HOH Top 60 Centers of All Time

[K Fleur]

that's a good point. but man, those three guys ahead of him...

it's ironic, actually, because i think if you were to compare crosby to one player in history mikita is probably the most apt.

and now that i think about it, surely there must have been a lot of people who thought mikita was the best player of the second half of the '60s right?

Interesting. Are you coming to this conclusion from their respective play styles? Or more their achievements? Mikita played his last professional game before I was born soo..

 

[Canadiens1958]

Linking lists of league champions and random individual accomplishments that are common across eras doesn't explain away everything else.

We get "clusters" in Canada where we tend to be stronger at one position and weaker at another. That's only within Canada though. When other nations are added they have their own versions of those clusters. Look at the US in the 80's and early 90's and the defensemen they produced. Chelios, Leetch, Langway, the Hatchers, even little HOFer Phil Housley. Likewise, look at Sweden recently with Karlsson, Hedman, Klingberg, OEL, and Dahlin on his way. If it was still only a Canadian league we'd only be relying on the Canadian clusters but luckily we have far more than that now. It results in more streams and more talent overall.

Is anything really random? I'm in the camp that says Bobby Orr was born with some natural gifts and an aptitude for hockey. That you could say is "random" but that's not all that was required for him to excel. He also loved everything about hockey or he wouldn't have been that committed it for his whole life. He was also provided with lots of opportunities to skate and play so those talents could come out and he could make them grow. Is that really random? Seems like lots of things needed to actually happen for Bobby Orr to exist as we know him today. We're not getting any "clusters" in hockey if kids don't get an opportunity to play the sport.

Regardless of the sport,championship clusters of equal length occur across eras, in small,single digit leagues and 30+ team leagues, regardless of the sport.In segregated(by nationality or whatever criteria)or fully integrated international leagues. The size of the league does not impact championship clusters either at the team levelor individual performance level.

All clusters have influences.Orr influenced youth hockey in the USA with the results you list. Lidstrom influenced hockey in Sweden with the results you list.


Kids get the opportunity to indulge in an activity if there is a possibility of a career with earnings. Greater the possibility, the greater the number of kids involved. When they grow to adulthood they make career choices. Choosing the activity that pays best, short and long term. Like a carpenter or any tradesperson.

Just like Canadian carpenters, plumbers, electricians from the post WWII era are not denigrated because there were no Swedish or Czech or Soviet or American carpenters, plumbers, electricians on sites in Canada, Canadian hockey players should not be denigrated because there were no Europeans on the ice.

Conflating more as better does not work. At a buffett diners eat more but not better or healthier. Likewise hockey with a wider selection of players(ingredients) does not produce a better on ice product,just a more varied one in terms of styles.

Random is basically unpredictable or unforeseen.Innate skills or talents very doubtful. List innate hockey skills.

If Bobby Orr was born with an aptitude for hockey, was Bill Gates born with an aptitude for ......... or did he just take advantage of an opportunity that suited his aptitudes?

 

[Canadiens1958]

It's possible. Though the poll was taken very early in 1970, and recency bias would tend to favor players who were better more recently, wouldn't it?

Recency bias?

More like a weight distribution shift where individual success gets prioritized over team success.

 

[Doctor No]

Recency bias?

More like a weight distribution shift where individual success gets prioritized over team success.

No, recency bias is a thing and it's quite powerful (it's also a reason why the Polls section should be taken about as seriously as we take it here).

Why would you suggest that recency bias wouldn't apply in this situation?

 

[Canadiens1958]

No, recency bias is a thing and it's quite powerful (it's also a reason why the Polls section should be taken about as seriously as we take it here).

Why would you suggest that recency bias wouldn't apply in this situation?

Never suggested any such thing.

Few points that have to be defined. When does recency start? Specific year? Is it progressive in a fluid manner -last 10 seasons, last 20?

If it is a thing and powerful then it should be easy to identify and pinpoint.

 

[Doctor No]

If it is a thing and powerful then it should be easy to identify and pinpoint.

Yes. TDMM did that.

You downplayed it by ascribing to another cause, then claimed that you did nothing of the sort when I challenged it.

And here we are, which is where we usually end up.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yes. TDMM did that.

