HOH Top 60 Wingers Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

[Canadiens1958]

Start

Have the debates started?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Have the debates started?

I think we're just biding time with general preliminary conversation, with Round 2 starting once the list-rejections are all sorted out.

 

[seventieslord]

Have the debates started?

still waiting for replies from four people before their lists are considered final, present company included.

 

[Ursaguy]

There was never a season where you could look up the top 10 scorers in the league and find 'Tkachuk'. Missed my list.

 

[jarmoismyhero]

I had Tkachuk at 67 and felt like I was maybe underrating him a little.

I mean, the guy was a 500-goal scorer and two-time 50-goal scorer who didn't really get started until post-1993. Perennially regarded as a top-5 winger from 1994 all the way through 2002. He has to be in the conversation for top-60, right?

I honestly think there is so much hate built around him combined with his lack of playoff success that has underrated him. I mean for people to have LeClair that much higher than him in some cases just does not make sense to me. It is not like the guy led the league in goals on some fluke season. The guy is 22nd all time in adjusted goals with a goal scoring crown. As for the playoffs LeClairs numbers are actually worse than Tkachuk on a PPG level. This is one thing that has always had me wondering why do people think LeClair was so much better when looking at an overall body of work.

 

[tarheelhockey]

There was never a season where you could look up the top 10 scorers in the league and find 'Tkachuk'. Missed my list.

Point scorers no, but if you're looking at the goal scoring list you'd find him there 5 times. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Other players who were among the top-10 goal scorers five times: Shanahan, Kerr, Bure

Players with fewer than five appearances: Kurri, Recchi, McDonald, Mullen, Mogilny, Ciccarelli

Looking at the post-1993 era when goal scoring got less crazy, only 10 wingers have had multiple 50-goal seasons and only 11 players have had at least as many 40-goal seasons as Tkachuk. He's really right at that top-10 goal scorers level over a 20-year period of time.

I honestly think there is so much hate built around him combined with his lack of playoff success that has underrated him.

That, and also that he did his best work well outside the spotlight in Winnipeg and Phoenix. He didn't really get a lot of attention until he was on those powerhouse Blues teams, but that was well past his peak.

 

[seventieslord]

Point scorers no, but if you're looking at the goal scoring list you'd find him there 5 times. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Other players who were among the top-10 goal scorers five times: Shanahan, Kerr, Bure

Players with fewer than five appearances: Kurri, Recchi, McDonald, Mullen, Mogilny, Ciccarelli

Looking at the post-1993 era when goal scoring got less crazy, only 10 wingers have had multiple 50-goal seasons and only 11 players have had at least as many 40-goal seasons as Tkachuk. He's really right at that top-10 goal scorers level over a 20-year period of time.



That, and also that he did his best work well outside the spotlight in Winnipeg and Phoenix. He didn't really get a lot of attention until he was on those powerhouse Blues teams, but that was well past his peak.

In fairness to Kurri and Recchi, they were both top-5 in points three times (Tkachuk was never top-10 as you're addressing), and points are more important than goals. Your point stands with players like McDonald, Mullen, Ciccarelli, etc, though.

 

[Hardyvan123]

final list is in and Tkachuk made it, as he should IMO he had a great career even with it's faults, like most of the guys after the top 10 wingers or so we can see why they slot down.

Making the top 5 post season all star list 10 different times should make him a lock for lists, it's not like he played in a weak era or he was top 5 in a 6 team league or something.

Also of not only a single Canadian player scored more goals than Keith did during his time in the NHL and it wasn't Joe Sakic whose career overlapped Keith's.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Just in case we get started this weekend, don't be alarmed if I don't immediately grace the discussions with my unmatched hockey history knowledge. Going camping, and won't be back until late Monday night so won't check here until probably tuesday evening.

 

[jarmoismyhero]

In fairness to Kurri and Recchi, they were both top-5 in points three times (Tkachuk was never top-10 as you're addressing), and points are more important than goals. Your point stands with players like McDonald, Mullen, Ciccarelli, etc, though.

I do not disagree with what you however I think at some point when looking at these stats we really do have to look at teammates. While I am not at all disputing Kurri and Recchi greatness nor am I trying to put any player ahead I want to mention a couple of things that show how inferior the players Tkachuk got to play with were.

In the 5 seasons Kurri finished top 10, in 4 of them he had at least 2 other Oilers in the top 10 with him including one season with 3 ahead of him two seasons 2 were ahead of him and one season with one above him and another below him still in top 10. The last year he finished in the top 10 he finished 8th and that was the first year without Gretzky.

