HOHHOF - Early Era - Round 1 !

[Dreakmur]

Can anyone explain why Denneny isn't included in the discussion? His numbers are pretty impressive, more than Lalonde IMO.

He played with Frank Nighbor, who was definately the key to the line. Denneny was, at best, only the second most important player on his team.

Of course, they also had Clint Benedict in net and both Eddie Gerard and George Boucher on the blueline, so an argument could be made that Denneny was as low as the 5th most important player of his Ottawa dynasty.

 

[BM67]

Can anyone explain why Denneny isn't included in the discussion? His numbers are pretty impressive, more than Lalonde IMO.

I can't help but feel that you are only looking at their NHL numbers. You need to look at their entire careers.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lalonne01.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/d/dennecy01.html

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=18977636#post18977636

 

[KingGallagherXI]

He played with Frank Nighbor, who was definately the key to the line. Denneny was, at best, only the second most important player on his team.

Denneny outproduced Nighbor every year but 18-19 and 19-20. From 20-21 to 25-26 he more than doubled his production. Denneny also scored about twice more goals and was top 3 in points every year except 18-19 and 19-20. I understand that Nighbor was great defensively but with such a large difference in offensive production I don't understand how you can say that he was definitely better. Was that the opinion of analysts at the time?

 

[MXD]

I can't help but feel that you are only looking at their NHL numbers. You need to look at their entire careers.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lalonne01.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/d/dennecy01.html

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=18977636#post18977636

Seconded. While it can be argued with Denenny's case over Nighbor as far as NHL is concerned, Nighbor really trumps Denneny if we look at their NHA's career, and it gets even worse if we consider Nighbor's years in the PCHA. In the grand scheme of things, both players were non-factors as far as HOF credentials are concerned past 26-27. Denneny was basically a non-factor prior to the NHL, while Nighbor, from 12-13 to 16-17, was AT THE VERY WORST the 7th or 8th best skater in NA.

 

[BM67]

Denneny outproduced Nighbor every year but 18-19 and 19-20. From 20-21 to 25-26 he more than doubled his production. Denneny also scored about twice more goals and was top 3 in points every year except 18-19 and 19-20. I understand that Nighbor was great defensively but with such a large difference in offensive production I don't understand how you can say that he was definitely better. Was that the opinion of analysts at the time?

Nighbor won a Hart Trophy in 23-24 and finished 3rd in 25-26. The only time Denneny shows up in the partial Hart voting we have is a 9th place in 23-24.

I've read many references to Nighbor as the best hockey player in the world, but don't recall anything claiming that for Denneny.

 

[MXD]

Nighbor won a Hart Trophy in 23-24 and finished 3rd in 25-26. The only time Denneny shows up in the partial Hart voting we have is a 9th place in 23-24.

I've read many references to Nighbor as the best hockey player in the world, but don't recall anything claiming that for Denneny.

To others : Take this part with a grain of salt. At this point, Taylor and Lalonde were out of the game or playing in Saskatchewan.

EDIT : Really just meant that the quote doesn't mean Nighbor was a superior player to Taylor and Lalonde, Taylor being out and Saskatoon being, well, Saskatoon.

 

[Dreakmur]

Denneny outproduced Nighbor every year but 18-19 and 19-20. From 20-21 to 25-26 he more than doubled his production. Denneny also scored about twice more goals and was top 3 in points every year except 18-19 and 19-20. I understand that Nighbor was great defensively but with such a large difference in offensive production I don't understand how you can say that he was definitely better. Was that the opinion of analysts at the time?

1920-21 to 1925-26 basically ignores all of Nighbor's best seasons. Frank Nighbor played in top leagues from 1913 to 1930, and most of his offensive accomplishments came before the seasons you chose to look into.

Having said that, and despite the fact that Nighbor's offensive contributions may be under-regognized by old statistics, Cy Denneny was a better scorer. In terms of overal play, however, Nighbor definately comes out ahead. Hart voting proves that he was definately more valuable to his team than Denneny was.

 

[Dreakmur]

To others : Take this part with a grain of salt. At this point, Taylor and Lalonde were out of the game or playing in Saskatchewan.

EDIT : Really just meant that the quote doesn't mean Nighbor was a superior player to Taylor and Lalonde, Taylor being out and Saskatoon being, well, Saskatoon.