You downplayed it by ascribing to another cause, then claimed that you did nothing of the source when I challenged it.

And here we are, which is where we usually end up.

1958 Coaches Poll:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/1958-nhl-coaches-poll.1370669/

Questions and answers reflect how NHL hockey was played and recorded sixty years ago. Would not reflect how the game is played today.

Some examples contrasting with what a 2018 poll would ask.

Poll distinguishes between Best Stickhandler and Best Puck Carrier. Today viewed as one and the same.

Best Bodychecker. Today most physical as defined by "Hits" in the official NHL stats.

Goaltender questions reflect the one goalie system.

Defencemen are not polled according to modern standards. Transition, First Pass,Point Shot.

Skater positions handedness is not a consideration unlike today.

Referees - reflects the one referee system.

 

[Doctor No]

Thanks for providing another example of my point.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Interesting. Are you coming to this conclusion from their respective play styles? Or more their achievements? Mikita played his last professional game before I was born soo..

mikita was before my time too, though i have seen some tape. this is mostly from reading though: i mean style—smaller center, well-rounded and complete game, versatile skillset, no one spectacular trait but great at everything, can be a spazz at times.

visually, crosby is thicker and plays with a lower center of gravity from what i’ve seen of mikita.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Since I referenced the poll, I'll just post it again for those who haven't seen it before:

AP poll of the sports writers and sportscasters for "Best Player of the 1960s" (published Jan 29, 1970):

The full results were this:

hull: 436.5
howe: 145.5
orr: 19
mikita: 7
Beliveau, P Esposito, Plante: 2
Worsley, Geoffrion: 1

I guess a writer picked Hull and Howe as tied for them to each have half a point.

A very young Bobby Orr already showing up is similar to a young Maurice Richard already showing up in 1950.

In addition to Hull, also impressive that Howe finished clear #2 in what was the 2nd best decade of his own career.

The Anson Record - Google News Archive Search

thanks, i hadn’t seen that.

actually, i would have guessed mikita would be behind hull, howe, and beliveau, so i’m surprised (but not so surprised) that so little of orr already is getting attention, but more surprised that mikita is ahead of beliveau.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'm not sold on Mikita being a very strong defensive player quite frankly...

 

[Canadiens1958]

I'm not sold on Mikita being a very strong defensive player quite frankly...

Not Henri Richard or Dave Keon level but he gets a lot of mileage because he was the second defensive RHS center behind Henri Richard for over 10 years during a period 1955-80 when there were very few RHS centers.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm not sold on Mikita being a very strong defensive player quite frankly...

He seems to have been bad defensively early on, gotten acceptable towards the second half of his offensive prime, then became a very good defensive player into the 1970s as he exited his offensive prime.

I get something of a sense of an Yzerman-like arc from Mikita.

 

[danincanada]

Regardless of the sport,championship clusters of equal length occur across eras, in small,single digit leagues and 30+ team leagues, regardless of the sport.In segregated(by nationality or whatever criteria)or fully integrated international leagues. The size of the league does not impact championship clusters either at the team levelor individual performance level.

As of now, it's clear to us at the moment that the larger NHL (30+ teams) with international talent do spread out the championships and awards more than when the NHL had far fewer teams (O6 and the 12 team league). Of course that's what happened because there are more teams (and now a cap so more parody) and more players, and yes, more truly elite players now than then.

All clusters have influences.Orr influenced youth hockey in the USA with the results you list. Lidstrom influenced hockey in Sweden with the results you list.

If clusters are influenced than they are not just random happenings. Nothing really is, is it? "Things" are constantly happening making other things happen or not happen.

Kids get the opportunity to indulge in an activity if there is a possibility of a career with earnings. Greater the possibility, the greater the number of kids involved. When they grow to adulthood they make career choices. Choosing the activity that pays best, short and long term. Like a carpenter or any tradesperson.

Right, and in terms of sports the NHL now is probably more attractive than ever because even a 4th liner making the league minimum for 5 years is going to make $3,250,000 over his short career. Not a bad gig.

Just like Canadian carpenters, plumbers, electricians from the post WWII era are not denigrated because there were no Swedish or Czech or Soviet or American carpenters, plumbers, electricians on sites in Canada, Canadian hockey players should not be denigrated because there were no Europeans on the ice.

