HOH Top 60 Centers of All Time

[Canadiens1958]

That was exactly my point earlier, the notion of talent compression in the O6 era has its limits.

Likewise in modern hockey. Aldcorn and MacDonald had 22 and 33 goal seasons playing mainly with Howe,drastic drop playing with others. Colby Armstrong scored at a pace surpassing 0.80PPG with Crosby. 0.10-1.15 PPG on other teams.

Be it O6 or the Salary Cap there are always teams that have lower or mismanaged player budgets.

 

[daver]

One, who was Crosby playing with in 2007 at ES? Colby Armstrong. Yup. He played with a 38 year old Mark Recchi at times. It's a nuance that most people either are unaware of or selectively ignore.

I would say McDavid, with Crosby, falls into the category of a talent that produces regardless of the quality of his linemates.

Where some reasonable separation is needed is when Crosby is not given the team's offensive role or given linemates that are at least viewed as being high on his team's depth chart and still produces at a team/league best rate. That allows the 2nd and 3rd lines to be loaded up more and take advantage of better matchups i.e. mainly defensive pairings. IMO, that is what keeps Crosby close the best player discussion currently. We will see if McDavid can do the same.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yeah but that doesn't count a lot when assessing his resume, does it? Lesser league - it doesn't add much to his resume, not as much as having success in the NHL those years would have.

Which is why it's impressive that despite starting at age 22 he's looked at the #3 center all time.
Flip side of looking at it - because of those 4 "missed" years - thats 4 extra years of prime McDavid/Crosby have on him. We just spent the past cpl pages talking about each players first 3 years. In comparison - Beliveau is still at 0 at the same stage - and both McDavid/Crosby have a 4th year to add to their resume before Beliveau even starts his career, if we are doing apples to apples comparison by age.

If Crosby/McDavid both (or either/or) end up passing Beliveau - this will be a huge reason why.

Sports is not about how someone or a team starts. It is about how they finish.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I would say McDavid, with Crosby, falls into the category of a talent that produces regardless of the quality of his linemates.

Where some reasonable separation is needed is when Crosby is not given the team's offensive role or given linemates that are at least viewed as being high on his team's depth chart and still produces at a team/league best rate. That allows the 2nd and 3rd lines to be loaded up more and take advantage of better matchups i.e. mainly defensive pairings. IMO, that is what keeps Crosby close the best player discussion currently. We will see if McDavid can do the same.

Key point is that it forces the opposing team to split their defensive focus over two or three lines. Cannot regularly load the defensive line with the top d-pairing.

 

[66871]

Likewise in modern hockey. Aldcorn and MacDonald had 22 and 33 goal seasons playing mainly with Howe,drastic drop playing with others. Colby Armstrong scored at a pace surpassing 0.80PPG with Crosby. 0.10-1.15 PPG on other teams.

Be it O6 or the Salary Cap there are always teams that have lower or mismanaged player budgets.

Yes. Exactly. Worth remembering when the talent compression assertions come up.

 

[bobholly39]

Sports is not about how someone or a team starts. It is about how they finish.

An average player might play until 38, on average
An average player might start to decline at age 31, on average

Simple math. The players who start at 18 have a net advantage over the guy who starts at 22. Doesn't mean the 22 year old can't have a better career (as Beliuveau has, over every other center in history but 2). But it's easier for the 18 years old to surpass him.

And considering the quality of players both Crosby and McDavid are - 20 years from now looking back this may be the key reason why 1 or both surpass him, if they do.

 

[daver]

An average player might play until 38, on average
An average player might start to decline at age 31, on average

Simple math. The players who start at 18 have a net advantage over the guy who starts at 22. Doesn't mean the 22 year old can't have a better career (as Beliuveau has, over every other center in history but 2). But it's easier for the 18 years old to surpass him.

And considering the quality of players both Crosby and McDavid are - 20 years from now looking back this may be the key reason why 1 or both surpass him, if they do.

It is an interesting dynamic that, unlike the 06 especially, teenagers were not given the opportunity/were not ready as much as we have seen since the 80s.

It seems to crop up in comparisons that it unfair to compare Crosby's longevity of prime vs. some others given they did not have the chance to play at such a young age.

