HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Guy Lafleur led his team in assists 8 times,led team in pts 8 times.Maurice Richard led assists only 2 times,and led team in pts 5 times.Lafleur never played with an all star centerman not even close.And the good centermen he had they got rid off.Maurice played with award winning players on line-Hart,Art Ross.Lafleur had Shutt yes he was good but a great player

Richard played in a smaller league where the talent was more compressed.

 

[thom]

Lafleur holds record for most winning goals in reg.time by a hab and no one is even a close second.Jimmy Roberts who played with Beliveau says Lafleur was better than Jean.Yvon Pednault,Howie Meeker

 

[unknown33]

Playing in a situation were all superstars on your team end up to be great playoff performers and get to regularly play near the max. number of playoff games most seasons opens up a lot of opportunities to be a 'money player'.

What exactly is expected in the playoffs from a team that end up 1st or 2nd seed the majority of time?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

If I were listing them in order of "skills in a vacuum", maybe I'd put Lafleur above Richard (Lafleur still goes down as one of the most smooth/"natural" looking players ever). In the spirit of "top player", Lafleur above Richard is pretty much unsupportable among most Habs fans I know with an opinion on the matter. I think Killion grabbed the essence of it, and TDMM's point about the compressed talent pool is very relevant, too.

 

[thom]

Good Point unknown-That is why its so diificult to list players as fans.Example I will give would Dennis Savard in his prime playing with Guy Lafleur.How many more pts would Lafleur had produced-a lot more.And Dennis Savard might be a top 60 player all time.Scotty hated 6 to 4 games so maybe Dennis if he were older would not have fit.But Savard and Lafleur on a line.Pts or awards dont make a player but its part of listing players.Lafleur had 94 GW goals next was Cournyier with 67.Jean B is not even top ten.Lafleur also led team in pts his last 2 full seasons-wasted 4 yrs out of hockey-dur to Serge Savard and Jacques Lemaire

 

[Killion]

Guy Lafleur led his team in assists 8 times,led team in pts 8 times.Maurice Richard led assists only 2 times,and led team in pts 5 times.Lafleur never played with an all star centerman not even close.And the good centermen he had they got rid off.Maurice played with award winning players on line-Hart,Art Ross.Lafleur had Shutt yes he was good but a great player

Did Guy Lafleur ever win all 3 Stars in a single game?

1st Star? Maurice Richard
2nd Star? Maurice Richard
3rd Star? Maurice Richard

March 23rd 1944. Semi's against Toronto. 5 Goal Explosion. 2 of them coming within 17 seconds of one another. Montreal beat the Leafs 4 games to 1 then swept Chicago in 4 winning the Stanley Cup. Next year, he scored 50 in 50. So excited he accidentally head butted one of his team mates right between the eyes. Broke the poor guys nose, eyeballs shooting outta the back of his skull like a pair of rubber bullets. And that was accidental. Now imagine him seriously disturbed & upset. No way anyone could stop him. Lafleur, Jagr, even Howe. You could stop those guys. Good luck stopping Maurice Richard. Just ask hard rock Defenseman Earl Seibert. 6'2"'s & 200lbs. Maurice carried him piggyback over 40 feet to the net in one blinding Herculean rush, totally fakes out the goalie on a deke & puts it in, shakes Seibert off his back sending him airborne and 15' into the corner boards like he was taking out the garbage.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Maurice Richard. Just ask hard rock Defenseman Earl Seibert. 6'2"'s & 200lbs. Maurice carried him piggyback over 40 feet to the net in one blinding Herculean rush, totally fakes out the goalie on a deke & puts it in, shakes Seibert off his back sending him airborne and 15' into the corner boards like he was taking out the garbage.

I've heard this one before.

I think it *may* be embellished.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Guy Lafleur led his team in assists 8 times,led team in pts 8 times.Maurice Richard led assists only 2 times,and led team in pts 5 times.

Did Guy Lafleur ever win all 3 Stars in a single game?

1st Star? Maurice Richard
2nd Star? Maurice Richard
3rd Star? Maurice Richard

Mats Sundin did both of those things.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Richard played in a smaller league where the talent was more compressed.