Not to nit-pick, but he didn't specify what seasons his quotes were from. They may well have been from 1913-1920.

 

[seventieslord]

I agree, I think if you're calling Denneny's stats more impressive than Lalonde's you are probably looking at just the NHL. And if you're calling his stats significantly more impressive than Nighbor's, same thing.

 

[MXD]

Not to nit-pick, but he didn't specify what seasons his quotes were from. They may well have been from 1913-1920.

Well, Nighbor being the best hockey player in 1924 certainly makes sense - considering the did win the MVP award that season (the first Hart award, actually).

But from that quote, we cannot be absolutely sure that the quote covers the 13-20 era, and honestly, I'm not sure Nighbor belongs in the Top-5 players for that era (let alone being the best).

 

[Dreakmur]

Well, Nighbor being the best hockey player in 1924 certainly makes sense - considering the did win the MVP award that season (the first Hart award, actually).

But from that quote, we cannot be absolutely sure that the quote covers the 13-20 era, and honestly, I'm not sure Nighbor belongs in the Top-5 players for that era (let alone being the best).

He didn't provide any quote. He just said, "I've read many references" and did not specify which year they were from.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I got the three offensive stars of the early era (NHL): Denneny, Dye and Malone, and Sprague Cleghorn.

Denneny would have 1 Ross and 1 Richard (and 7 times top 3 in points), Dye 2 Ross and 3 Richard (and 1 retro Conn Smythe), Malone 2 Ross and 2 Richard and was considered the fastest skater of his era.

Cleghorn was not only a top defenseman offensively, but also one of the meanest, toughest and feared dman.

So many good choices though...



And who would they be?

Wow. We disagree with all of our picks. Here is my list:

1. Cyclone Taylor. The best player in PCHA history. Want historical significance? He's probably the first superstar in hockey history to create offense as a playmaker first, goalscorer second. The best playmaker of the early era, by far.

2. Newsy Lalonde. The best player in NHA history. Dominant goalscorer, playmaker, leader, and complete player. Peaked slightly sooner than Nighbor. Generally considered by history (and the HOH Top 100) to be one of the two defining players of the early era, along with Taylor. Historical significance? The key player as the Canadiens became famous as the "Flying Frenchmen."

3. Frank Nighbor. The best player on the NHL's first dynasty. The best playmaker and best defensive player in the world at the same time (something likely not done again until Bobby Clarke). He was considered the true superstar of Ottawa's dynasty over the likes of Cy Denneny. Owned Joe Malone head to head. See his profile for more details. The first player from the NHL's first dynasty inducted into the actual HHOF. Historical significance? The Lady Byng award was created to honor his clean but perfect style of play (and yes, it was an honor to win the award pre-expansion).

For the 4th player, I'm open to persuasion. Leaning towards Russel Bowie, as I feel a pre-WW1 guy should be among the first 4 inductees and he seems like the best of the bunch.

I really there are no defensemen or goaltenders listed, and I'm okay with that. In hockey's developmental years, all the very best players tended to be either centers or rovers.

For what it's worth, Babe Dye would not even be in my Top 10 of possible inductees.

 

[MXD]

He didn't provide any quote. He just said, "I've read many references" and did not specify which year they were from.

I know that. Just wanted to make sure that BM's quote wasn't construed as something like : "From the start of his career, Nighbor was the best player in the world". I wouldn't put Nighbor in the Top-5 for the pre-NHL period (from 1913 and onwards) -- and I'd put him behind at least one guy who will not get any vote in the first three rounds (actually, I hope so).

 

[seventieslord]

I know that. Just wanted to make sure that BM's quote wasn't construed as something like : "From the start of his career, Nighbor was the best player in the world". I wouldn't put Nighbor in the Top-5 for the pre-NHL period (from 1913 and onwards) -- and I'd put him behind at least one guy who will not get any vote in the first three rounds (actually, I hope so).

Taylor, Lalonde, Cleghorn, and Benedict are all arguable but who's the 5th you would place ahead? I sure hope not Denneny.

 

[Dreakmur]

I know that. Just wanted to make sure that BM's quote wasn't construed as something like : "From the start of his career, Nighbor was the best player in the world". I wouldn't put Nighbor in the Top-5 for the pre-NHL period (from 1913 and onwards) -- and I'd put him behind at least one guy who will not get any vote in the first three rounds (actually, I hope so).