 

[Canadiens1958]

An average player might play until 38, on average
An average player might start to decline at age 31, on average

Simple math. The players who start at 18 have a net advantage over the guy who starts at 22. Doesn't mean the 22 year old can't have a better career (as Beliuveau has, over every other center in history but 2). But it's easier for the 18 years old to surpass him.

And considering the quality of players both Crosby and McDavid are - 20 years from now looking back this may be the key reason why 1 or both surpass him, if they do.

This was graphically explained in another thread.Link:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/144721089/

You over value numbers generated inefficiently.

 

[Laineux]

By those metrics, sure you can put McDavid ahead slightly but that ignores a bunch of factors.

Do you think one of these factors could be that in McDavid's third year Oilers had the least amount of powerplay opportunities by any team within a 82 game season since PPOs have been tracked and he lead the league in ES points with the biggest % margin since Wayne Gretzky and completely shattered what anyone else has achieved in even strength scoring chance generation (per-minute and absolute) since the stats have been tracked in the last 11 years.

 

[daver]

Do you think one of these factors could be that in McDavid's third year Oilers had the least amount of powerplay opportunities by any team within a 82 game season since PPOs have been tracked and he lead the league in ES points with the biggest % margin since Wayne Gretzky and completely shattered what anyone else has achieved in even strength scoring chance generation (per-minute and absolute) since the stats have been tracked in the last 11 years.

Maybe, if we also consider his production during his team's quest for the playoffs vs. his production after their playoff chances were done.

 

[Laineux]

Who was McDavid beating? A 29 year old Crosby

29 year old Crosby who had one of the better seasons of his career.

The biggest reason why he only paced for 97 points instead of 110 points like in his younger days is that powerplay opportunities were/are way down from 05-11. His Pens had 257 powerplay opportunities in 2016-17, which is between 70 and 100 less than what they had in 07-08 (357), 08-09 (347), and 09-10 (327). That's plenty of room to explain a 10-15 point difference in points.

The narrative that McDavid beat some old washed up Crosby is false and should die. He beat prime Crosby having a prime Crosby level regular season. Now I don't deny that Crosby had the better year when you combine playoffs and regular season together but that's besides the point.

 

[daver]

29 year old Crosby who had one of the better seasons of his career.

The biggest reason why he only paced for 97 points instead of 110 points like in his younger days is that powerplay opportunities were/are way down from 05-11. His Pens had 257 powerplay opportunities in 2016-17, which is between 70 and 100 less than what they had in 07-08 (357), 08-09 (347), and 09-10 (327). That's plenty of room to explain a 10-15 point difference in points.

The narrative that McDavid beat some old washed up Crosby is false and should die. He beat prime Crosby having a prime Crosby level regular season. Now I don't deny that Crosby had the better year when you combine playoffs and regular season together but that's besides the point.

In his younger days he was pacing for 120 to 130 points on the strength of outpacing the league in ES scoring at a higher level than McDavid did this year. This has been pointed out to you many times.

The narrative that McDavid beat up a close to his peak Crosby is false and should also die.

 

[Laineux]

In his younger days he was pacing for 120 to 130 points on the strength of outpacing the league in ES scoring at a higher level than McDavid did this year. This has been pointed out to you many times.

The narrative that McDavid beat up a close to his peak Crosby is false and should also die.

In seasons with 40, 20 and 35 game samples. Surely we're not crediting Crosby with actually achieving those things over a 82 game season?

 

[daver]

In seasons with 40, 20 and 35 game samples. Surely we're not crediting Crosby with actually achieving those things over a 82 game season?

Surely we aren't using pace to make your argument then dismissing it when it doesn't fit your narrative.

In terms of PPG dominance, Crosby's 2017 season was not close to his best season. His 2007, 2008, 2009, 2013 and 2014 seasons were better and not due to a high PP point total.

Last year was middle of the road even if we completely dismiss his partial seasons which is intellectually dishonest.

I think McDavid's Art Rosses and Crosby's 2007 are quite close. I highly doubt that a Crosby vs. McDavid after three seasons is going to be a key argument in a career comparison so we are really splitting hairs here.

