HOH Top 60 Wingers of All Time

Nathaniel

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Oct 18, 2013
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Lafleur has 3 playoff scoring titles (second most ever) while ovechkin has never been past the 2nd round. Ovechkin has a lot of work to do to pass lafleur
 

MXD

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Oct 27, 2005
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The idea that being the best player of a dynasty could be a negative for the said player is... novel. And not one I'm willing to seriously entertain or otherwise not consider laughable.
 

trentmccleary

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Can someone explain to me or direct me to the thread that led to Iginla being ranked so high? He's a great player but I just can't see any argument that justifies top 25 all time good, especially ahead of a guy like Bure. This isn't just me being an Oilers homer as I hate the Canucks and Flames equally either. I get that he has the Art Rosses, Rocket Richards, 1st team all star selections and all that, but he accomplished those in the least talented era in NHL history, in years with near 2011-2012 levels of suckage for right wing talent , competing against the likes of Markus Naslund/Rick Nash for his awards and the likes of Bill Guerin/Alexei Kovalev for his all star selections. That's a bunch of players who can not, should not, and will not make the Hall of Fame. A player like Bure getting second team all star selections competing against Selanne and a non-Capitals Jagr to me is far more impressive than getting a first team all star selection against Bill Guerin of all people (again this is coming from an Oilers fan, as much as he was a fan favourite he just wasn't a truly great player). To me the 30-40 range near players like Robitaille and Kariya is more in line than just 2/3 spots behind Kurri and Hull, who accumulated their accolades in seasons where right wingers weren't awful. Martin St. Louis also seems a bit too high for the same reasons as Iginla, Art Ross in an era completely devoid of talent, all star selections around when Neal/Gaborik were getting the same, but at least he had a few years against a real star like Ovechkin and some monstrous playoff runs.

Highest scorers 1996-2015:
1) Jagr
3) Iginla
4) Selanne
5) Alfredsson
6) Hossa
7) St. Louis
10) Whitney
14) Recchi

This period saw right wingers win 8 Art Ross trophies out of the 19 total that right wingers have won (Howe & Lafleur won all/most of the others).

That actually seems like a great era for right wings, kind of like the 1980's to 1995 was for centers.
 
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Theokritos

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Apr 6, 2010
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Highest scorers 1996-2015:
1) Jagr
3) Iginla
4) Selanne
5) Alfredsson
6) Hossa
7) St. Louis
10) Whitney
14) Recchi

Iginla wasn't even in the mix before 2001-2002 though. IMO this is a more telling picture of the RW field:

2002-2016:
2) Iginla
3) St. Louis
7) Hossa
13) Alfredsson
14) Kovalchuk
18) Jágr
20) Doan
25) Gáborík
27) Nash
31) Perry

4 Art Ross trophies were won by RWs during that period.
 

daver

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Lafleur has 3 playoff scoring titles (second most ever) while ovechkin has never been past the 2nd round. Ovechkin has a lot of work to do to pass lafleur

Jagr has passed LaFleur with a playoff resume that is a lot closer to OV's than LaFleur's. One good playoff run or another high goalscoring/Hart finish for OV could do the trick.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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The idea that Jagr, St-Louis and to a lesser extent Kovalchuk, Hossa, Alfie and Perry (for later years) wasn't good competition at RW is a bit mind-blowing.
 

MXD

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Oct 27, 2005
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Jagr has passed LaFleur with a playoff resume that is a lot closer to OV's than LaFleur's. One good playoff run or another high goalscoring/Hart finish for OV could do the trick.

Jagr has passed Lafleur mostly on the basis of his longevity though. There were probably very few putting Jagr ahead of Lafleur (with cause, I might add) when the former had only 1100 games (in other words, 03-04) ... And at that time, Jagr had, what, 5 Art Ross?

AO has yet to reach 900 games.

In other words, Jagr required about 500 games of Post-31 Years Old Jagr to fill the gap playoffs gap with Lafleur in order to definitely pass Lafleur.

Those are only my estimates, but I've been around here long enough to have a decent grasp as to when Jagr being better than Lafleur gained widespread acceptance.
 
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seventieslord

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Mar 16, 2006
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Jagr has passed LaFleur with a playoff resume that is a lot closer to OV's than LaFleur's. One good playoff run or another high goalscoring/Hart finish for OV could do the trick.

I guess there's a lot of ways to define the greatness of a playoff resume, but Jagr has 2.5X as many playoff games and playoff points as Ovechkin, so reading this, I immediately thought it sounded off.