No one is being denigrated, I'm just trying to be realistic. You should try it sometime.

Do you give the elite Russians who played in the RSL full value for their careers? Of course not, because they were only in a domestic league and compared to todays NHL that league clearly didn't have the same talent pool feeding it as the NHL has now, nor the same amount of elite players to compare them with. The same applies to the O6 NHL. Instead most people here act as though those players were human cyborg's or something. It's funny when that gets tossed at young posters or the main board but the opposite happens here all the time.

Conflating more as better does not work. At a buffett diners eat more but not better or healthier. Likewise hockey with a wider selection of players(ingredients) does not produce a better on ice product,just a more varied one in terms of styles.

More elite players is better in my opinion. Maybe you would prefer just watching a domestic Canadian league but I like having all those elite non-Canadians as well. It isn't just more varied, there are actually more elite players because of it.

If Bobby Orr was born with an aptitude for hockey, was Bill Gates born with an aptitude for ......... or did he just take advantage of an opportunity that suited his aptitudes?

Both.

 

[Canadiens1958]

As of now, it's clear to us at the moment that the larger NHL (30+ teams) with international talent do spread out the championships and awards more than when the NHL had far fewer teams (O6 and the 12 team league). Of course that's what happened because there are more teams (and now a cap so more parody) and more players, and yes, more truly elite players now than then.



If clusters are influenced than they are not just random happenings. Nothing really is, is it? "Things" are constantly happening making other things happen or not happen.



Right, and in terms of sports the NHL now is probably more attractive than ever because even a 4th liner making the league minimum for 5 years is going to make $3,250,000 over his short career. Not a bad gig.



No one is being denigrated, I'm just trying to be realistic. You should try it sometime.

Do you give the elite Russians who played in the RSL full value for their careers? Of course not, because they were only in a domestic league and compared to todays NHL that league clearly didn't have the same talent pool feeding it as the NHL has now, nor the same amount of elite players to compare them with. The same applies to the O6 NHL. Instead most people here act as though those players were human cyborg's or something. It's funny when that gets tossed at young posters or the main board but the opposite happens here all the time.



More elite players is better in my opinion. Maybe you would prefer just watching a domestic Canadian league but I like having all those elite non-Canadians as well. It isn't just more varied, there are actually more elite players because of it.



Both.

Parity. Salary Cap in the 1930s produced similar clusters to the recent salary cap in a league that ranged from 8 to 10 teams.

Clusters are never influenced.

RSL players yes, recognize how some rose to International stardom while others did not.Just like players in the various Canadian, American senior leagues, Swedish and Czech national leagues did the same, some on their way to the NHL.

I just enjoy elite performance without concern for provenance. That Ovechkin finally mastered playing a complete game - defensively, blocking shot, hitting when appropriate, impresses regardless of his provenance.

Your league size argument still fails when you try to claim that today the NHL has more elite players. O6 era you had six team captains with 3 assistants. Today you have 31 team captains with 3 assistants. oes not mean today's NHL has more leadership. Just means teams respect the rules about having representatives to talk to on ice officials regardless of era.

 

[Professor What]

Just a housekeeping note: I kind of doubt that Newsy Lalonde weighed 1680 pounds.

 

[wetcoast]

Just checked in here and read from the top of the page down.

As much as I thought at times that Canadiens1958 was a stubborn SOB I really miss him around here.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Just a housekeeping note: I kind of doubt that Newsy Lalonde weighed 1680 pounds.

That was his adjusted weight.

 

[sr edler]

That was his adjusted weight.

Era adjusted? Brilliant.

 

[Sentinel]

Just checked in here and read from the top of the page down.

As much as I thought at times that Canadiens1958 was a stubborn SOB I really miss him around here.

Live your life so that you will be missed on the HFBoards History forum!

 

[SHLfantasycamp]

How long until McDavid is #1 on this list?

 

[jigglysquishy]

How long until McDavid is #1 on this list?

The likelihood he ends up as 1 is functionally zero. He is peaking way below Gretzky, is way behind on trophy case age for age, and will almost certainly not come close to replicating his playoff success.