 

[Laineux]

Surely we aren't using pace to make your argument then dismissing it when it doesn't fit your narrative.

In terms of PPG dominance, Crosby's 2017 season was not close to his best season. His 2007, 2008, 2009, 2013 and 2014 seasons were better and not due to a high PP point total.

Last year was middle of the road even if we completely dismiss his partial seasons which is intellectually dishonest.

On pace for 75 games is obviously much more indicative than on pace for 22 games. 110 points is something Crosby has proven to be capable of while 130 points isn't. Should've worded: prime Crosby was capable of scoring 110 points but when adjusted to differences in league scoring environment his 16-17 seasons pace, which McDavid beat, was just as good.

In terms of points per game domination over #10 Crosby's gaps in those seasons go:
16-17: 26.6%
13-14 28.8%
12-13 40%
09-10 18.4%
08-09 25.2%
07-08 18%
06-07 27.7%

His points per game domination over the field seems to match up just fine in 16-17 against any season with more than 41 games in his career.

Bottom line: regardless of the amount of credit you give to Crosby for lapping the field in 10-13 in terms of points per game, his 16-17 season matches up very well when lined up against his other prime seasons. Not above, not below. Typical prime Crosby, which McDavid beat.

 

[ImporterExporter]

29 year old Crosby who had one of the better seasons of his career.

The biggest reason why he only paced for 97 points instead of 110 points like in his younger days is that powerplay opportunities were/are way down from 05-11. His Pens had 257 powerplay opportunities in 2016-17, which is between 70 and 100 less than what they had in 07-08 (357), 08-09 (347), and 09-10 (327). That's plenty of room to explain a 10-15 point difference in points.

The narrative that McDavid beat some old washed up Crosby is false and should die. He beat prime Crosby having a prime Crosby level regular season. Now I don't deny that Crosby had the better year when you combine playoffs and regular season together but that's besides the point.

Crosby's prime was when he was putting up a 50 goal season and was on pace for 132 points and 64 goals in 2010-11 at exactly the the halfway mark. The only reason why Sid isn't already 5th place all time on many lists is because he lost large parts of 3 of his most prime aged seasons to freak/intentional injuries, which almost surely cost him 2 Hart's and 2 Art Ross trophies. 2007, 2010, 2012. In 2012 it literally took the field (MSL and Ovechkin) an entire month to catch up to him in the scoring race. Let's say Crosby hit 120-130 points in 2011, which is very realistic considering what he did through 41 games. You know the Art Ross winner that year was Dan Sedin with 104. 104. Sid could have dropped all the way to 1 PPG the rest of the way and still won the Art Ross.

I'm sorry, but 29 year old Crosby wasn't in his prime. I've watched his entire career to a T and the most dominant offensive period of his career was 2007 through 2013. His per game numbers over that span were absurd. 563 points in 389 games = 1.45 PPG.

 

[daver]

On pace for 75 games is obviously much more indicative than on pace for 22 games. 110 points is something Crosby has proven to be capable of while 130 points isn't. Should've worded: prime Crosby was capable of scoring 110 points but when adjusted to differences in league scoring environment his 16-17 seasons pace, which McDavid beat, was just as good.

And what about 2013 when he played 3/4 of the season or his 41 game season. Nice of you to selectively omit those in your response.

I disagree that the level of competition in 2007 was better than 2017 and 2018 so your response to the other poster was warranted. I am saying you are going to far to prove 2017 had better competition.

And this really is a silly debate to have. I stand by my comment that McDavid should not slot in where Lindros is after just three seasons of hockey that were not as good as Lindros' best and with no playoff resume to speak of.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Do you think one of these factors could be that in McDavid's third year Oilers had the least amount of powerplay opportunities by any team within a 82 game season since PPOs have been tracked and he lead the league in ES points with the biggest % margin since Wayne Gretzky and completely shattered what anyone else has achieved in even strength scoring chance generation (per-minute and absolute) since the stats have been tracked in the last 11 years.

Happens when the GM trades away speed and talent -Hall and Eberle. Little need to hold,hook,trip or interfere with the remaining turtles.

