. You outdo all your co-workers. You don't grumble or complain. For three years this continues. Then he tells you you're not promoted, you'll be staying there for another year. You'd be pissed. You'd be right to be pissed. Is Tatar pissed? I hope so. This kind of jerking around is not the right way to treat players. If we're going to value aging and tired vets over young talent, then don't tell the kids they can earn a spot. Just be up front. "Look, if there are injuries we'll call you up, but we're going to keep the older guys in when we can." Just be honest.

 

[JackieTreehorn]

here is another Pistons analogy. Holland has turned the Wings into the Bad Boys Pistons after Chicago had passed them. No direction, No chance to contend and no threat to the real contender.

In Ken I trust to drive this bus into the ditch and have a vocal majority of fans blame his successor for the state of the franchise.

 

[GT500x]

I am giving Holland this summer to trim the fat on this team and show a real "commitment to youth." If he sticks to his old ways then I'll be marching downtown with my "fire Holland" sign. He's been mediocre in the cap era, especially in this transitional period which began in 2009. That's my opinion. I'm sticking to it. Don't flame me.

 

[Goalie guy]

I was under the assumption Calle Jarnkrok possessed some talent? Griffins are slumping and having trouble scoring goals. I wonder if Nyquist was the engine that made that team fire like beast. Just confirms why Nyquist is playing on the DRWs over Tatar.

So then as a GM would it not make since to bring the rest of the best line in the ahl up? put down your old dogs, and Tatar,Anderson,Nyquist on a line in the bigs and see what they can do? seeing as how this team can not score unless they are playing the Nucks?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

So then as a GM would it not make since to bring the rest of the best line in the ahl up? put down your old dogs, and Tatar,Anderson,Nyquist on a line in the bigs and see what they can do? seeing as how this team can not score unless they are playing the Nucks?

I know a lot of people around here don't care but making the playoffs in Grand Rapids was probably a little bigger deal then they let on. It might frustrate some, but it isn't completely unimportant to the Wings, especially since last year was really the first time nobody got extra time and they had far too much off time with the Wings not being able to practice them for a month. Go ahead and hate that but understand they care somewhat about that level also and with the contracts already out, they felt it important to keep one of the big two down. It is painful but realize without it making a huge difference on the team here and a big difference there it was probably considered.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Tatar looked okay to me when he played, but didn't look like a game changer by any means. I think Nyquist has looked better.

Right now, Tatar isn't playing on that level in the AHL. I wonder if it's because he doesn't have Nyquist creating space and feeding him the puck?

Tatar's even strength production (by the minute) is EASILY second on the team.