There is also , a huge, assumption that Canadian talent remains consistent over time (though somehow many feel that talent drops suddenly in the mid 90's and beyond when many 80's stars begin to retire...).

3 things need to be factored or considered when talking about richard

1) his team mates, specifically centers in Lach and Beliveau, never mind the overall dynasties he played on. Definitely never played in a bad situation teamwise.

2) his 50 in 50 is way overblown and his consistency in goal scoring wasn't always there either, like Killion suggested.

3) great playoff goal scorer but once again he always had a HHOF center, and really good ones too feeding him the puck.

Still definitely in the mix for top 5 winger of all time but not the #3 lock that so many make him out to be.

Realistically he has a case anywhere from 3rd to 10thish.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

There is also , a huge, assumption that Canadian talent remains consistent over time (though somehow many feel that talent drops suddenly in the mid 90's and beyond when many 80's stars begin to retire...).

3 things need to be factored or considered when talking about richard

1) his team mates, specifically centers in Lach and Beliveau, never mind the overall dynasties he played on. Definitely never played in a bad situation teamwise.

2) his 50 in 50 is way overblown and his consistency in goal scoring wasn't always there either, like Killion suggested.

3) great playoff goal scorer but once again he always had a HHOF center, and really good ones too feeding him the puck.

Still definitely in the mix for top 5 winger of all time but not the #3 lock that so many make him out to be.

Realistically he has a case anywhere from 3rd to 10thish.

Richard has a case for 2nd through 4th among wingers

 

[unknown33]

Realistically he has a case anywhere from 3rd to 10thish.

I'd like to heard those 9 names.

 

[MXD]

Richard has a case for 2nd through 4th among wingers

2 or 3.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

2 or 3.

Jagr has a case over him. I don't agree with it, but its not totally unreasonable

 

[MXD]

Jagr has a case over him. I don't agree with it, but its not totally unreasonable

Then he also has a case over Hull.

 

[MXD]

There is also , a huge, assumption that Canadian talent remains consistent over time (though somehow many feel that talent drops suddenly in the mid 90's and beyond when many 80's stars begin to retire...).

3 things need to be factored or considered when talking about richard

1) his team mates, specifically centers in Lach and Beliveau, never mind the overall dynasties he played on. Definitely never played in a bad situation teamwise.

2) his 50 in 50 is way overblown and his consistency in goal scoring wasn't always there either, like Killion suggested.

3) great playoff goal scorer but once again he always had a HHOF center, and really good ones too feeding him the puck.

Still definitely in the mix for top 5 winger of all time but not the #3 lock that so many make him out to be.

Realistically he has a case anywhere from 3rd to 10thish.

Why dynasty in plural form ?

Beliveau wasn't Rocket's center.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

3) great playoff goal scorer but once again he always had a HHOF center, and really good ones too feeding him the puck.

My problem with this line of argument is that you can just as easily say these centres had a HHOF right winger to feed the puck to.

 

[overpass]

There is also , a huge, assumption that Canadian talent remains consistent over time (though somehow many feel that talent drops suddenly in the mid 90's and beyond when many 80's stars begin to retire...).

3 things need to be factored or considered when talking about richard

1) his team mates, specifically centers in Lach and Beliveau, never mind the overall dynasties he played on. Definitely never played in a bad situation teamwise.

2) his 50 in 50 is way overblown and his consistency in goal scoring wasn't always there either, like Killion suggested.

3) great playoff goal scorer but once again he always had a HHOF center, and really good ones too feeding him the puck.

Still definitely in the mix for top 5 winger of all time but not the #3 lock that so many make him out to be.

Realistically he has a case anywhere from 3rd to 10thish.

When did Kenny Mosdell make the HOF?

 

[Killion]

Mats Sundin did both of those things.