 

[Laineux]

And this really is a silly debate to have. I stand by my comment that McDavid should not slot in where Lindros is after just three seasons of hockey that were not as good as Lindros' best and with no playoff resume to speak of.

Well Lindros has a more impressive career resume and I don't think McDavid should get ranked as high as him, but I'd say McDavid's best two seasons already match if not surpass Lindros best two seasons.

 

[daver]

Well Lindros has a more impressive career resume and I don't think McDavid should get ranked as high as him, but I'd say McDavid's best two seasons already match if not surpass Lindros best two seasons.

Offensive production is debatable, overall impact is not.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Happens when the GM trades away speed and talent -Hall and Eberle. Little need to hold,hook,trip or interfere with the remaining turtles.

Watch more Oilers that is not remotely true

 

[Canadiens1958]

Watch more Oilers that is not remotely true

Name the Oiler forwards besides McDavid that can actually skate.

Team does not have a true winger that can play the lead winger role.

When Lucic and Kassian play over 27:00 per game combined you have a major skating issue on the team as you are basically giving up odd man offensive opportunities.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Name the Oiler forwards besides McDavid that can actually skate.

Team does not have a true winger that can play the lead winger role.

When Lucic and Kassian play over 27:00 per game combined you have a major skating issue on the team as you are basically giving up odd man offensive opportunities.

Drasaitl, Strome, Cagguila, Kassian (he can skate, showing your ignorance towards the Oilers), RNH all skate fine. This doesn't even tap into our bottom line Khaira, Slepyshev, Cammerleri also all skate fine.

Before we traded him Maroon couldn't and now Lucic is the only skating boat anchor we have

 

[Michael Farkas]

The Oilers are the slowest team in the league (maybe San Jose?). It must be weird to game plan for the Oilers...who employ the fastest (fastest relevant player...Michael Grabner is not relevant) and maybe most technically skilled player in the league and he's surrounded by probably the slowest group in the NHL. Their defense is not very talented and they have, what, one player that can carry the puck one line? So it's a full center breakout every time...Draisaitl has struggled to carry a line by himself for extended periods of time and he's not a great skater himself (though, his skating has improved dramatically since his draft year). Lucic can't skate, Strome isn't a good skater (no pop to his stride), same with Nuge...Maroon was there, he's the slowest top-six forward in the league...Cammy clearly has nothing left in that department...Kassian is actually a plus skater in this group haha

The struggle is to keep McDavid in front of you...there's no chance that the others can get behind you...it's difficult for them to support the play, wingers and defense, because the speed differential is so great. It allows you to "island" off McDavid...the only issue with that is that no one in the league can handle him 1 on 1, so still scores a boat load of points (I mean, he's unstoppable) but the rest of the team is also-rans...McDavid had 200 points this year, and they had like 1 or 2 guys score more than 40 or whatever...that's a joke...

 

[ResilientBeast]

The Oilers are the slowest team in the league (maybe San Jose?). It must be weird to game plan for the Oilers...who employ the fastest (fastest relevant player...Michael Grabner is not relevant) and maybe most technically skilled player in the league and he's surrounded by probably the slowest group in the NHL. Their defense is not very talented and they have, what, one player that can carry the puck one line? So it's a full center breakout every time...Draisaitl has struggled to carry a line by himself for extended periods of time and he's not a great skater himself (though, his skating has improved dramatically since his draft year). Lucic can't skate, Strome isn't a good skater (no pop to his stride), same with Nuge...Maroon was there, he's the slowest top-six forward in the league...Cammy clearly has nothing left in that department...Kassian is actually a plus skater in this group haha

The struggle is to keep McDavid in front of you...there's no chance that the others can get behind you...it's difficult for them to support the play, wingers and defense, because the speed differential is so great. It allows you to "island" off McDavid...the only issue with that is that no one in the league can handle him 1 on 1, so still scores a boat load of points (I mean, he's unstoppable) but the rest of the team is also-rans...McDavid had 200 points this year, and they had like 1 or 2 guys score more than 40 or whatever...that's a joke...

Everyone you talked about aren't super skaters but they aren't slow they are probably average

Nuge is actually a decent skater