HOHHOF - Early Era - Round 1 !

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He's as dominant as Cleghorn. Each was clearly the best at their position. It's really tough to say one was significantly better than the other. In any case, I don't feel that strongly about any player to argue about it. All I said was that they could be "arguably" better than Nighbor, as in, it's not completely absurd.

I'd vote for Benedict over Cleghorn because I think he was more of a "winner."

Regardless, Benedict, Cleghorn, and Malone are likely to be 3 of my next 4 (as in the 2nd vote).

I just don't know if either Benedict or Cleghorn was considered to be quite as big a star as Nighbor during the era.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

The Cyclone is my only lock in round 1. Good debate amongst the other candidates. It seemed that in the past, Lalonde and Taylor were pretty much neck-and-neck in debates on this board. The latter is now the concensus choice, at least based on what's been shaping up so far.

I'm leaning against going with forwards for all four votes. It's tough to leave one of Lalonde, Nighbor, or Bowie out in the cold though. I do like the idea of at least one pre-WWI player.

Amongst those (pre-WWI), Bowie looks like the front runner. McGee makes a good case though, regardless of the short career. The fact that to this day he remains one of the all-time legendary Stanley Cup performers carries historical significance. Dan Bain won't get elected this round, and probably not the second either, but I think he's worth a look. Probably the best player of the formative 1890's era. Didn't play a lot of games, but you can only play what's available to you. Eight game seasons were typical of the era.

Amongst non-forwards, Benedict would be my first choice over Cleghorn. While there may be some debate over who the best pre-Shore defenseman was, I don't think there's any doubt that Benedict was the best goaltender. Good arguments have been presented in the past which paint Benedict in the same company as Martin Brodeur.

 

[Dreakmur]

The Cyclone is my only lock in round 1. Good debate amongst the other candidates. It seemed that in the past, Lalonde and Taylor were pretty much neck-and-neck in debates on this board. The latter is now the concensus choice, at least based on what's been shaping up so far.

I'm leaning against going with forwards for all four votes. It's tough to leave one of Lalonde, Nighbor, or Bowie out in the cold though. I do like the idea of at least one pre-WWI player.

Amongst those (pre-WWI), Bowie looks like the front runner. McGee makes a good case though, regardless of the short career. The fact that to this day he remains one of the all-time legendary Stanley Cup performers carries historical significance. Dan Bain won't get elected this round, and probably not the second either, but I think he's worth a look. Probably the best player of the formative 1890's era. Didn't play a lot of games, but you can only play what's available to you. Eight game seasons were typical of the era.

Amongst non-forwards, Benedict would be my first choice over Cleghorn. While there may be some debate over who the best pre-Shore defenseman was, I don't think there's any doubt that Benedict was the best goaltender. Good arguments have been presented in the past which paint Benedict in the same company as Martin Brodeur.

If you want to elect a pre-WW1 guy, and you don't like Bowie, then I think you've got to look at defensemen. Hod Stuart has a good legacy, but I'm not sure how much of it he should really have. To me, Mike Grant or Harvey Pulford would be the next guys after Bowie. Not only were they elite players, they both played full careers and were keys to dynasties. Still, I think Bowie is definatly the best pre-WW1 guy.

 

[Derick*]

Is there any selection process for who gets to vote?

 

[MXD]

Well, there was a thread back in November about it, but not really. I asked a few guys a few questions (those I never saw) and the answers made sense a priori, so there was no problem.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

For anyone still unsure of whether they are voting for Newsy Lalonde or Cyclone Taylor, I'd highly recommend browsing through the discussion for the last HOH Top 100 list. At that point, it was pretty much considered historical canon that those were the best two players of the pre-Morenz era. The only arguments were as to which one of the two were better and just how high they should be ranked against more modern players.

IMO, those two players should be shoo-ins for this round.

Arguments for the other two guys I'm currently planning on voting for (Nighbor and Bowie) are a bit more complicated. It's not historical canon that Nighbor is better than Joe Malone or Cy Denneny, but if you examine his career more closely, I'm certain that he was better than them. He really was considered the true superstar of the NHL's first dynasty. And I do find it interesting that Joe Malone's record setting season was largely due to beating up on Ottawa when Nighbor was out of the lineup due to bereavement leave. Once again, please see Nighbor's profile for details.

And prior to WW1, there really didn't seem to be any difference in quality between elite amateur and pro players. And Russel Bowie is the best amateur hockey player in history by far. So he gets my vote over any pre-WW1 pro player.

 

[Dreakmur]

And prior to WW1, there really didn't seem to be any difference in quality between elite amateur and pro players. And Russel Bowie is the best amateur hockey player in history by far. So he gets my vote over any pre-WW1 pro player.

I would agree with all 4 of your votes, though I wouldn't have them in the same order.

I really don't like that word "amature" in there. It makes is sound like he played in a second rate league.

Bowie played in the best league in the world. He played against the best players in the world. He dominated both. He just didn't get paid, which was his choice by the way. He was offered money and other payments many times, but beleived hockey should be played by ametuers.

 

[Leafs Forever]

I would agree with all 4 of your votes, though I wouldn't have them in the same order.

I really don't like that word "amature" in there. It makes is sound like he played in a second rate league.

Bowie played in the best league in the world. He played against the best players in the world. He dominated both. He just didn't get paid, which was his choice by the way. He was offered money and other payments many times, but beleived hockey should be played by ametuers.

It is the technically correct term, but indeed, the term "amateur" has become far too associated with second-rate and not non-paying. It'd be a nice to have a new word to distinguish the two I think.

 

[Dreakmur]

It is the technically correct term, but indeed, the term "amateur" has become far too associated with second-rate and not non-paying. It'd be a nice to have a new word to distinguish the two I think.

I know it's technically correct, but that word throws a lot of people off. Remember what happened when I drafted him on LC?

 

[Leafs Forever]

I know it's technically correct, but that word throws a lot of people off. Remember what happened when I drafted him on LC?

Yes, hence why another word to differentiate "second rate" and "not paid" leagues would be good.

 

[seventieslord]

It matters little that he was an amateur. He played against pros. That's what matters.

 

[MXD]

Update

Some votes are in, but many more should be received before we stop receiving ballots. The voting will thus be extended until Sunday, January 23rd.

It's not catastrophic yet, but not enough ballots have been received to make it a representative 1st round.

 

[DaveG]

sent, thanks for the reminder

 

[MXD]

One voter was added to the list : LapierreSports (or whatever his nickname is at this point).

 

[seventieslord]

voted.

 

[finchster]

Voted

 

[Dreakmur]

I thought the date was Sunday

Voting now

 

[MXD]

I thought the date was Sunday

Voting now

Well, it ends up being sunday, anyways

 

[kaiser matias]

Voted

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Vote in. Thought the deadline was the 26th for some reason, my appologies.

 

[VanIslander]

voted

 

[Hedberg]

Voted

 

[Hardyvan123]

voted

 

[VMBM]

Voted

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Just read this thread for the first time.

Thanks to all. This is truely The History of Hockey.

Though there were terms like "proof" and "no doubt", because this is about players that are really historical figures its good that there are huge differences of opinion on these guys. We don't know anything for sure. Numbers can lie, but so can historians.

Anyway, I need to read much more to catch up with the many posters here.