I see.... and did Mats Sundin learn how to play hockey like Maurice Richard on a frozen river, the ice so thin it was permanently closed to the public? Did Mats Sundin love hockey so much as a kid that he played for as many as 5 teams in one season like Maurice Richard, and on one of those teams, the Paquettes of the Parc Lafontaine League scoring 133 of the teams 145 goals? And did Mats Sundin as a Junior have both ankles, both wrists and his femur broken, receiving shoddy medical attention thereafter, never healing properly? Then did Mats Sundin carry his four limbs into Stockholm to the suburban arena in Nacka & practically have to beg the Swedish equivalents of Dick Irvin & Tommy Gorman at Nacka HK for a tryout like Maurice Richard in Montreal?... and...........

...his 50 in 50 is way overblown and his consistency in goal scoring wasn't always there either, like Killion suggested.

What do you mean Hv "as I suggested"? Richards 50 in 50 was an amazing feat for its day, a record unbroken for 35 years when Mike Bossy in 80/81 scored a true 50 in 50 (Boom Boom Geoffrion & Bobby Hulls come with caveats). Richard also the first & founding member of the 500 Club. 500+ Goal Career.

 

[Hardyvan123]

My problem with this line of argument is that you can just as easily say these centres had a HHOF right winger to feed the puck to.

It's not the strongest argument in the world, i'll agree with that, but it's funny how it's applied to, ie very heavy to Trottier and Francis in our current center project then very little to say Clarke or Big Phil Espsoito.

But then again both Jean and Elmer had impressive credentials before they played with Richard.

If there was a metric for supporting line mates or a center for a sniping winger, richard would rate very high on it (in terms of support). It's one metric that would be quite subjective though that's for sure.

 

[MXD]

It's not the strongest argument in the world, i'll agree with that, but it's funny how it's applied to, ie very heavy to Trottier and Francis in our current center project then very little to say Clarke or Big Phil Espsoito.

But then again both Jean and Elmer had impressive credentials before they played with Richard.

If there was a metric for supporting line mates or a center for a sniping winger, richard would rate very high on it (in terms of support). It's one metric that would be quite subjective though that's for sure.

Elmer Lach had a good, but not a wow, season before playing with Maurice Richard.

Jean Beliveau didn't play with Richard on a regular basis.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I see.... and did Mats Sundin learn how to play hockey like Maurice Richard on a frozen river, the ice so thin it was permanently closed to the public? Did Mats Sundin love hockey so much as a kid that he played for as many as 5 teams in one season like Maurice Richard, and on one of those teams, the Paquettes of the Parc Lafontaine League scoring 133 of the teams 145 goals? And did Mats Sundin as a Junior have both ankles, both wrists and his femur broken, receiving shoddy medical attention thereafter, never healing properly? Then did Mats Sundin carry his four limbs into Stockholm to the suburban arena in Nacka & practically have to beg the Swedish equivalents of Dick Irvin & Tommy Gorman at Nacka HK for a tryout like Maurice Richard in Montreal?... and...........

So Mats Sundin isn't Maurice Richard, what does it really matter?

Hopefully you are being a bit sarcastic in the above quote because a lot of it sounded quite simply like nostalgic rhetoric, it doesn't take a hockey expert to realize that if any player scores 133 of that teams 145 goals then the said team probably isn't really very good right?

What do you mean Hv "as I suggested"? Richards 50 in 50 was an amazing feat for its day, a record unbroken for 35 years when Mike Bossy in 80/81 scored a true 50 in 50 (Boom Boom Geoffrion & Bobby Hulls come with caveats). Richard also the first & founding member of the 500 Club. 500+ Goal Career.

the 50 in 50 is so overblown, it was in a weakened war year and the closest Richard ever came to that pace (1.00 GPG) again was

0.75 GPG in 47 and
0.65 GPG in 51

The 50 in 50 was an outlier and it looks very strongly because it was a weaker league that year and not an over achieving year by Richard.