I guess one way to look at the playoff records of these offense-only forwards is to look at their significant playoff scoring finishes. Everything through top-11 is included. To get there you'd need to be top-5 on a winner or finalist, have an excellent three rounds or abnormally high stats for a player eliminated in round 2. Here are their finishes:

Lafleur: 1, 1, 1, 2, 3
Jagr: 3, 4, 7, 10, 11
Ovechkn: 5

There are other ways to look at it for sure, but I'd still have to say Jagr is closer in the playoffs to Lafleur than to Ovechkin.
 

daver

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I guess there's a lot of ways to define the greatness of a playoff resume, but Jagr has 2.5X as many playoff games and playoff points as Ovechkin, so reading this, I immediately thought it sounded off.

I guess one way to look at the playoff records of these offense-only forwards is to look at their significant playoff scoring finishes. Everything through top-11 is included. To get there you'd need to be top-5 on a winner or finalist, have an excellent three rounds or abnormally high stats for a player eliminated in round 2. Here are their finishes:

Lafleur: 1, 1, 1, 2, 3
Jagr: 3, 4, 7, 10, 11
Ovechkn: 5

There are other ways to look at it for sure, but I'd still have to say Jagr is closer in the playoffs to Lafleur than to Ovechkin.

Upon closer look, I think this makes more sense. OV likely needs more than just one good playoff run, or Top 3 regular season to get past Guy.
 

seventieslord

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Upon closer look, I think this makes more sense. OV likely needs more than just one good playoff run, or Top 3 regular season to get past Guy.

I mean absolutely, if you're Jagr, you should have better than 3, 4, 5, 10, 11 too. He pretty much longevitied his way to an acceptable playoff record for a top-20 player.
 

daver

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I mean absolutely, if you're Jagr, you should have better than 3, 4, 5, 10, 11 too. He pretty much longevitied his way to an acceptable playoff record for a top-20 player.

The Top 6 is certainly interesting as besides Howe, the next five have quite the varying degrees of playoff resumes. Hull's is viewed as somewhat disappointing, Richard is one of the best playoff performers of all-time, Jagr's is missing a high end run, and Guy's peak is up there with the very best, and OV is at risk of not having getting into the Top 20 because of a lack of playoff success.

If we just went by regular season resumes would it look like this?

Howe
Hull
Jagr/Richard
Richard/Jagr
OV
LafLeur
 

seventieslord

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The Top 6 is certainly interesting as besides Howe, the next five have quite the varying degrees of playoff resumes. Hull's is viewed as somewhat disappointing, Richard is one of the best playoff performers of all-time, Jagr's is missing a high end run, and Guy's peak is up there with the very best, and OV is at risk of not having getting into the Top 20 because of a lack of playoff success.

If we just went by regular season resumes would it look like this?

Howe
Hull
Jagr/Richard
Richard/Jagr
OV
LafLeur

I'd say "OV/Lafleur", otherwise, yeah.

edit: Actually no, Jagr is clearly ahead of Richard in the regular season isn't he?
 

seventieslord

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If you compare their top six seasons, I would see an edge to Lafleur. Hard to keep OV from longevityzing himself past though, if not already.

which is better?

A) 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 4 in points, or
B) 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4?

A) 111, 107, 105, 100, 100, 99 in VsX, or
B) 106, 100, 100, 100, 98, 94?

A) 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 in hart voting, or
B) 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 6?

I would say A, A, B. I would assume you'd agree. That favours Lafleur 2 of 3 times. I don't see an overall advantage worth mentioning for either player.

I think this is "frozen in time", so to speak. Ovechkin won't improve on these numbers, so his best 6 seasons are what they are. He's relying on longevity (as BenchBrawl recently said: duplicating an increasingly inferior version of himself season after season) to pass Lafleur, if it's even possible to do it that way.
 

daver

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which is better?

A) 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 4 in points, or
B) 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4?

A) 111, 107, 105, 100, 100, 99 in VsX, or
B) 106, 100, 100, 100, 98, 94?

A) 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 in hart voting, or
B) 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 6?

I would say A, A, B. I would assume you'd agree. That favours Lafleur 2 of 3 times. I don't see an overall advantage worth mentioning for either player.

I think this is "frozen in time", so to speak. Ovechkin won't improve on these numbers, so his best 6 seasons are what they are. He's relying on longevity (as BenchBrawl recently said: duplicating an increasingly inferior version of himself season after season) to pass Lafleur, if it's even possible to do it that way.

I know some would throw goal scoring finishes in their too. The Hart voting makes it pretty close between them. OV has another 6th place too.

To your "frozen in time" point though, as this is just regular season resumes, OV would need some more Top Art and Hart finishes to make up for the chasm in playoff resumes. Regular season longevity won't do it.
 

seventieslord

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I know some would throw goal scoring finishes in their too. The Hart voting makes it pretty close between them. OV has another 6th place too.

