Holland Finally Admits Wings are Rebuilding

[Claypool]

He was hoping Zetterberg would be there this fall, and he signed Vanek and Green not to cushion the load for the kids, but to keep trying to push this club back to the playoffs.

You think Holland thought Zetterberg was going to play despite not practicing through most of the season and not even skating during the summer leading up to July 1? You're taking crazy pills.

 

[lilidk]

He also said about smooth transition for kids ,not rush them, positive locker room . I don't think we like to become oilers2.0 or Avs . Last year he went after leadership , this year skills. Man knows what he is doing

 

[Winger98]

With all due respect... this is idiotic.

You (and some others) want this Prospect Team game playing in the NHL full time?... having all their confidence destroyed? You will destroy your prospects this way. Imagine putting Berrgren in the NHL on the 2nd line right now playing 16 min a night...

He will be injured or mentally destroyed in 2 months.

I'm sorry but SOMEONE has to actually teach Cholowski/Hronek some stuff. And yes, a less skilled player CAN teach them something...

Some of you are extremists... and more so... your comments do not have a lot of thought behind them.

Not signing Vanek translates to instantly promoting Berrgren?

 

[Winger98]

You think Holland thought Zetterberg was going to play despite not practicing through most of the season and not even skating during the summer leading up to July 1? You're taking crazy pills.

I think Holland definitely hoped Z could make it back. Who wouldn't?

 

[Claypool]

I think Holland definitely hoped Z could make it back. Who wouldn't?

The numerous quotes from him during the summer talking about how he doesn't know if Zetterberg is playing or not?

 

[Winger98]

The numerous quotes from him during the summer talking about how he doesn't know if Zetterberg is playing or not?

Which pretty much fits the definition of hope rather than certainty.

verb

1. 1.
   want something to happen or be the case.
   "he's hoping for an offer of compensation"

or "he was hoping Zetterberg could play."

 

[RedWingzz]

With all due respect... this is idiotic.

You (and some others) want this Prospect Team game playing in the NHL full time?... having all their confidence destroyed? You will destroy your prospects this way. Imagine putting Berrgren in the NHL on the 2nd line right now playing 16 min a night...

He will be injured or mentally destroyed in 2 months.

I'm sorry but SOMEONE has to actually teach Cholowski/Hronek some stuff. And yes, a less skilled player CAN teach them something...

Some of you are extremists... and more so... your comments do not have a lot of thought behind them.

Lol way to take my comments way out of proportion. In no universe do I think Berrgren is anywhere near NHL ready. No I don't want Veleno on the team yet either. How exactly does not wanting Green and Vanek around equate in me wanting them to dress a team full of 18 and 19 year olds?

I'm not saying rush McIsaac to the NHL. You clearly missed the point of my comment, which is to show how Holland's comments are somewhat hypocritical. Could we not play Turgeon instead of Vanek? Could we not play Hicketts instead of Green? If we give a roster spot to Turgeon and Hicketts instead of Vanek and Green we don't have to worry about confidence being destroyed, because in reality these guys are fringe NHL players to begin with.

What exactly is the difference in the standings if we play Turgeon and Hicketts all year instead of Vanek and Green? We most likely lose more games, resulting in a higher draft pick. With all due respect, I find it pretty idiotic if you can't understand this train of thought.

Wings current roster: good for about 70 points
Wings current roster (minus Green and Vanek, but with Hicketts and Turgeon instead): good for about 65 points

What's the difference?

Also, as for your "experience" argument...isn't Kronwall still around? Isn't Ericsson on the team? Don't we still have Helm? Doesn't Abdelkader play for Detroit? I must have missed the Frans Nielsen and Trevor Daley and Jimmy Howard trades too...

 

[jkutswings]

What has Holland done before a season went all to hell that screams rebuilding? Yeah, we've had a lot of picks the past few years because Holland sold after it became clear our seasons had gone to the dogs. You're not going to win me over with this argument that Holland is blowing over $80 million every year just to shelter the kids. He was hoping Zetterberg would be there this fall, and he signed Vanek and Green not to cushion the load for the kids, but to keep trying to push this club back to the playoffs.

When it became apparent Z was going to miss the season, I'm sure those expectations took a massive hit - at least partially because they have zero faith in their younger players. And now I'm sure their message is going to shift a bit. In the end, I don't think Holland has a choice, though. He screwed up the three or so years before missing the playoffs with how he handled the roster and contracts, the time he could have legitimately softened the hard rebuild we're going to have sit through now as we wait for the junk deals to come off the books and higher picks to accumulate.

Which is where I say we're going to have to wait and see how Holland manages it, because dreams are just dreams for a reason. At some point, blowing past the cap for any and all help he can find is going to result in a club that's not a tire fire, and when we could be using another top5 pick or two, we're going to be in the teens, with a club just decent enough to not draft high enough for the help it actually needs.