Recchi was obviously less extreme but had some good team-mates and same thing with LeClair (who is the main guy that I find odd some have him that much higher).

When I look at only the seasons Tkachuk led his team in scoring you have 5 seasons in which the 2nd place scorer finished 7pts, 26pts, 17pts, 10pts (and he played 10 less games than 2nd), and 6pts behind him. So for the most part during his peak scoring seasons Tkachuk led his team in scoring and at times not even close. And that is for points which is what his weakness is said to be. His goal scoring numbers are even a bigger separation. He led his team in goals 8 seasons and finished ahead of 2nd place on team by 8, 23, 20, 14, 10 (only played 69gm), 5, 3, 10.

I just have to believe if Tkachuk had the benefit of playing with some of the players these other guys did during their peaks his point and goal totals would look different.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

In fairness to Kurri and Recchi, they were both top-5 in points three times (Tkachuk was never top-10 as you're addressing), and points are more important than goals. Your point stands with players like McDonald, Mullen, Ciccarelli, etc, though.

Tkachuk was 11th to 15th in points a few times though. I think he's borderline as to whether he makes our list.


And I have LeClair over both Tkachuk and Naslund

 

[MXD]

Just keeping it at the top.

Actually... A question : Any update?

(I'm back in Civilized Lands btw)

 

[seventieslord]

Just keeping it at the top.

Actually... A question : Any update?

(I'm back in Civilized Lands btw)

Just determining final disposition of two lists.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Just determining final disposition of two lists.

What does "disposition" mean? Mine is sent i take it?

 

[Sentinel]

I wonder if Valery Kamensky is on anybody's list. One of my favorite wingers of all time.

 

[seventieslord]

What does "disposition" mean? Mine is sent i take it?

"What to do with them".

Yes, you're fine.

 

[MXD]

I wonder if Valery Kamensky is on anybody's list. One of my favorite wingers of all time.

I also like Brian Bellows and quickly lacked room for him, so...

 

[ted2019]

When's the voting going to start?

 

[seventieslord]

When's the voting going to start?

after we sort out the last two lists.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Bumping onto first page.

Any word on those last 2 lists? I say just let them in and let's get going.

 

[seventieslord]

Bumping onto first page.

Any word on those last 2 lists? I say just let them in and let's get going.

thank you, but you are not a screener.

The screeners are still discussing one last list. It's important to the credibility of the project that lists submitted don't have accidental omissions (about 1/3 did), ineligible players (about 6 did), don't have duplicate players (two did) and have the right number of players (3 didn't). In addition, abnormal rankings may be flagged by the screeners for me to request justification. It's not about mandating that certain players fit in certain ranges, as much as it's about being satisfied that a list was not just thrown together. It's also important to ensure that participants have a healthy concept of the meaning of "all-time". This all takes time and I appreciate everyone's patience.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Even if the disposition of all the lists was decided, they still have to create an aggregate spreadsheet, which takes hours. How many hours depends on how many spelling errors they have to fix on each of the submitted lists. (Can't set up a spreadsheet to automatically aggregate point totals if the names aren't spelled exactly the same).

And just a friendly reminder that project admins are volunteers.

I'm sure 70s will post the start date for this project when he knows it. Based off what he's saying about the current progress of things and what I know from admining past projects, I'd estimate we are 1-2 weeks from starting this.

 

[MXD]

Every minute invested by screeners is towards the well-being of a project.
Having screened in earlier projects, I can say that it's a very time consuming task, especially if participants start doing stupid things, like ranking S. Schreiner twice in a four spot gap. Not looking at anyone here...

 

[seventieslord]

Even if the disposition of all the lists was decided, they still have to create an aggregate spreadsheet, which takes hours. How many hours depends on how many spelling errors they have to fix on each of the submitted lists. (Can't set up a spreadsheet to automatically aggregate point totals if the names aren't spelled exactly the same).

And just a friendly reminder that project admins are volunteers.

I'm sure 70s will post the start date for this project when he knows it. Based off what he's saying about the current progress of things and what I know from admining past projects, I'd estimate we are 1-2 weeks from starting this.

the aggregate spreadsheet is not a problem. I can do one up in about 2 hours, spelling errors or not.

Let's say this starts next Monday, September 15th. Depending on how it goes with the last list, we might be able to start the vote 1 thread a little early too.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

I think its incredible the effort that you folks put into this.

I can't find the time to make my own list, let alone check everyone else's... Heck, I often can't find time to pay my bills...

The center project was exceptionally well-done and researched. I don't think there's anything else out there quite like this. Looking forward to it (even the 'Canadian bias' posts sure to follow ).