Fair enough.

Would you agree that he was the best player in the world during some stretches of his career?

 

[Dreakmur]

Taylor, Lalonde, Cleghorn, and Benedict are all arguable but who's the 5th you would place ahead? I sure hope not Denneny.

While Benedict was the best goalie in te world, I'm not sure he was dominant enough to justify being named in that group.

 

[overpass]

Denneny outproduced Nighbor every year but 18-19 and 19-20. From 20-21 to 25-26 he more than doubled his production. Denneny also scored about twice more goals and was top 3 in points every year except 18-19 and 19-20. I understand that Nighbor was great defensively but with such a large difference in offensive production I don't understand how you can say that he was definitely better. Was that the opinion of analysts at the time?

See this article from 1939.

Headline: Frank Nighbor Chosen As Greatest of All Time By Veteran Ottawa Stars.

(King Clancy, Dave Gill, and Alec Connell were the stars in question, in response to Jack Adams who had said Syl Apps was the greatest player ever.)

That and other articles from the time show that Ottawa generally considered Nighbor to be the greatest player ever. You might call that hometown bias when comparing him to Taylor or Lalonde, but that should carry a lot of weight when it comes to Nighbor vs Denneny.

 

[MXD]

Fair enough.

Would you agree that he was the best player in the world during some stretches of his career?

Oh, sure!
Just not between 13 and 20.

 

[Dreakmur]

Anybody who is considering Cy Denneny should look at Russell Bowie instead.

In terms of pure offensive production, I don't think even Cyclone Taylor matches Bowie.

Here is what his scoring finishes look like during his 10 year peak:
3rd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 1st

Just as impressive is that a lot of his 1st place scoring finishes were in Gretzky-like fashion where he absolutely blew away the 2nd place guy.

 

[Dreakmur]

Oh, sure!
Just not between 13 and 20.

I'd say he was definately the best player in 1917.

Not only was he the NHA's top goal scorer, but his competition from out west - Cyclone Taylor - had a pretty poor season.

 

[MXD]

I'd say he was definately the best player in 1917.

Not only was he the NHA's top goal scorer, but his competition from out west - Cyclone Taylor - had a pretty poor season.

.... And then Lalonde proceeded to outscore him for the next four seasons, winning the scoring title in two of those, finishing 2nd in one of the others (behind his teammate) and 4th in the other (while missing 6 games -- 30% of the season).

Nighbor was probably the best player in the World at some point (that's my take on this), but that was in the Twenties.

 

[Dreakmur]

.... And then Lalonde proceeded to outscore him for the next four seasons, winning the scoring title in two of those, finishing 2nd in one of the others (behind his teammate) and 4th in the other (while missing 6 games -- 30% of the season).

Nighbor was probably the best player in the World at some point (that's my take on this), but that was in the Twenties.

So for those next seasons, Lalonde was better. What about 1917? Nighbor was definately the best player in the world that year.

Actually, combining 1916 and 1917, Nighbor was the best player in the world for that two year stretch. He trails only Joe Malone in scoring, and it's only a few points, so he would easily beat him in overall play.

 

[kaiser matias]

I've got three for sure:

Taylor
Lalonde
Bowie

Not sure about the fourth though, but am open to suggestions. I'd consider Cleghorn, but his on-ice issues make me want to have him wait a bit. To controversial for the inaugural class of the HOHHOF. Also thinking McGee, as I think someone from the Silver Seven should go in, and his name stands out more than any other.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

------------

Also, I don't think we have made a decision on what are the voting criteria. Example in hand: Hobey Baker.

I agree. If historical significance is all we look at, he should probably get in in one of the first two rounds. If we care mostly about on-ice accomplishments, he probably shouldn't get in at all.

 

[seventieslord]

While Benedict was the best goalie in te world, I'm not sure he was dominant enough to justify being named in that group.

He's as dominant as Cleghorn. Each was clearly the best at their position. It's really tough to say one was significantly better than the other. In any case, I don't feel that strongly about any player to argue about it. All I said was that they could be "arguably" better than Nighbor, as in, it's not completely absurd.