And that's what concerns me as well. Nobody enjoys losing, but Holland has been so averse to finally getting onboard with rebuilding, it's been like a little kid with a cold, screaming in their high chair, refusing to take their medicine. Rather than focusing on building the best possible next core to compete for championships, he seems to be focusing on how he can get through the process as fast as possible. Repeated comments about how a traditional rebuild takes so long, focusing on being NHL ready in the Rasmussen draft, constantly overloading with veterans, the fluff piece by Fox Sports about turning the corner, taking so many forwards (who have a shorter development timeframe than defensemen), the comments by players about getting back to the playoffs this year...it's a fair amount of smoke, that I think is hiding a fire.

So the moment that the youth shows just enough growth that a wild card is a possiblity...is Captain Competitive going to jump the gun, become a buyer at the deadline, and start peddling that "just get in the playoffs and anything can happen" nonsense once again? Even if they do somehow land Jack Hughes next summer, Hronek and Cholowski aren't going to be enough to get this team out of the first round, let alone go on a deep run.

I like several of the kids they've acquired. But this franchise still has a long way to go, and I hope a new front office takes over before the current management prematurely chases a return to bubble team status.

 

[Claypool]

Which pretty much fits the definition of hope rather than certainty.

verb

1. 1.
   want something to happen or be the case.
   "he's hoping for an offer of compensation"

or "he was hoping Zetterberg could play."

I'm confident in saying he didn't hedge his bets on a 38-year old Zetterberg with a bad back (who didn't practice most of the season) returning to play for $3 million a season.

 

[Claypool]

Rather than focusing on building the best possible next core to compete for championships, he seems to be focusing on how he can get through the process as fast as possible.

I don't see any examples of this. What roster decisions have led you to believe he's trying to quickly turn this around?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Rather than focusing on building the best possible next core to compete for championships, he seems to be focusing on how he can get through the process as fast as possible. Repeated comments about how a traditional rebuild takes so long, focusing on being NHL ready in the Rasmussen draft, constantly overloading with veterans, the fluff piece by Fox Sports about turning the corner, taking so many forwards (who have a shorter development timeframe than defensemen), the comments by players about getting back to the playoffs this year...it's a fair amount of smoke, that I think is hiding a fire.

Since 2015, we've drafted 14 d-men or an average of 3.5D per draft. We've taken 15 forwards, or an average of 3.75F per draft.
I don't now what you feel is "taking so many forwards" but given how there's twice as many forward spots to fill in a lineup compared to d-men spots, taking about as many D as Fs counts as a strong focus on drafting D in my book.

We drafted project-D Cholowski instead of instant-NHLer Chychrun. Much different timeline than the difference in Rasmussen and Necas/Vilardi (who both have about as much of a shot to be in the NHL this year as Rasmussen does).

Overloading with veterans is another debatable one that hinges on what you think is overloading. We'll have at least 2 open spots on forward and at least 1 open spot on D this season.

The comments by players I think is out of Holland's control and more indicative of the fact that there is still a healthy lockerrom with players that want to compete. When they start talking about how they're not looking to win games and any success is several years away, that's cause for concern imo.

Imo, you don't have a leg to stand on here.

 

[lomekian]

Also, in all honesty, in the last few drafts, many of the wings picking of Forwards over Defencemen has been a case of the highly ranked D going earlier, the wings being particularly enamoured with a player (Larkin) or fwd prospects that are too good to turn down dropping (Mantha, Zadina, Veleno). It seems pretty clear to me that had other teams ranked players in the same way as the wings, DRW would have drafted more D than they have, particularly this year.

Ultimately their policy is BPA while trying to overall get a fairly equal total number of each. I guess with history suggesting that more 1st pair D coming in rounds 2 & 3 than 1st line forwards, it makes sense to pick forwards higher, but if there are D that the wings would have picked above said forwards in each draft...just that other teams beat them to it!

 

[BinCookin]

Lol way to take my comments way out of proportion. In no universe do I think Berrgren is anywhere near NHL ready. No I don't want Veleno on the team yet either. How exactly does not wanting Green and Vanek around equate in me wanting them to dress a team full of 18 and 19 year olds?

I'm not saying rush McIsaac to the NHL. You clearly missed the point of my comment, which is to show how Holland's comments are somewhat hypocritical. Could we not play Turgeon instead of Vanek? Could we not play Hicketts instead of Green? If we give a roster spot to Turgeon and Hicketts instead of Vanek and Green we don't have to worry about confidence being destroyed, because in reality these guys are fringe NHL players to begin with.

What exactly is the difference in the standings if we play Turgeon and Hicketts all year instead of Vanek and Green? We most likely lose more games, resulting in a higher draft pick. With all due respect, I find it pretty idiotic if you can't understand this train of thought.