His realistic ceiling is third best centre/ fifth best player. Unless he has some unexpected longevity and can pull ahead of Lemieux for 2/4.

I have him 15 on my centres list right now.

 

[SHLfantasycamp]

The likelihood he ends up as 1 is functionally zero. He is peaking way below Gretzky, is way behind on trophy case age for age, and will almost certainly not come close to replicating his playoff success.

His realistic ceiling is third best centre/ fifth best player. Unless he has some unexpected longevity and can pull ahead of Lemieux for 2/4.

I have him 15 on my centres list right now.

I have to disagree. He has changed the game. He is groundbreaking and his cups will come. He will average 2 points per game eventually. The only player in the modern era to do that. He will be the Tom Brady of hockey, will just get better and better.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I have to disagree. He has changed the game. He is groundbreaking and his cups will come. He will average 2 points per game eventually. The only player in the modern era to do that. He will be the Tom Brady of hockey, will just get better and better.

Saying he will average 2 PPG eventually is completely baseless. He's likely in his peak season right now, and isn't at 2 PPG.

Give McDavid his best case scenario this year (60 goals/150 points with second place being at 115).

Gretzky vs McDavid after year 8

Point finishes
Gretzky: 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
McDavid: 1,1,1,1,1,2,2
Remove same finishes
Gretzky: 1,1,1
McDavid: 2,2

Hart
Gretzky: 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
McDavid: 1,1,1,2,3,5,5
Removing same finishes
Gretzky: 1,1,1,1,1
McDavid: 2,3,5,5

VsX
Gretzky: 145.0
McDavid: 115.4

Vsx7 of 115.4 is insane. Like 5th highest all time insane. And Gretzky is still 30 points ahead. That's the same gap as McDavid to Brad Marchand.

Goals
Gretzky: 1,1,1,1,1,4,5,7
McDavid: 1,2,6,7,7,10

Assists
Gretzky: 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
McDavid: 1,1,1,2,2,2,3

Leading playoffs in scoring
Gretzky: 4
McDavid: 1

Cups
Gretzky: 3 (1 Smythe)
McDavid: 1

The gap between the two after year 8 is massive. Like unbelievably massive. Peak season, best 3, best 5. Best playoffs, total resume. It is not fair to McDavid.

After year 8 Gretzky still had

Point finishes of
1,1,1,2,2,3,3,4

2x leading playoffs in points
Cup (and Smythe)
Hart: 1,2,3,4,5

This isn't even getting into Gretzky's international resume, the best of any non Soviet, since McDavid hasn't had the chance to play.

McDavid is too far behind Gretzky to ever catch him. If that's your expectation you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[MXD]

Saying he will average 2 PPG eventually is completely baseless. He's likely in his peak season right now, and isn't at 2 PPG.

Give McDavid his best case scenario this year (60 goals/150 points with second place being at 115).

Gretzky vs McDavid after year 8

Point finishes
Gretzky: 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
McDavid: 1,1,1,1,1,2,2
Remove same finishes
Gretzky: 1,1,1
McDavid: 2,2

Hart
Gretzky: 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
McDavid: 1,1,1,2,3,5,5
Removing same finishes
Gretzky: 1,1,1,1,1
McDavid: 2,3,5,5

VsX
Gretzky: 145.0
McDavid: 115.4

Goals
Gretzky: 1,1,1,1,1,4,5,7
McDavid: 1,2,6,7,7,10

Assists
Gretzky: 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
McDavid: 1,1,1,2,2,2,3

Leading playoffs in scoring
Gretzky: 4
McDavid: 1

Cups
Gretzky: 3 (1 Smythe)
McDavid: 1

The gap between the two after year 8 is massive. Like unbelievably massive. Peak season, best 3, best 5. Best playoffs, total resume. It is not fair to McDavid.

After year 8 Gretzky still had

Point finishes of
1,1,1,2,2,3,3,4

2x leading playoffs in points
Cup (and Smythe)
Hart: 1,2,3,4,5

This isn't even getting into Gretzky's international resume, the best of any non Soviet, since McDavid hasn't had the chance to play.

McDavid is too far behind Gretzky to ever catch him. If that's your expectation you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

...But I've just been told that finishes are worthless !!!!