Definitely, 110% going with Maurice Richard here on this one. Love Guy Lafleur but no, sorry, nowhere close to the Money Player that was The Rocket & Ditto on that for Jagr. When it really mattered Richard exceeded all expectations year in year out post season (and regular). Statistically those others 2 guys Im afraid arent even close and when it comes to the intangibles, no, not even on the same Planet as Richard. This guy was the Ultimate Bad*** All Time from the Blue Line in, in fact, both ends of the rink. Nothing really fancy but just through sheer force of will & strength, knock you right out (both literally & figuratively by scoring critical goals or with his fists if you wanted to play it that way). Lafleur was poetry in motion; Jagr an imaginative abstract & very colorful splash of paint. Richard was a 2 X 4 delivered 2 handed between the eyes. All the chips on the table, he'd be my first pick in a Winner Take All.

2nd part in bold we will handle first here, yes Richard is a legendary goal scorer, the best of his generation but both ends of the ice? where is any evidence for that statement?

the exceeding expectations year in and year out regular season too? He was inconsistent to say the least here are his year by year GPG seasons. Placment in goal scoring follows GPG

0.70 6
1.00 1
0.54 4
0.75 1
0.53 3
0.34 -
0.61 1
0.65 2
0.56 5
0.40 4
0.53 1
0.57 1
0.54 2
0.52 2
0.54
0.40
0.37



see what's important above if the nHL was so ultra competitive in 06 then a drop from 0.75 GPG to 0.54 and 0.53 should reflect great than the actual goal scoring finish drop to 3rd and 4th one would think right?

Actually there is less variance and actual competition in a 6 team league than has been suggested so his scoring finished wouldn't drop as dramatically , all things being equal, say in a 30 team league right?

 

[quoipourquoi]

I see.... and did Mats Sundin learn how to play hockey like Maurice Richard on a frozen river, the ice so thin it was permanently closed to the public? Did Mats Sundin love hockey so much as a kid that he played for as many as 5 teams in one season like Maurice Richard, and on one of those teams, the Paquettes of the Parc Lafontaine League scoring 133 of the teams 145 goals? And did Mats Sundin as a Junior have both ankles, both wrists and his femur broken, receiving shoddy medical attention thereafter, never healing properly? Then did Mats Sundin carry his four limbs into Stockholm to the suburban arena in Nacka & practically have to beg the Swedish equivalents of Dick Irvin & Tommy Gorman at Nacka HK for a tryout like Maurice Richard in Montreal?...

Possibly.

Just thought it was funny how you guys were leaving softballs up there for each other. As if eight times leading a team in scoring is going to be a knockout blow to Rocket, or being 1st, 2nd, and 3rd star was going to be the same for Guy.

 

[MXD]

see what's important above if the nHL was so ultra competitive in 06 then a drop from 0.75 GPG to 0.54 and 0.53 should reflect great than the actual goal scoring finish drop to 3rd and 4th one would think right?

Actually there is less variance and actual competition in a 6 team league than has been suggested so his scoring finished wouldn't drop as dramatically , all things being equal, say in a 30 team league right?

So, in other words...

If Maurice Richard would have scored at a 0.51 GPG pace in 46-47, you'd have a better appreciation of his career?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Elmer Lach had a good, but not a wow, season before playing with Maurice Richard.

5th in the lead in assists (Lach was primarily a playmaker) is pretty darn good IMO. Elmer had 40 the leader had 45.

Jean Beliveau didn't play with Richard on a regular basis.

Your right Richard was in on only 66 of Jean 1205 points so it isn't so much of a line mate as a team mate type of argument then.

 

[Hardyvan123]

So, in other words...

If Maurice Richard would have scored at a 0.51 GPG pace in 46-47, you'd have a better appreciation of his career?

that's not the point of my post, the problem is that Richard is defined by his 50 in 50 (which was really an outlier) even his 0.75 GPG were followed by 0.70 (another war year) and 0.65 and 0.61.

bossy for example who is another top sniper known for goal scoring has this type of GPG line.

0.86
0.86
0.80
0.76
0.76
0.76
0.76
0.73
0.70

you get the idea here right, one can say that Bossy year in and year out did something, the original assertion that Richard did was simply false.

my guess is that there is too much defining of Richard in simplistic terms ie the 50 in 50 and not looking at his resume as a whole (which is still really awesome BTW)