Wings current roster: good for about 70 points
Wings current roster (minus Green and Vanek, but with Hicketts and Turgeon instead): good for about 65 points

What's the difference?

Also, as for your "experience" argument...isn't Kronwall still around? Isn't Ericsson on the team? Don't we still have Helm? Doesn't Abdelkader play for Detroit? I must have missed the Frans Nielsen and Trevor Daley and Jimmy Howard trades too...

"What is the difference between Hicketts and Green?
Or Turgeon and Vanek?"

I am sorry things seem so black and white to everyone. So let me give you all a black or white response.

Hicketts and Turgeon are garbage. Pure garbage, they will never make the NHL ever. They are not good.

Whats the difference?

How about Green passes the puck to Larkin... something happens that is fun to watch
Hicketts passes the puck to the opponent, Larkin has to turn around and fish the puck out of the net.

One of them allows Larkin and Mantha and those guys to play "hockey"
The other is so depressing, that Larkin and Mantha get convinced they need to leave town ASAP. Get me out of this horrid culture and city which is setting us up to lose... on purpose.
There is a HUGE difference between Green and Hicketts.

Quite frankly we are headed for near dead last with Green in the lineup... Who cares if we get dead last, or 3rd last...

Colorado got dead last with one of the worst seasons any team has ever constructed..
They picked #4.....

Even if we are dead last, we still need to be lucky to pick top 3.

 

[BinCookin]

^^ Additionally

Green can teach Hronek exactly what we want Hronek to become
Vanek can teach Rasmussen exactly what we want Ras to become.

Ya we have too many vets... I agree
Deal freakin Helm or Frk or Abdelkader to a new team... Deal Ericsson or Daley to a new team if we need room
Those last 2 signings will be worthwhile to our kids. They really will.
Next season is about developing more than winning. Anyone who thinks Green or Vanek is going to make us win... has not been noticing both those guys have not been to the playoffs in many years.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

We don't want Green to teach Hronek anything. Certainly not the defense position.

 

[BinCookin]

We don't want Green to teach Hronek anything. Certainly not the defense position.

Green knows Offense, and is not good at defense.

You think he has no pointer's about being an offensive D man... Yet we project Hronek to be a 2nd unit PP QB and offensive D man.

I mean I am open to hearing your ideas. I think putting Hronek into a position where he is the best D man on the team at age 20... is a bad move.

 

[Henkka]

"we're going younger, we're gonna rebuild this team"

-signs Thomas Vanek
-signs Mike Green

But young kids put into the lineup when they are ready to play at this level. I believe that you need to have some veterans on the club that are good role models. We've got those."

Troll Busted.

 

[kliq]

We don't want Green to teach Hronek anything. Certainly not the defense position.

@BinCookin was pretty clear that he was referring to the offensive side of the game, something that Green is very good at (if memory serves me right, he was second in Norris voting one year because of it). I don't believe anyone advocated Green mentoring the kids on the defensive side of the things.

Do posters always have to always resort to strawman arguments around here? It's like people are so hesitant to admit the positive of a move Holland makes because they are scared it may appear they are complimenting Holland. It doesn't have to be that you're either Pro Holland or Anti Holland. Lets just evaluate each move for what it is.

 

[Henkka]

Green can mentor Hronek as PP specialist and Kronwall can mentor him about defensive play.

Why has everything to be so complicated?

Stupid people just see problems everywhere, when smart people see solutions.

 

[kliq]

Green can mentor Hronek as PP specialist and Kronwall can mentor him about defensive play.

Why has everything to be so complicated?

Stupid people just see problems everywhere, when smart people see solutions.

May sound cliche but it’s true. Optimists find solutions to problems, pessimists find problems to solutions and try to mask it as being “realistic”. Take a wild guess which is a more successful approach.

 

[BinCookin]

I think the main point is, we are going to have lots of kids to watch play this upcoming year.

Anyone who continues to insist Holland is trying to win.. while disregarding the fact that he traded a player at the deadline under 3 year contract in the prime of his career (for picks only).... really isn't analyzing the situation all that closely.

 

[newfy]

Not signing Vanek translates to instantly promoting Berrgren?

Who exactly is Vanek holding back from getting an opportunity?

Lol way to take my comments way out of proportion. In no universe do I think Berrgren is anywhere near NHL ready. No I don't want Veleno on the team yet either. How exactly does not wanting Green and Vanek around equate in me wanting them to dress a team full of 18 and 19 year olds?

I'm not saying rush McIsaac to the NHL. You clearly missed the point of my comment, which is to show how Holland's comments are somewhat hypocritical. Could we not play Turgeon instead of Vanek? Could we not play Hicketts instead of Green? If we give a roster spot to Turgeon and Hicketts instead of Vanek and Green we don't have to worry about confidence being destroyed, because in reality these guys are fringe NHL players to begin with.