To your "frozen in time" point though, as this is just regular season resumes, OV would need some more Top Art and Hart finishes to make up for the chasm in playoff resumes. Regular season longevity won't do it.

I agree to make his regular season materially better in a conversation for top-5 wingers, he would have to have another season that would improve his best 6-7. Which is unlikely the way things are going. And then he'd still be short in the playoffs, of course.
 

ted2019

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Oct 3, 2008
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What's Ovechkin's ceiling? Is there anyone in the top-5 who is simply too far ahead of him to be surpassed in a realistic scenario? Howe seems to me to be obviously of a higher caliber, no matter what Ovie does during his late career. Anyone else?

I think Ovie is a slam dunk to become top 5. As long as he can stay healthy and decides not to go to the KHL anytime soon, he should finish ( staying injury free for the most part) with over 700/725 goals. He has 547 for his career right now and is on pace for another 16 before the end of the season. That would give him 563 goals at the age of 31. He already had 1000 points and with 6 Rockets , 7 1st team AS and 3 Harts, he could/should move past Richard & Lafleur. I think Ovie will be around the 4th position for a very long time. A lot will depend if his body starts to breakdown after playing a Lindros type style his entire career.
 

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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I guess there's a lot of ways to define the greatness of a playoff resume, but Jagr has 2.5X as many playoff games and playoff points as Ovechkin, so reading this, I immediately thought it sounded off.

I guess one way to look at the playoff records of these offense-only forwards is to look at their significant playoff scoring finishes. Everything through top-11 is included. To get there you'd need to be top-5 on a winner or finalist, have an excellent three rounds or abnormally high stats for a player eliminated in round 2. Here are their finishes:

Lafleur: 1, 1, 1, 2, 3
Jagr: 3, 4, 7, 10, 11
Ovechkn: 5

There are other ways to look at it for sure, but I'd still have to say Jagr is closer in the playoffs to Lafleur than to Ovechkin.

Not a very popular idea in the last 3-4 years, but I still see a clear case to be made for Lafleur > Jagr based on playoffs.I'm not saying the case is overwhelmingly strong, or even that it is strong at all, but it exists.

Jagr strongly redeemed himself with his fun, older-brotherly persona in the last years of his career, but if you read older posts, you can see how people really saw Jagr.I'm talking strictly about his prima donna attitude, his failures as a leader and go-to guy, and not to be confused with the general knowledge which was less advanced in those years.People didn't think that highly of him as a personality and go-to guy.This doesn't take away his points, but it's part of the overall picture which Jagr's latest likeable personality brushes under the carpet.
 
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Kant Think

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Aug 30, 2007
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I tend to put more weight on playoffs heroics than the average, but I don't automatically penalize players with a weak playoff resume, context is everything.

As for Ovechkin, I think he is well on his way to surpass Flower, with a chance to leapfrog Jagr, but as far as Richard goes, at the very least a post-30 career mirroring Yzerman in the playoff (both were regarded as under performers prior to turning 30) would be necessary, and then some.

Richard's body of work in the post-season adds a TON of value to his career, more so than for any other wingers, he was great in this regard, and he sustained his elite play in the playoffs for virtually the whole length of his career.

Mind you, I very much like Ovechkin, but I think making it to #4 on this list is his upper limit, baring Howe-Bourque-Jagresque longevity coupled with greater success in the playoffs.
 

Theokritos

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Jagr strongly redeemed himself with his fun, older-brotherly persona in the last years of his career, but if you read older posts, you can see how people really saw Jagr.I'm talking strictly about his prima donna attitude, his failures as a leader and go-to guy, and not to be confused with the general knowledge which was less advanced in those years.

It's astonishing what being a good NHL player at an advanced age can do for your image. Teemu Selänne never had as many detractors as Jágr, but up until ~2010 he was not close to being celebrated as a legend. And then he had a good season at the age of 40 and suddenly he became an admirable hero and luminary for non-Finns too.
 

Trafalgar Sadge Law

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Nov 8, 2007
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The idea that Jagr, St-Louis and to a lesser extent Kovalchuk, Hossa, Alfie and Perry (for later years) wasn't good competition at RW is a bit mind-blowing.

He didn't actually compete against any of them except St. Louis and Hossa though. His competition was literally Guerin and Kovalev in two of the years, that's not even opinion, that's just what the all star balloting showed. In the years where Iginla was good, the rest of those guys were either injured, not ready yet, or doing whatever Jagr was doing in Washington. And when those guys were playing to their standards, Iginla slumped.
 

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