What exactly is the difference in the standings if we play Turgeon and Hicketts all year instead of Vanek and Green? We most likely lose more games, resulting in a higher draft pick. With all due respect, I find it pretty idiotic if you can't understand this train of thought.

Wings current roster: good for about 70 points
Wings current roster (minus Green and Vanek, but with Hicketts and Turgeon instead): good for about 65 points

What's the difference?

Also, as for your "experience" argument...isn't Kronwall still around? Isn't Ericsson on the team? Don't we still have Helm? Doesn't Abdelkader play for Detroit? I must have missed the Frans Nielsen and Trevor Daley and Jimmy Howard trades too...

No you cant play Turgeon instead of Vanek. Vanek can play with some talent and help the young guys, hes been a legit player for a long time. You can play Vanek on a guy like Larkins wing and he can help him produce and improve his offensive game. Turgeon is at best a Glendening replacement.

What would your reaction be if the wings hadnt signed Vanek and a guy like Glendening or Turgeon had to play on Larkins wing for a whole year? Allowing Larkin to develop offensively is way more important than getting a 4th liner like Turgeon into the line up.

And play Hicketts over Green? Who is going to get the puck to Zadina/Larkin/Rasmussen/Mantha and actually allow them to play? Green has his warts but the guy can move the puck. Why should Hronek and Cholowski be forced to be the scape goats for a terrible defense? Hicketts will be lucky to be a bottom pairing guy when the team is good again. Having Green on the team isnt going to ruin the tank, as evidenced last year but he might be enough talent to help the young guys a bit until theyre ready to take over.

Playing guys like Turgeon and Hicketts is completely irrelevant to the rebuild, they likely arent around when the team is good. The important thing is developing the actual high end guys while acquiring more high end talent. Green and Vanek seem like they can have a role to help those high end young guys while not hurting their chances at a Hughes/Cozens/Byram/whoever next year

 

[jkutswings]

Since 2015, we've drafted 14 d-men or an average of 3.5D per draft. We've taken 15 forwards, or an average of 3.75F per draft.
I don't now what you feel is "taking so many forwards" but given how there's twice as many forward spots to fill in a lineup compared to d-men spots, taking about as many D as Fs counts as a strong focus on drafting D in my book.

I should have clarified, since not all draft picks are close to equal, and the late ones rarely even make the NHL anymore. Detroit has used 6 of its last 7 first round picks on forwards. And in that same timespan, they've used 13 of 22 picks from the first 3 rounds on forwards. So the higher the investment, the more likely it's been up front instead of on the blue line.

We drafted project-D Cholowski instead of instant-NHLer Chychrun. Much different timeline than the difference in Rasmussen and Necas/Vilardi (who both have about as much of a shot to be in the NHL this year as Rasmussen does).

I only cited the Rasmussen draft for this particular aspect, but ok.

Overloading with veterans is another debatable one that hinges on what you think is overloading. We'll have at least 2 open spots on forward and at least 1 open spot on D this season.

I already listed that they had 10 veteran players on the roster before they brought back Green and Vanek. We just have very different ideas of overloading, apparently.

The comments by players I think is out of Holland's control and more indicative of the fact that there is still a healthy lockerrom with players that want to compete. When they start talking about how they're not looking to win games and any success is several years away, that's cause for concern imo.

Imo, you don't have a leg to stand on here.

Fair point on player comments, but collectively, I stand by my assertion.

 

[SCD]

Holland's love for retreads will never go away.

Cheap, dependable experienced players are valuable if your heading into the playoffs.

Might be reasonable on a young team that lacks veteran leadership.

 

[Shaman464]

Ok, well I posted actual evidence with players on record saying how much Vanek has helped them. Now please produce reputable articles that shows what a locker room cancer he is. I'm pretty sure suggesting so without evidence or sources is against this forum's rules and I will report you.

Please. Do. Because this was reported by Montreal's press:

Stu Cowan of The Montreal Gazette believes that Vanek disrupted some of the harmony that the Habs' roster had built up over the course of the season:
Whether or not Vanek is a locker room cancer is something that only the Canadiens players and coaches know for sure, but there is no question that he is capable of doing some special things on the ice.

Hell, even Mike Yeo says he can come across as a guy who doesn't care.

What I’ll say is obviously we got to a point where scratching Thomas became a big deal. But there were many, many times where I worked with him, talked with him and told people, ‘No, I’m not going to scratch him tonight because he’s going to respond, he’s going to play.’ So it didn’t end well.

And I am going to report you for threatening me, because this was widely reported AND discussed on HFboards in his tenure in Montreal.

Evidence:

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/thre...e-to-marc-bergevin-starts-here.1617925/page-8

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/mike-yeo-discussion-iii.1808469/page-12


I am sure I can find more, but Vanek not caring, and having issues with chemistry and the lockerroom aren't state secrets.